DAVID R.
 

David,
I will stand by my comments in regard to pilots full responsibility to pre flight a model, if the wing fold mechanism had been checked right this crash should have been avoided, as to the second panther crash, please enlighten us with your superior wisdom...?
I personally would not have installed such a feature, if this was my aircraft, just not worth the risk....

Yes you do deserve to crash and burn, if you do not pre flight your aircraft..... Geeez who can argue with that??????


Cheers - Marty

Preflights
 

Wow! I couldn't agree more with the pilot's responsibility in preflights.

As a former Army pilot, I would always preflight. Even after my crewchief's extensive inspection. It takes ~30 minutes to preflight an AH-64 and I would consider it the most valuable 30 minutes spent!

I've carried this mentality into my modeling, with particular emphisis on my turbine birds. How much money is a 10 minute look-see worth to you?

I've witnessed modelers unpack, assemble start and fly their aircraft all within a 10 minute period without a second thought to preflight. Scary!

I'm not saying every modeler is like this. Nor am I saying that every model needs a 10 page checklist. I am saying that todays large prop and turbine powered models are highly sophisticated miniatures with many complex sub systems and operating procedures akin to their big brothers.

Pilot's of these models owe it to themselves, as well as onlookers and bystanders, to know that everything is working reliably and as it should. Forget ego. The last thing anyone wants is to lose their model or seriously injure themselves (or somebody else) over failed a $3.00 widget that could have been caught by simply putting an eyeball on it.

My .02 cents

CG

What happened to CAI?
 

A CAI Panther was built by a professional builder, the airplane was built according to the CAI plans, the airplane was flown several times sucessfully. The wing mechanism folded on one flight and the airplane was lost. Nothing spectacular like crashing into a house.

Ozcan,

You don't have to be so antagonistic with your comments and I quote "superior wisdom". I just happen to know the individual that owned the Panther that crashed, no superior wisdom. As far as the risk factor, well I can't argue with you there, I just would not have installed that option either. As to whether some guy deserves to crash his airplane.....well I disagree. Do you not think the manufacturer has any responsibility to insure that his products operate safely??? What about the engines you are obviously repping for, I can't inspect my turbine wheel prior to every flight, if you should have some kind of defect in the wheel and it blows up and kills some poor guy that just happens to have purchased one......does he "Deserve to Die" because he did not inspect that????? I know it is an extreme example but valid none the less.


BTW I never questioned that it is a pilot's responsibility to preflight his airplane.

What happened to CAI?
 

To GlennisAircraft. You stated 2280 "pounds of torque". Pounds are units of force, not moment. Did you mean in-lbs or ft-lbs? If this figure came directly from the CAI web site, then I guess its a mystery. I sure hope they were not claiming ft-lbs.

David R.
 

David,
Maybe I am sounding harsh with my coments, but the point of my concerns are founded on saftey and that of blaming a model for an engineering failiure? with out there being substantial evidence to support inuendo.
Maybe the builder is at fault as well hear?, maybe its the designer? who here honestly knows? and what is gained by second guessing?

As jet modelers we must all be attentive to the increased risks associated with this newer aspects of our hobby. The CAI issue is not the only point of my concerns...

As a rep for any product it is important to be supportive of all products you represent, but to spred unfounded rumors about your competitors to get ahead is low, real low...
and I will always support fellow modelers / manufactures having a go, and giving us all a chance to make up our own unbiased choices...

Sorry if I offended, this is not my intention... Lively positive discussion, is valuable and of much assistance to new comers and people looking for accurate information about R/C consumer products...

In closing the focus of my concerns has been rumor mongers, its up to
me, you, us...to not let these things get out of hand, and destroy our friends attempts to introduce new technologies to our great hobby.
My so called 'Arrogance' only extends to these rumor issues. This is my personal opinion only, and is what these forums are all about, if you disagree
thats fine...
As a rep for a new product I understand how critical honesty is...
some do not, is my point.


Cheers - Marty

pilot error or manufacturer error
 

I am not sure it is relevant to this thread anymore, but the information I received about the Panther crash at Top Gun points conclusively to significant error on the part of the person who built and assembled the airplane. (I don't mean to give Jess a hard time by the way. We all make mistakes.)

My point is that the Panther is a well designed airplane and far from the Junk that CAI bashers would have us believe. Lewis Patton discussed the Top Gun incident with me. He was not damning anyone. He's much too much of a gentleman for that. He was just narrating to me what appeared to have happened. According to Lewis the cam lock system in that plane was not servo operated but manual. It was held shut by a bolt through the cam that butted against the bracket behind the cam. Lewis said that it appeared that the bolt came loose and allowed the cam to swing open. I just called Lewis to confirm this description of events. I forgot to ask him whether or not the bracket was drilled to receive the bolt, but I think he told me last time that it was not. So you see the mechanism didn't fail, and the "wussy little pins" were not the issue since the cam came open when it's retaining device loosened.

Unfortunately I don't know if the Panther manual describes how you handle a manual cam lock set-up, so I can't comment on whether or not the method used was per manufacturer's instructions.

So there you have it. The question thus becomes how much does the manufacturer have to engineer a solution to make it "fool proof"? What is fool proof anyway. Are we talking an average fool or an average RC jet fool? That my friends brings us to the realm of product liability and tort law where the word "reasonable" starts to take on a whole new light. In my opinion it would be common sense that you do something to secure the locking bolt to keep it from coming loose. Heck if this were Rich Fong's airplane those bolts would have been safety clipped in some way regardless of what the manufacturer's instructions called for.

Those of you who dislike Scotty will no doubt find fault in this setup regardless so I am not sure why I am wasting my breath. I just hate to see unsubstantiated reports perpetuated.

This discussion of the Panther wing just goes to demonstrate that those who don't care for Scotty will see things the way the want to see them.

So is this thread dead yet?

Antony

What happened to CAI?
 

>So is this thread dead yet?

No not yet.

>This discussion of the Panther wing just goes to demonstrate >that those who don't care for Scotty will see things the way the >want to see them.

This has nothing to do with weather or not we like Scotty.
My discussion is about the locking system that
I never liked in the first place. My opinion is
meaningless as I have nothing to do with that airplane
and because of that I keep my mouth shut. Now
that the plane is no long for sale, it won't harm
anyone to say what I think.

>My point is that the Panther is a well designed airplane and far >from the Junk that CAI bashers would have us believe.

Your right, its not Junk. Its a new plane that needed some
small changes. Thats all. The main problem is CAI would
not admint that there well designed airplanes needed any changes.

There are 1000 things to design in a new plane. NO one
can do them all right the first time. BVM makes changes
to production planes all the time.

How about some one put some pics of the locking
system on the internet. I will bet 50 guys will find
a way to make it better.

>The CAI claim was that each hinge would stand
>1140 pounds torgue.

Torque..? what is it going to twist the wing off because torque
is in the twist direction only.

I will bet anyone a Rum and coke, I can break that
wing with my hands alone... no problem
1140 pounds.. where do they come up with this stuff..?

Eddie Weeks

What happened to CAI?
 

It is really a shame to see the amount of human callous insensibility that some of you are exhibiting with regards to CAI demise.

Scotty explained some of the hard time he went through re his wife's medicinal condition. It is a shame that instead of wishing him good luck, some of you resorted in adding more insult to his injury.

Please note that "what goes around comes around". Today it is Scotty's demise, tomorrow it might be yours.

Let's us let the sleeping dog lie.

BTW, my advice to GlennisAircraft , "he who lives in a class house should not throw stones".

As my father use to say, "the downfall of a man is not the end of his life" and so let it be with Scotty/CAI


I wish him and his family the best of luck.


:mad:

What happened to CAI?
 

Eddie,
By that I think you mean turbines. Scotty is actually an accomplished RC pilot whose time in modeling dates back to the 60's and 70's here in Maine when my Dad and Leon Auger taught him to fly...... I don't know if Scotty got into DF's while he was still in Maine but watching Leon fold the stabs on his early Byron F-16s is enough to scare ANYONE avay from jets for a while.
I've known Scotty since then and would have to fully agree with your last statment however.
Jets aren't on my R/C scope but I consider Scotty an old friend and wish he and his family the best.

hurrah!
 

Well said Ben. I vote with you. Scotty has had a rough year on all fronts. I feel for him and wish him the best.

Thanks also Nick for clarifying the point about Scotty's RC experience. In fact he's not just a good fixed wing pilot, he also flies a mean helicopter. I watched Scotty fly Ray's helicopter two summers ago at the Skystreakers field and he did a damn good job -- particularly considering he hadn't flown one in many years. It was also fun to watch since the chopper was pretty tricked out with expensive parts, so Ray was a tad nervous watching Scotty horse it around. Heh, heh -- sorry Ray -- just had to add that part.

Antony

CAI Panther
 

Let's talk about the Kitty. I built several of these, all of which by God's grace are still flying with a little built of user awareness. The Panther is a well designed jet with many innovative ideas. Dennis Crooks, and Nick Ziroli are only a couple of guys with the hoorahs big enough to fold a wing on an aircraft.(sorry if I forgot someone) Scotty's design was good, but you needed to think about the set up a bit when constructing the jet. The kit was offered 2 ways. The deluxe came with the wing fold cylinders, the other did not. The wing hinging was not an option as it was preinstalled at the factory. If you chose the deluxe, you added about 2 lbs+ to the finished weight. This feature had 2 air cylinders(one per side), and 4 servos that locked the cam mechanisms(2 per side) When this set-up was used, it was still advised(if your gut feeling hadn't kicked in already) to only use the wing fold after a flight for the finale. In the preflight, when assembling the jet, the lower inspection panels(access to aileron, flap servos, and air cylinders) were removed to visually inspect the proper latching of the cams. This was manditory on a jet not equipped with the deluxe option. Both cams had to be locked down completely over the roll pins, an a 4-40 jam bolt tightened down against the mechanism itself. Now, in a perfect world, those bolts should stay tight...turbines have nill in the way of vibration. I always added a little blue loctite to the threads. If you have a Panther, you may do this, or add a jam nut. Another safety was to drill thru the threaded holes (carefully)causing a dimple or recess for the bolt to bottom out in. This is just food for thought, and may perhaps help a Kitty driver out there to enjoy his jet for many years to come. I have flown the Panther, it is one of the EASIEST jets to takeoff and land....an ohh :D those folding wings...on the ground..after the flight.

CAI Kits
 

I have a Razor that I bought last fall.......I like it and there is nothing wrong with it or the design. I hated to see CAI Fold and I wish Scotty and Lauren all of the best. I was actually saving up for a Predator this summer. Hopefully someone will pick up the gaunlet and drive on. BTW I also have a BVM Bandit and I am on my 3rd Maverick. I have no preference for the "Cola wars", I spend my hard earned dollars on what I like and forget the politics.

What happened to CAI?
 

The ability to go and really have fun flying my TG F15 comes from keeping perspective on why I'm in this hobby.
If it ain't fun....why bother.?

What happened to CAI?
 

I can't get a hit on Glennis webpage.....anyone know how to get a hold of Glennis? I need some wheels bad.

What happened to CAI?
 

Glennis doesn't come up here either, what size do you need?
Try Trim Wheels at: http://www.greatnorthernmodels.com/ Look under accessories, select what you need up to 3.5"

Probably less expensive than Glennis too! :D

What happened to CAI?
 

Thx...I actually need some 6.5 inch FW190 wheels. Been trying to hunt down Glennis. Thx anyway

What happened to CAI?
 

Robart has their new Tuff treads available in that size, very nice, aluminum wheels and SOLID rubber tires

Glennis site is up
 

Try this link for Glennis: http://glennis.com/index.htm. It came up fine a few minutes ago...

RE: What happened to CAI?
 

I still have mine,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, I found this post when all the old guy's you to be on here

RE: What happened to CAI?
 

Still have your what? :P 8 year old thread haha, which model do you still have?

RE: DAVID R.
 

.

RE: What happened to CAI?
 

J:
The only reason I brought this up is to draw out all the old guy's that never get on here any more,,,,,,,,, my panther

RE: What happened to CAI?
 

I have a Razor that is currently getting a much needed overhaul after some serious abuse and shoddy repairs / sloppy work over the years. I really love the design and it is pretty my favorite looking sport jet of all time followed closely by the bandit. Quality seems to be nice and has withstood many years of time and abuse which I think is a testament to the build quality. I plan on painting it jet black with yellow accents for visuals while flying, as my wife suggested it would look "sick" (her words, lol)<input type="hidden" id="gwProxy"><!Session data></input><input type="hidden" id="jsProxy" onclick="jsCall();" /><div id="refHTML"></div>

RE: What happened to CAI?
 

Rap that would looks sweet do some picks

I hope you have good eyes:D

RE: What happened to CAI?
 

Luckily I do :D Flying helis for so long has certainly has advanced my orientations and awareness.<input type="hidden" id="gwProxy"><!Session data></input><input type="hidden" id="jsProxy" onclick="jsCall();" /><div id="refHTML"></div>