Districy V and Jim McNasty
 

People, I am ashamed to admit this, but I did not vote for Tony Stillman in the last election. I know Tony, he is a good man, and we are members of the same club. Our current DVP who was re-elected has long been known in this area as an unresponsive representative. The shame is not that I voted for McNasty instead of Tony, but that I did not vote at all. It will not happen again.

Twinners are Winners!

WLR

Support for the proposal to the AMA
 

Jon and other members of the Jet Community

I’m glad that you find Dave Mathewson supportive and open to your conversations, I also agree with this assessment. Dave serves as JPO’s Liaison to the AMA as well as his duties as Dist. II VP. I would like to clear up some details for you though. The process that JPO goes through to submit an idea to the AMA is as follows. JPO gives it’s ideas/proposals to Dave (JPO Liaison to the AMA), he then passes it to the AMA’s Liaison for submittal to the proper committee or authority. The JPO proposal never made it to the EC because it is hung in a committee within the AMA. As for the quote-COMBINED proposal that came to life within the AMA it’s self. There are on going conversations between JPO and the AMA to determine why this was done. But more importantly to repair the safety issues that the new combined proposal creates. JPO is also trying to get our original proposal out of committee and presented to the EC for its consideration. It is important that the Jet community understand that what was voted on by the EC 2 weeks ago is not what JPO was trying to achieve. But since it was voted into being JPO will continue to act on the Jet Communities behalf to resolve the issues it created.

Dawn Ellzey
JPO Dist. VIII

Support for the proposal to the AMA
 

And yes, McNeil did get a buddy to run and split the vote, just like "Ol' Big-Ears" split the national vote and screwed us into the Clinton years. I was going to put some more opinions here, but the thought of possible liabilities ensuing from the exersize of my free speech rights stopped me. As for example, just after Slick Willie was elected a person was heard to say "Where is Lee Harvey Oswald when we need him?" That man was arrested. Free speech?

Fly with a pair, you deserve free air!

WLR

Support for the proposal to the AMA
 

Hi Dawn,
Thanks for the clarification, I knew there had to be more to it, but like I said, I was at work and we had an emergency when I was talking to Dave and didn't have a chance to continue our conversation.
Regards,
Jon

Support for the proposal to the AMA
 

David

Hmmmmmmm. Here goes your turbine waiver.

Support for the proposal to the AMA
 

:eek: :eek:

Scary part is.....It would not surprise me! :(

After some conversations with McNeil about Deland Taliban I am convinced he is of the same breed. He is certainly not helping our district!

Support for the proposal to the AMA
 

You think so???? What grounds they would have for revoking it? I am not the only one that has ever made these kind of accusations about McNeil. He has not been an active modeler for years. How can he truly represent modellers if he is not one??? I guess what you are saying is that I should not speak out against my ineffective District Rep for fear that I might lose my waiver.....what a joke!

David Reid

BTW Todd.....there goes your's too!

Support for the proposal to the AMA
 

I've never checked into it, do we (AMA) have provision for a recall? If yes, let's get it going in district V. How say ye?

A fan on each side, that's a very good ride!

WLR

Support for the proposal to the AMA
 

What would it take to kick McNeil' s arse to the side and get a new VP whom is an active modeler and willing to work with members? Are we stuck waiting for next election or ???

Support for the proposal to the AMA
 

Todd,

We are stuck with him until the next election. The last election we had Tony Stilman, an active modeller and he gave it a good run but there are still some pockets of McNeil loyalism.....read that the old farts club that does not fly RC. The worst part of the election deal was that the spoiler that "tried" to enter the race is someone from Tony's home club that's pretty dirty....but I guess that's politics.

Support for the proposal to the AMA
 

A little up-date. The "Spoiler" has since been ejected from Northwest Florida Modelers Inc. He has attempted to start another local club, I think it is currently falling on its face. The election bit was not the reason for his being an ex-member, we wont go into that. Suffice it to say he has been a local thorn for a while, and now he has become a district V thorn.

Don't fly with two? You never flew!

WLR

Support for the proposal to the AMA
 

David

Yes, I think so and if you need more details, you know how to reach me.

Later

Reply to Dawn Elzey
 

Hi Dawn et al.,

I normally try to refrain from commenting in these forums, but this time I need to as I have some questions about Dawn's previous post.

First, it is stated that Dave is the JPO's liaison to AMA. When I was removed from that position Art Arro was installed as liaison. When did Art step down and Dave take over? No one at AMA has a clue on this. I say this because, after being removed as JPO's liaison, Carl Maroney appointed me as AMA's direct liaison to JPO, and all interface from JPO to AMA was to go through me. I haven't received any communications at all from anyone on JPO for the better part of a year now. Maybe this is why the proposal never made it anywhere? Can't answer this one. I know of no committee anything is hung up in! Maybe someone can clarify this for me.

As far as the new proposal voted in last EC meeting, I see it as a very good thing. It DOES NOT REPLACE ANYTHING ALREADY IN THE WAIVER PROCESS, but adds an additional means for someone to show their flight proficiency. What if someone flies way out in East Jesus and there is no Approved Turbine CD anywhere around to sign his form for his waiver? This way the applicant can make his way to a meet in the general vicinity and perform his demo flight in front of a qualified CD. This in no way is the only thing the applicant must do to get his waiver. All other avenues must be followed (ie., ground schooling, questionnaire).
Also, this keeps the potential turbine pilot from spending the necessary $$$ and time to get a ducted fan in the air, if only for a few flights to get his waiver, and then dump it for his turbine!! If his skills are "up to snuff", this part of his waiver process is complete. if the CD does not feel the pilot is ready for a turbine the CD will not approve the demo flight. I personnaly think this is a much safer avenue as the pilot is demonstrating his skills first hand (on a buddy box), and not just getting someone/anyone to sign off for a waiver.

Again, I hope I clarified some issues for some of you, and at the same time hope someone clears things up for me as well.

Joe Amato
AMA Tubine Advisory Committee

Re: Reply to Dawn Elzey
 

Sounds like you guys need to get this straightened out! Then maybe we might get somewhere...........

Support for the proposal to the AMA
 

Joe,

Ok I'll bite and kick the proverbial hornets nest......But...since you brought it up!!!!!!!


You had asked to "retire" as JPO District Rep but still wanted to stay on as JPO Liason to the AMA. The JPO officers discussed, deliberated and voted on what was the best representation that the JPO had to the AMA. Some felt that you had not been doing your job in the previous years, and even felt that you had used your position as the JPO liason to carry proposals to the AMA that did not originate through the JPO. (Homebuilt Turbine proposal to name one) Maybe that particular proposal was a good thing, I don't know, being that at most there are only a very small handfull of Homebuilt waivers (I think it was ONE guy the last time I heard) it was not probably the most pressing proposal to carry to the AMA. However you did not even make the JPO officers aware that it was being presented to the AMA.

That was the first directive that came to JPO from the AMA and this was about the time that you publicly declared in this forum that you were EX-JPO. See your comments in the following thread.

http://www.rcuniverse.com/showthread...hreadid=123264


How were the JPO officers supposed to interpret those comments???? Did that give everyone the warm fuzzy feelings about your representation and effective communication between JPO and the AMA???


I have nothing against you, I do wonder why you became so bitter towards the JPO.


And he can do the same thing now! If the guy can drive to an event and have any CD and two waiver holders sign his ticket does this not open up a whole new liability to the AMA and the rest of us a modellers that attend these events. How do the two waiver holders, and the CD know that he has done the ground schooling and passed the questionaire? If he has done the ground schooling where did he have to go to do that? Why could he have not met with a Turbine CD at that time as well? What is the purpose of Turbine CD's if they are not even being incorporated into this new temporary waiver proposal? I could go on for hours listing holes in this proposal. Maybe it would be better to just do away with the whole waiver issue and be done with it. Let anyone that can afford to buy an airplane and stuff a turbine into it fly their model..... is that NOT where all this is headed ?

BTW Art is still the JPO liason to the AMA, Dave Mathewson was appointed by Dave Brown as AMA's liason to the JPO. Maybe you should investigate this a little further.


David Reidd

reply
 

David-
My post was absolutely not meant to be bitter in any way. I'm sorry if it came off that way to you. I was merely posing questions that I did not know the answer to. I guess only a chosen few can participate without getting blasted all the time?

Joe

Support for the proposal to the AMA
 

Hi,
I'm confused! The way I interpret all of this is we have TWO liaison's: Joe for communications from the JPO to the AMA, then Dave for communications from AMA to the JPO. If this is correct then it's a wonder anything is getting done. If true the JPO needs to get with the AMA and decide who the AMA liaison's is for the JPO.
Jon

Support for the proposal to the AMA
 

Joe,


My post was not meant as a slam on you just stating some facts here. You gave a very distinct message by signing your post in the previous thread the way you did. JPO also got chastised for my posts and my signing them with the JPO sig that I used. Specifically a phone call that came to Steven at that time naming me as being antagonistic towards the AMA. Regardless..... Jim McNeil is a lousy District VP for our district. And There seems to be a communications problem between the JPO and the AMA and if you are indeed the liason, how come nothing is passing through you in either direction????? There's more to this than just meets the eye I am sure and whatever it is should really be rectified so that JPO can be effective in representing the Jet Community. Petty power struggles don't advance communications between the JPO and the AMA.

David Reid

Support for the proposal to the AMA
 

AMEN, Brother!!!! :D :rolleyes:

Support for the proposal to the AMA
 

Hi David-

Isn't it funny that everyone asks for input from someone at AMA, but when I try to post something as a member of the TAC, I have some devious reason for doing so? I don't uinderstand. I guess I am a little slow. People don't really want answers here - they just want an arguement! Sorry- I am not getting in one with you. I guess it is best that I do not respond to anything in this forum any more.

To F-106 - yes, it is confusing to me as well. That is why I posed the questions in my original post. The left hand doesn't seem to know what the right hand is doing in this instance. I agree with you completely.

I sincerely hope the situation gets resolved. Terry is right - the bickering will not solve anything.

Plain Old Joe Amato

Support for the proposal to the AMA
 

Guys

Take a look at http://modelaircraft.org/templates/a...cminutes.asp#V minute V.

I'm livid that AMA did not take JPO's proposal but rather accepted a proposal from an individual that decided to bypass JPO.

What will be next?. I guess some people are above going through the proper channels (JPO) to submit recommendations to AMA that would effect present and future turbine waiver holders.


.....ghost_rider......out..... (waiting for incomming SCUDS )

Support for the proposal to the AMA
 

Ditto!
Apparently the AMA felt it was not even necessary to bring the JPO proposal to the table! It was never discussed at the EC meeting to be voted on??? What was passed is complete GARBAGE! Useless to say the least and vague and confusing at best.
I thoroughly read the JPO proposal multiple times to fully comprehend it. This proposal was well though out, covered every base with complete safety in mind. What is AMA thinking.....??? :confused:
I finally, after sending multiple! emails to my district VP voicing my concerns about the latest set of rules to be implemented, received a phone call from Jim McNeil to discuss the situation. His response, send me an email voicing all the flaws in the new rules and I will bring them to the next EC meeting.
I also received this email just after our conversation
"Todd,
when you send me the information for me to present to the next Council meeting (Feb 8,9) take your time and outline the flaws you alluded to in our telephone conversation. I am on the alert now to learn about the subject from A to Z. Since you are acting in good faith, I will work with you to implement a better system for flying jets, etc.
Jim McNeill
Jim even had the gall to ask if my concerns were genuine or had someone coerced me into sending my emails?????
Yep...that's our AMA.... :rolleyes:

Support for the proposal to the AMA
 

Well,

Just sat down with documents 567-570 again to try and comprehend just what the AMA is trying to accomplish here.
Lets start with Doc 568, the Release Agreement???
What is this??? Is it supposed to release the instructors/turbine waiver holders from any liability?? :rolleyes: Please excuse my ignorace here but ask any lawyer whether this can release anyone of liability from "bodily injury, personal injuries known or unknown, death or property damage" (as a result) from this participation?? I think they would have a good laugh! It also appears they are attempting to release the AMA from any liability should something happen?? Hmm...Dont think so!! And what if it does, how IS the applicant covered from liability????

Ok, 567 then....
"Prior to any operation, the aircraft will have to
undergo a routine safety inspection by the two turbine waiver holders and the Contest
Director. Once the aircraft has been inspected one of the two qualified turbine waiver
holders will perform a ground run-up prior to flight. The applicant will then operate the
turbine-powered aircraft on the buddy box, to demonstrate their flight proficiency to the
turbine waiver holders and the Contest Director. Flight proficiency is established if the
applicant is able to safely demonstrate the required patterns and maneuvers, as listed
under Required Turbine Flight Performance Demonstration (website document 569). If
the applicant has displayed satisfactory proficiency the Contest Director can then
authorize a “Flight Demonstration Turbine Waiver”, to be signed by all three witnesses."
Ok, first part makes sense check the plane out, no problem there! Applicant will then operate the aircraft on BB??? So HE does the test flight??? :rolleyes: No indication as to flight speeds there so I guess he can perform all the maneuvers at 75mph? We sign him off and he is ok to fly DURING the event at 150 to 200 mph with 7 other aircraft in the air??? :eek: .....I would continue but it is my opinion, a waste of time! It is unfortunately obvious that the AMA has there head in the sand and no one has a clue... Is there anyone out the that actually finds this new program and/or the documents that support it clear and concise and most importantly...SAFE???

Todd

Flight proficiency
 

Gentlemen;

I will start by stating that I do not hold an AMA turbine certification. What AMA is giving is a certification, it isn't really a waiver, except insofar as it allows the use of a power plant other than piston or electric.

The AMA's rationale is speed. This is nonsense.

Where is the certification for the unlimited pylon racing planes? The turbines have an AMA imposed speed limit of 200 mph, the unlimited pylon planes will exceed 225-230 mph.

The 200 mph impact of a 40 lb airlane will do significant damage regardless of its motive power source, and I submit the gasoline fuel of the unlimited makes its crash potentially much more dangerous than the kerosine fuel of the turbine.

It is therefore proposed that all "Turbine Waivers" be eliminated.

Replacing the previous "Turbine Waiver" AMA will issue instead a "High Speed and High Performance" certification.

This "HS/HP" certification will be required for operation of ANY model aircraft of more than 25 pounds dry weight, or capable of more than 150 mph sustained air speed in level flight.

All holders of the eliminated "Turbine Waiver" will automatically be issued this certification.

All other AMA members will be issued this certification on their written affidavit of ability to fly this type aircraft safely, such affidavit being countersigned by an AMA leader member, contest director, or a current holder of the certification.

The AMA membership card/license will have the member's certification level indicated on the face, added in the area under the member's name.

Biennial flight review (a la FAA) could be added to the requirement for continuing certification, I am open on that. But as shown, the current condition is neither reasonable nor is the turbine waiver available to the many who would like to get into this branch and can afford the airplanes but either have time restrictions or other reasons why the current qualification process keeps them out.

Comments, please.

WLR

The AMA
 

Let me start by saying that I for one am grateful that the AMA allows us to operate turbines, let me say that again

I want to personally thank Joe Amato, Carl Mulroney, Terry Nitsche, Jim Hiller and all of the others at the AMA and JPO that work to establish policies that get us the coverage that we need to enjoy this hobby.

Having said that, it would seem to me there was a bit of a breakdown as to just how the JPO (as the recognized SIG) is to liaise with the AMA. I think we should resolve that first, and then get the proper, JPO sanctioned proposal in front of the EC, with the proper liaison and champion within the EC.

So the question is...who is the JPO Liaison to the AMA, and who is the AMA liason to the JPO?

After we get that answered, we can then get these two to agree on a time to get the JPO proposal in front of the EC. We will know ahead of time and have an opportunity to contact our individual district VPs to lobby as we see fit (either pro or con) and then the EC can act.

I am sure that if they are shown that the current proposal is flawed or a better option can be implemented, the EC will do it. They have always shown willingness in the past to change the rules (starting procedures, thrust to weight, speed limiting, twin operation, etc).

I think we should all take a moment to realize how fortunate we really are and keep that in mind as we have these public discussions. I hope that the stridency of some of these discussions does not turn off the AMA. I hope that with improved JPO/AMA communications we can find a way to go forward from here.