Red Arrow Hawk
 

Well here it is, my Skymaster Hawk. 26#, Ram 1000, JR radios, working gear doors. Still need to test fly after I get my motor set up and running correctly. Hope to make it's public devue at Austin in late April.

RE: Red Arrow Hawk
 

Looks realy nice.
The gear doors realy do well for its apearence.

Good luck on the test flight [8D]

RE: Red Arrow Hawk
 

Looks good Tom. Glad your going to make to Austin in a few weeks. I understand Mike Youngling will be at Austin also.

See ya then.

RE: Red Arrow Hawk
 

Hi Tom,

Nice Hawk. I have a Ram 1000 and in the process of getting a Hawk from SM. Could you post more pictures of how you set up your RAM1000 in the hawk? I will really appreciate your help. What JR servo do you use?

Let me know thanks,

Hawk Flyer

RE: Red Arrow Hawk
 

Mike,
I would but I had to remove it just after I made the pix. Lost a bearing during the set up. It's already in the mail back to RTI. The motor installallation and the gear doors were a PITA. Use the big blocks for the jetcat and glue them the fuse motor mounts to get the motor to set high enough. You will have to cut some of the intake off and grind away a place for the temp probe to enter intake also, you will also have to cut a hole for the starter motor to stick through the intake. I centered the motor up in the intake and then centered the tailpipe on the motor. The one thing I still dont like is the cone of the Ram sticks too far into the tailpipe for my liking. I would prefer to have about a 1/4 gap between the cone and the tailpipe to get the injector effect. The servo pockets are real small and the servos set at an angle in the pocket. I used 3421s on ail,rud. 1- 8611 on stab with the two pushrod set up and 8101s on the flaps. I only have my flap movement at 25mm max and the 8101 on 6v should handle it. If you do gear doors on yours give me a call they are a lot of work and I'll give you some hints. 210-887-5073

Tom

RE: Red Arrow Hawk
 

Tom,
Nice looking plane. Sorry about the ram.

Hope to see you in aystin.

RE: Red Arrow Hawk
 

Tom, very cool! Look forward to seeing you in Austin!

RE: Red Arrow Hawk
 

Caution on your servo selection. You need TWO servos for the stabilisers, 8511s. Thats a big rudder, suggest at least a 9411 I use 8511. For ailerons I used 9411s and for flaps 8511s.
Flies beautiifully, Regards, David Gladwin
In the US 8511s =8611s.

RE: Red Arrow Hawk
 

Hi Tom,

Thanks for the tips. Let me know if you plan to sell this hawk, less turbine, in the near future. give me a call 949-678-1094, or email me at [email protected]

Mike

RE: Red Arrow Hawk
 

Good Job Tom!!

Mike, if you like Hawk with red arrow scheme, we still have a few in stock.

RE: Red Arrow Hawk
 

Hi Eric,

I need a RTF, ready to fly hawk. I don't have time to build, even fueling the plane is too much work for me! :D. ARF is still too much work for me. I need a gas and fly plane. Any suggestions?

Thanks,

Mike

RE: Red Arrow Hawk
 

Looks very beautiful - but where are the wing fences and the dorsal fins beneath the fuselage?

Do you have a nice smooth runway for high speed landings?

If you intend to fly it without them, I hope you will share your experience of the flight characteristics with us all. Ali flew a white version in US colors over here, without wing fences etc.. However he did not fly it as low and as slow as he flies his new Red Arrows version, which, of course, does have the fences. In theory they should make difference, in practice I should like to hear your verdict.

RE: Red Arrow Hawk
 

Henry,
I was excited to post the pix. Before the first flight the fences and stabs will be installed. Sharp eye!

Tom

RE: Red Arrow Hawk
 

Tom

I had not meant to be either sharp eyed or sharp tongued - just interested.

What were your thoughts on balancing the tailplane? If you balance the tailplane, the backend of the model gets heavier and then you have to balance the front and then the whole model gets heavier. Since this is the area where the model and the full size have their biggest variance, you may well feel that mechanical balancing is not worth the hassle.

In my view, the model's tailplane is not aerodynamically balanced either, and the unbalanced forces will rise in proportion to the square of the speed. David Gladwin's advice about using TWO heavy duty servos to control it possibly confirms my rather theoretical view. However the proof will be more apparent when someone installs a Merlin, Jetcat Titan or suchlike and starts to explore the upper speed envelope. If you, or other owners, have the opportunity to fit a flight recorder (as per Tom Wilkinson's Eurosport in RC Jet International), I would be very interested to learn whether the elevator servo current varies with the square of the speed.

RE: Red Arrow Hawk
 

Henry,
Not taken as sharp tongued. I meant the sharp eye as a compliment. Most people wouldnt have noticed. i've been toying around with the idea of removing the stabs and balancing them before I fly it. I will have about 3 weeks to decide as my motor is in the shop. I agree - it's the smart thing to do.

TP

RE: Red Arrow Hawk
 

Ali here.
Funny I have never noticed the wing fences on any of the 3 Hawks that I have built and flown to date. My prototype model that I flew (T-45 colors) never had them fitted and I am sure if you have seen the videos you will have no doubt that the slow speed handling was perfectly acceptable, if not darn amazing. My latest model (Red Arrows) Scheme has worked out a little heavier due to a heavier power plant but as Henry confirms flys very slowly. I really don't think you could ask for any more slow speed stability from a jet but I am going to try some up aileron deflection to see what change I get. Then I might fir the wing strakes.
I am really reluctant to fit these as they look to me as a part that is just waiting to get knocked off and with the on the wing becomes a pain to transport.
As for tail plane. Again all of the hawks that I have built/ flown have all been with on JR 8511 on the stab, and over 22 hours of flying with no trouble. Having said this I did recently update my red arrows hawk for two 8511's on the stab and found that it did give the model a more solid feel on the elevator stick at all speeds.
As far as elevator response with motors like the Titan and suchlike. I really think customers will be on their own on this, as the model was never intended for such large power output turbines, and we strongly suggest against overpowering the hawk in such a way. The model is perfectly capable of withstanding flight loads in the envelope that it was designed for. Why would you want to know how the model performs well outside of these. I am sure I can get any model out there, designed and sold by any manufacturer and overstressed the airframe with to large an engine or irresponsible flying thus causing it to break.
As far as balancing. Again none of the hawks that I have built or flown have had a mass balanced tail. I have contemplated it but I just cant bring myself to add all that weight to the tail, knowing I will have to compensate it at the front. Once again I have never come across any issues with tail control at low or high speed.

RE: Red Arrow Hawk
 

Ali, I have one on the way. I too was considering up aileron deflection with flaps (and perhaps even trying down with flaps). It will be sometime before I am in the air though, due to work. You shall no doubt get it done first. If you could, please post your results here or somewhere for all to see.

Thanks.

RE: Red Arrow Hawk
 

My friend lost his Hawk from a nasty tip stall. It would be nice to hear from some other newbie flyers on this jet.
V..

RE: Red Arrow Hawk
 

Ok it was me, I have built and crashed 2 skymaster hawks. Both due to uncontrolled tip stall. In addition, while a very accomplished jet pilot was flying #1 hawk, he took it into a bank, everything looked normal and bamb!!! tip stall, he had enough height to recover but never the less I want to know who is flying this bird, how many flights and any dead stick landings with details of flight charactoristics.

I love the plane and will probably get #3, but i'd like to know is it only me??????


manufacturers can only improve a design if they know there is a problem.

Kevin

RE: Red Arrow Hawk
 

Do you get paid to do all the Beta testing for Skymaster or or you just a really nice guy:) Scott

RE: Red Arrow Hawk
 

You do not say whether you had fitted wing fences and the dorsal fins beneath the fuselage? On the full size the surface area in front of and behind the CG is meant to be in exact balance. On the military version the addition of armament surface area had to be balanced by additional surface area at the back. The handling was then unaffected. My view is that wing fences. preferably somewhat larger than scale are an important anti-tiipstall device.

Murphy's law, of course, predicts that you had carefully fitted them, whereas Ali, who has had no trouble, did not!

Can you recall whether the disasters took place at the beginning, middle or end of the flight and where you had the CG? The fuel load can move the CG somewhat.

RE: Red Arrow Hawk
 

Hello Henry, you have a point. In both kits I had recieved only one dorsal fin, which I did not install in the building of #1 and #2. As far as the wing fences, none where supplied, and no reference in manual was given that these needed to be installed??????? In the crash of the first bird, it was after 3 to 4 minutes of flight, and on the second it occured on its maiden shortly after take off and when a roll took place a flame out occured. In this case I could not bank the plane to bring it back to the field. Every time I would bank the wings for a turn, and gave up elevator, she would stall???? I had many friends witness the second crash with disbelief that the plane would not turn???

again, anyone else willing tell review their findings, (NOT BASHING) but info the manufacturer can use to improve (if needed) this plane.

Also, Henry, if you can, can you take some photos of your tail fence and wing fences you have installed. Thank you.

Kevin

RE: Red Arrow Hawk
 

Kevin,

Do you remember if the flaps where up or down?
It seems, from the other threads, that they have great effects on the plane and care is needed to operate them., also did you have one or two servos for the tailplane op, and what servos?

I'm also interested in this one.....;)

Florent

RE: Red Arrow Hawk
 

Hi Guys Ali Here 3 Demon is my Home computer name
Sorry to hear of your loss/Losses KMARKS
I have (As you know) Done a lot of flying with my two hawks. On my Original I used to Regularly take it up and cut the motor to glide it in. I also had a flame out last weekend on my new one with a full front tank and although I missed judges the grass to Runway merge (Poor Piloting) I had no sign of a flick or resistance to turn. In fact I would have been better off if I had left one of the turns out and glided straight onto the grass. But instead I s'd one more than I should. [&o]None of my hawks have ever had the wing fences. I am sure they can only improve the performance (Reduce stall speed and reaction) Based on experience I had with an old jim fox hawk that was a bi*ch without the wing fences. So by all means put them on if you want to, but I would in no way say the stall behavior without them was vicious or even nasty.
I think the problem may have been the C of G. If the model is too nose heavy this will give a similar reaction of lack of control as you report. especially if the model is pretty full of fuel. This could be my fault as I gave the C of G suggestions for the original hawk and I think I was overly cautious with the recommendations. I will check mine again in the next week and report here what I am flying it with.
We always appreciate the comments and I have never worked with a company that is more keen to improve the product than Skymaster. We hers all acknowledge that the product we sell can always do with improvement and are very keen to hear from all of you customers on the bad and sometimes the good points. What you like, and what you don't. And as always what you would like to see improved.
It takes a lot of work to transfer modifications back to the factory due to various language and logistic hurdles. So any help you guys can give is much appreciated.

RE: Red Arrow Hawk
 

Hello,
I'm Piers, Henry's son, posting on Dad's logon having read this thread. Dad and I are a bit keen on Hawks, even verging on overkeen, as we currently have four, 2 turbine, 1 prop driven (Peterborough Models) and one PSS!!! We also have one kit waiting to be built, so we are trying to rein in our Hawk tendencies! We've spoken to lots of people about Hawks, Jim Fox, Paul Gray and John (I think it's John - can't remember his surname, but he works at Inwoods and was involved in designing the original Jim Fox Hawk!) and they all agree that the wing fences make a big difference. If you read up on the aerodynamics, the theory is that the stall starts at the root and will spread down the wing to the tip: a wing fence will prevent the stall spreading from the root, where it starts, to the tip, so you can then have a stall at the root and the tip will still be flying, providing you with lift and control at the tips, even when the centre of the wing has stalled and has little lift. That's the theory on full size and it can be achieved with fences, a slot or a notched leading edge, such as the Hawker Hunter has.

Our only experience of a Hawk without wing fences was indeed disastrous, inexplicably, hence our enquiries as to whether the fences were of use: it was a relatively low speed take off and we went into oscillating tip stalls. The model was damaged but survived and we fitted wing fences and have not had a recurrence yet, but then we can't guarantee that we've had exactly the same conditions since then...

I have to say that Ali's Skymaster Hawks fly far more slowly than ours will and look far more stable at low speeds and that's without the wing fences - we've seen both the T45 and the Red Arrows ones and we were very impressed with both. Very. But then it's a bigger wing area and a lighter construction than ours and I'll bet the wing loading is a lot lower - but that's what you want!!! They both fly very well at low speeds, amazingly well for Hawks, which are notorious tip stallers at low speeds.

Personally, I would always, always, put the wing fences on a Hawk of mine: we've dead sticked and had to land with gear up and yes, it does sometimes damage the wing fences, but they're not hard to repair or replace: certainly they're easier to repair than the damage usually incurred from a bad stall. Both of Ali's Hawks fly beautifully and I can see that they dont appear to need them though.

I'll be interested to hear where Ali's got his CoG, maybe that is the difference. It certainly sounds like an interesting puzzle and that makes for a lot of fun thought for us all!!!
cheers
Piers