In flight transmitter programming.
 

We have just had a very healthy and enlightening discussion on hot fuelling, I think we all learned something for it and safety of our operations can only be improved as a result of such a debate. Here's another one for debate. I read recently on one of these threads that someone was actually changing flight control settings on his transmitter whilst the machine was airborne. I've seen this done before in the UK and was apalled , just one wrong button pressed and the model could become unflyable., I've certainly done it in the workshop, probably others have too.

Any comments on this practice?

Regards,

David Gladwin.

RE: In flight transmitter programming.
 

Definitely worse than hot fueling. I have done both. Not the greatest idea, but doable. Not on anything fast like a jet.

RE: In flight transmitter programming.
 

Anything that takes your eye's and mind off what your airplane is doing is a bit foolish. Especially at the speeds that these things can go. Be smart and safe and bring your jet down and then make the changes.

Cheers,

RE: In flight transmitter programming.
 

I think it rather depends on exatcly what is being done, and why.

Let's consider the example of someone making a mistake such that they take off with reversed ailerons. Perhaps the pilot is able to keep the aircraft somewhat stable in the air such that it is not an immediate danger to all around (i.e. it does not need to be dumped for the safety of spectators or others), but the pilot knows that he will not be able to land the aircraft set up as it is. As long as the reprogramming to reverse the aileron channel can be done with the model suitably distanced from anyone who might get hurt if anything else goes wrong (see below for an example), I see no reason why the reprogramming attempt should not be made (by a helper - not the pilot) - any crash caused by making another mistake would presumably be away from the crowd and be no worse a risk than if the pilot had elected to "sacrifice" the aircraft the moment he realized that he had a problem. Now, ideally we would not ever get into a scenario like this, but on the basis of developing contingencies for various "what if" scenarios as my RAF instructor used to drill into me, this would seem like a course of action that has a chance of improving the odds for a successful outcome to a flight gone bad.

BTW, I have actually seen an instance similar to the scenario described above, and the story in this case was rather amusing. In this case though, we have a recently soloed pilot on his first low-winger, let's call him Fred, then we have the club VP - Jerry.

Fred : This low-wing stuff is harder than it seems ... I can turn left ok, but my right-hand turns suck. Can you come out and help me figure out what I'm doing wrong?
Jerry : Sure - take it off and show me exactly what you mean, then I'll know where you need help
Fred takes off, demonstrates circuits in both directions, wit the left ones being ok and the right ones being barely survivable. Jerry now takes the TX to demonstrate the correct way to do things.
Jerry : Holy S**T !!! Your ailerons are reversed !! Didn't you realise that ???
Fred : No - I guess I just kinda move the sticks one way, and when the model goes the wrong way, I move the sticks the other way.
Jerry : You're right - you are flying purely by reflex, rather by conditioning like I am, so it seems more natural to you. Given that you've been doing that for a couple of flights now, you need to take the airplane back and land it - your reflex approach means the aircraft can survive until we get it down & fixed, whereas I'd probably just stuff it at some point in the approach when habit takes over if I try to land it.
Fred : No Way Man !! You've got me worried now - I can't handle that - YOU need to land it for me.
A couple of minutes of such arguing continues, with Jerry concentrating incredibly hard to keep the aircraft airborne and away from the pits, then Fred has a stroke of genius...
Fred : I know - there are some switches behind the battery pack that let me reverse the channels. You keep flying the plane and I'll pull the battery out to get to the switches, and all will be well !
Jerry : WAIT ! For heavens sake make sure you don't disconnect the battery by pulling on it to hard !
So Jerry's standing there holding the TX at about waist level for Fred to get easy access, while Fred kneels down in front of him and pulls the battery out, and brings his head in reallyclose so that he can read the lettering on the inside of the back panel. Meanwhile, the people on the sidelines don't know what's hgoing on and just see this standing/kneeling combination which looks just like the scene from Police Academy where Commandant Lassard is standing at the Lectern and a young lady who is hiding in there starts providing certin services to him.... !
Fred : Hmmm - channel 2 or 3 ? ...
Jerry : WHAT ?? If you don't know then please ...
CLICK !!!
Jerry : WRONG ONE !! You JUST REVERSED THE ELEVATOR !!! AAAH JEEZE ....
Jerry is now almost biting his tongue off with the sheer concentration of handling reversed ailerons AND reversed elevators.
<pause>, CLICK, <pause> CLICK, then all is well and the model lands ok but Jerry is unable to move from the flightstation for a couple of minutes due to his suddenly weak knees.

The above is a true story from the SCCMAS Tomcats club.

Gordon

RE: In flight transmitter programming.
 

I had that happen to me once upon a time. I left the ailerons neutral and landed using the rudder for the needed left /right corrections. Wasn't a jet tho. LOL

RE: In flight transmitter programming.
 

OK I'll bite on this one. While I was dialing in my latest Kingcat a buddy of mine and also a very accomplished jet pilot and I set up the JR pilot link. While I was tweaking settings in the master transmitter he was flying the airplane. I would take control back over and check the changes. I was adjusting the rudder to ailerons mixes, and rudder to elevator mixes for knife edge flight so it made good sense to do this while we were airborne so that MINOR changes could be made. I would look at this as similar to trimming an airplane, and not as programming. Now adding mixes, etc.....that's a little more involved than I would want to get while airborne.

RE: In flight transmitter programming.
 

i had a friend that lost his F3B glider while he programmed the plane wrong on the ground...(too much switches on the radio...)

myself i hate programming and i have the minimal switches on my radio, so i set my radio in my personal mode..
and everybody programm his radio in his own method (user defined mixers, or self made mixers...)

I cannot imagine how somebody can, while i'm flying, adjust my radio, or viceversa...
the only stuff that is adjustable are the trims, if you while flying is too much dangerous to take away the fingers of the stiks...
but programming...[:'(]

RE: In flight transmitter programming.
 

Multiplex radios are designed to be partially programmable in flight, and safely.

Parameters may be assigned to a rotary adjuster and then the value adjusted in flight without your fingers going near the main programming buttons. The sort of parameter you would assign to the adjuster would be dual rates, mixer settings, trim offsets, expo settings and so on. Then in flight for example you can roll to knife edge and push on the rudder, as the plane starts to pitch you just turn the dial to set the elevator mix to perfection in a couple of seconds.

H.

RE: In flight transmitter programming.
 

Damn, Harry beat me to it! The MPX capability for in-flight adjustment is safe, as long as it is used safely. No need for a buddy or a buddy box.

RE: In flight transmitter programming.
 

I always program changes during the first flights of a plane, you simply get immediate feedback. I'm using a Graupner MC20 and my father to do it....when flying, i call the changes i want and keep on flying while he is working the buttons. This works great for throws and expo, i would not do it for mixing and such, though. And be sure the guy working the radio knows what he is doing on that system....my dad runs the same system and i trust him fully, would not let anybody else do it while i'm flying.

RE: In flight transmitter programming.
 

I have done inflight programming a few times, If your desperate just fly it high and do one menu a pass, but mostly I have had another experienced pilot over my should that knows the radio as good as I do to make the adjustment, and if you fly helis....I leave mine in the menu screen on inital runs.

RE: In flight transmitter programming.
 

Hi all
well last Sunday i was flying my 30% extra and all was well on the ground, when i was flying and ready to land the engine would not idle down enough so i had my friend work the ailerons and elevator stick while i was programming new throttle throws all went very smooth while programming. I would recommend not doing it by yourself it was safe and easy for me to concentrate on the programming while my buddy was flying it.

just be smart and safe in all tight situations sometimes these things just have be done.

Gordon

RE: In flight transmitter programming.
 

Some radios -and the 8103 comes to mind - have 2 arrows on the selection menu. They are different, but small enough to be confused - even without the duress of a difficult flight!

What I do, is work with what I have, even if it means going to 2 channels, to get the aircraft down, and secured off the active runway. Then I make the Tx changes and try again...

RE: In flight transmitter programming.
 

Changing flight control settings on his transmitter whilst the machine is airborne would be cool if you are flying in the desert and you are not faint of hart, but it can be used as a last resource to save a doomed plane... some time ago, a friend jet pilot was helping another guy to fly a
warbird zero arf, until it started to loose his elevators response. I was at his side, and started to increase it´s atv and subtrim until it leveled off. then, he landed it just using the throttle. Later was found that the solder on the elevators connecting rod got loose and fell apart when touched .. lucky
guys!


Enrique

RE: In flight transmitter programming.
 

What about pre-flight checks ? ? ? ?

Surley then there would be no reason why a control surface was reversed or not centred or the correct amount of throw . . . etc . . .etc.


Just my thoughts on that.

RE: In flight transmitter programming.
 

That's why I said in my earlier post "Now, ideally we would not ever get into a scenario like this, but on the basis of developing contingencies for various "what if" scenarios as my RAF instructor used to drill into me, this would seem like a course of action that has a chance of improving the odds for a successful outcome to a flight gone bad. "

People WILL make mistakes no matter how much we wish otherwise (e.g. perhaps wiggling the sticks and noting surface movement without noting the direction - or checking the direction of movement but normally doing it while standing behind the model but doing it one day while standing in front of the model instead, etc., etc). So, when that happens the question becomes one of "what to do next ?"

Gordon

RE: In flight transmitter programming.
 

Seems to me the first course of business with reversed ailerons on a jet takeoff is to shut the turbine down. I cannot imagine 2 guys wrestling with a radio/plane with an out of control 600 degree C firestarter darting around.

RE: In flight transmitter programming.
 

David's question didn't limit itself to turbines though...

RE: In flight transmitter programming.
 

Every one here has different flying skills... If you don't know your radio and have to use
your bifocals to program it, I don't think programing in the air is for you...

15 years ago I took off a prop plane with reversed ailersons and almost crashed it
but at the last min I pushed rev stick and flew the plane up to alitude with rev ailerons...
Because I knew the radio like the back of my hand, at 1000 feet, with help, I took my eyes
off the plane and rev channel 1 in less than 2 sec...

Now just because I can do it, there is no way I will tell someone else what they sould or should not do...

The key here is to know what you can and can't do.. I like the way David trimed his plane
with the PMix, with a buddy card... That is a good idea.... But the key is David was not rushed
and he knew what he was changing.

I think its more important to not to over estimate your abilities..

Eddie Weeks

RE: In flight transmitter programming.
 

Turbine or non turbine?

RE: In flight transmitter programming.
 

This is a jet column but really it applies to just about any model. What I was really concerned about is the practice I have seen of one guy flying the model (jet) with his budddy leaning over his shoulder changng settings on the Tx. This came to mind in the last few days when I was programming my Hawk and hit a wrong button and got exactly the opposite response to that required. some of the buttons on the 10x are quite small.

Hearing of the Caravan crash, reversed ailerons, and remembering the reveresed yaw damper crash of a Rafale , both at FJ, brings home the vital importance of a full, free and correct sense , control surface check before EVERY take off . A week or two ago I assembled an Astir (full size sailplane) and as usual and as I am required by law, an independent control function check was obtained before I would or could sign it off for flight, and do the check flight ! Same practice should be done with any R/C model but especially with high powered jets.

Even if only a minor modification to a programme is required it is distinctly posible to get something quite different with potentially catastrophic results. For that reason I feel that any adjustment to tx. programmes, particularly as radios become even more complex and capable, (things have changed since my PCS and Kraft days!) should be made ONLY with the model on the ground. Obviusly all bets are off if the model is in difficulty such as the scenario Gordon suggests.

In this hobby we are still pretty much "self regulating" so far as safety is concernend , and I very much want to keep it that way, but I do think we have constantly to keep under review what we do and how we do it, particularly with the incredible growth in gas turbine modelling brought about by ARTFs and ultra reliable and simple to operate engines. That "constant review" is what has made full size jet operations so safe, I dont think we can do any better than to follow the example of military and civil jet operators.

Regards,

David Gladwin

RE: In flight transmitter programming.
 

David

Consider this info for flight testing and changing your programing or flying style.

Futuba uses the upper left switch as a flight condition switch most modelers aren't aware of what this actually does but here are a few uses.

The switch has 3 positions for 3 different conditions you can change AFR, Expo, Rates, throttle curves, Idle ups, or any one of many features that will actually change the way your model feels all with one switch.

I first used Flight Conditions for my helicopter flying then I quickly discovered I could Tailor my acrobatic planes for the specific flight maneuvers with the condition switch.

Now with the Jets I found that I can set a T.O or landing parameter in one flight condition and acrobatic in another and even dial up and down the Gyro gain all remotely depending what I am trying to do. All this can be preprogrammed and a simple switch moved to see if you like the new flight parameters. This way I don't need to reprogram things in flight.


David isn't that kinda like when we select flaps 5 and have the use of those inboard ailerons only now with the flip of a switch we can lesson there effect if condition dictate.


Take Care
Ian

RE: In flight transmitter programming.
 

Ian,

Thats exactly what I have been doing since the 10x first arrived on the market, although I believe it was also incorporated on the JR 10sx 11 . On JR its called flight mode, there is a choice of 5 and completely removes the need to reprogramme on the screen, in flight, using those tiny buttons. It looks quite complex in the manual but after you've used it a few times its really quite straightforwrd.

A lot, perhaps most people, never use flight modes. I saw the JR 10X reviewed in R/C Modeller some years ago, flight modes were never even mentioned but I believe this is one of the most powerful and useful programmes on the 10X.

Regards, David Gladwin.

RE: In flight transmitter programming.
 

Be very careful.... if it were me I wouldn't do any programing while flying! I wouldn't fly unless your in the flight screen only!!! Years ago I dumb thumb /minded a real nice pattern plane into the ground by accidentally leaving an older JR 10 channel in the trim offset screen!

Before starting up and taxing out I went to the trim offset screen to get the trims centered from a prior trim flight. You guess it I forgot to go back to the flight screen..... taxed out, took off..... retracted the gear .... and started the flight timer!!! But when your in the trim offset screen the timer button becomes the save offset button!! cool huh! When you push that button all control inputs are taken off line (part of the trim offset function) it's kinda like turning the radio off.... only I didn't realize what I had done....

Boy that was a sick feeling that I hadn't felt for many many years..... just no control at all.... well splat... that pattern plane dug a big whole... luckily I had made a slight left turn and was pointed out into good safe airspace with nothing but grass and dirt below. About 5 seconds after it hit the ground, I looked at my transmitter and then it came to me.... da how dumb can you be.....
Lee