RE: Royalties for models
 

I'm Sorry Bob, but you are WAY off on just about everything you mention. I can't tell if your having difficulty grasping the concepts or if your just lashing out. It's obvious to don't care or want to know what the reality it.
You seem like one of those people who just needs to point fingers and blame the world for keeping you down.
Nothing you've said is true or even close to the truth.
STL Pilot has been 99% correct on everything he's tried to share and I'm sure he's a lot more educated about this industry.

It's obvious that things are changing in your idustry just like they changed in the automobile industry years ago. You don't have to like it but your not going to be able to stop it. And if done correctly it is better for the industry...but I'm biase.

Nate

RE: Royalties for models
 

I think guys like Bob Khlenke are justifiably frustrated. They don't feel the situation is just, and the emotion is genuine.
Problem is, the situation is what it is, and there is much more at stake than just some royalties over model airplanes. At the very heart of it is the whole concept of intellectual property, and when we start taking away those rights for emotional reasons, because we feel someone is being "greedy", we kick the stilts out from under the entire system.

In the same way that freedom of speech means allowing vile neo-nazis to have their say, you can say LM is just being greedy, but it's something we just have to live with. Personally, I don't beleive it's just pure greed, but others are welcome to feel otherwise. Only the board of LM can really say. But if you start saying they don't deserve the same rights as everybody else, just because they are wealthy, well, that's a real problem. And only when they take away YOUR rights will it really hit home at what was lost.

If you really feel the P-38 belongs in the public domain, then you need to find a way to get Lockeed-Martin to transfer those rights to the USG, and you need to talk to the USG and make sure that any future rights to new aircraft are retained by the USG. Somehow, I doubt the UGS WANTS the rights, or that LM wants to give them away.

RE: Royalties for models
 

Thank NGallow for the ego boost, today first I'm nominated for AMA Exec director and now I'm actually 99% right about something. What a day! I do have plenty of practical experience in this industry and others, but most of this information I've posted is common knowledge, not common guessing. It's kind of funny to watch these threads, I get equally frustrated when I watch The Apprentice, to the point I can't even watch it anymore. You just want to sometimes rip those college kids out of the TV and shake them and say, why the heck are you doing it this way, friggn morons. Prolly the same way that EASYTIGER thinks about guys who put together Springtime for Hitler. (inside joke)

YES! The most obviously correct point of them all. Times are not only changing, they are good, real good. Maybe not in Iraq and the Middle East, but most everywhere else. Companies and factories are pumping out more product then ever. What used to be deserted shipping lanes are now major highways on the water.

The reason that these companies are now enforcing their trademarks more then ever is because production is WAAAAYY up then in previous years. When production goes up, abuse goes up (copyright/trademark violation). When abuse goes up restriction goes up. Then when it comes down the the poor little ol' consumer, they think they are the ones stuck with the bill. EVEN THO consumer prices for models are relatively very cheap, thanks to competition and all this production.

Just kind of sick and tired of seeing our proud and fellow AMERICAN CORPORATIONS being labeled greedy when they are only protecting what belongs to them. If you are going to blame anyone, blame the consumers for creating the demand.

RE: Royalties for models
 

A hat? I didn't get a hat. I think the P&W emblem on the side of my turbine would look cool!

Gary

RE: Royalties for models
 

Ahh, never mind :D

Change the law, it's a fair trade - several trillion dollars in taxpayer bucks in exchange for little kids and big kids being able to build a toy that looks like the $100 million dollar fighter aircraft. Last time I checked LM did not tell the USG what to call their products. The designation is a government decision and should remain government property. The whole damn industry is a government corporation disguised as free enterprise, 15 years of monopoly consolidation was all done with the wink wink agreement of the government to preserve "capacity" at the expense of higher prices to us.

You know - Bandaid (TM) brand adhesive strips = Lockheed Martin (TM) brand F-35


All the rest of us who DON'T CARE about the LM part will just call em F-35's.

RE: Royalties for models
 

I say we sign our homes over the to the government too!

-------

Dear Madame Congreslady,

DOWN WITH CAPITALISM, MORE GOVERNMENT CONTROL!!!!

P.S. Just try not to take any money from us for this government control thingy, we like to keep it in our piggy banks. Oh and by the way let us use your trademarked items whenever we need to make money to fill our piggy banks back up. This way I don't have to work as hard to make a buck in life. I'm sure you understand.

Singed,
Wishful Thinking

RE: Royalties for models
 

Please point me to an infringing F-15, F-35, P-51 or any other defense industry product that has been copied?

Bout the closest I can think of would be the Russians "Concordsky" and the Buran, any licensing fees collected for those?

I know, it is tuff when a large segment of the public thinks what you are engaged in is extortion. Be careful what you wish for because your line of business can be legislated out of existance. Call me lenin if you like, I'm actually highly pro-capitalist in almost everything. You are treading on thin ice in this area.

RE: Royalties for models
 

As far as the support that the Licensor provides the Licensee, it is true that it is difficult to spend more money supporting a licensee than what the licensee is bringing in in royalties. But a license should be a longterm relationship, the last thing a licensor wants is for a successful licensee to fail. Therefore, all of the Licensors that I have worked for are more than happy to provide any materials that would help a licensee become more successful.


Nate
[/quote]




I sick of you coming on this thread and telling us to bend over and how great it's going to feel when your done.
Quailty control.......give me a break, apples and oranges compaired to full scale. Modeling for has been doing very well for many
years now without you boys sorry *****e$. Now you want to control the modeling world and tell us how wonderful it will be.
My freaking 2 cents. [:@]


David Hudson

RE: Royalties for models
 

I sick of you coming on this thread and telling us to bend over and how great it's going to feel when your done.
Quailty control.......give me a break, apples and oranges compaired to full scale. Modeling for has been doing very well for many
years now without you boys sorry *****e$. Now you want to control the modeling world and tell us how wonderful it will be.
My freaking 2 cents. [:@]


David Hudson

[/quote]



Well said. I don't see how they can honestly say it will be a good thing for the hobby. Senario: I decide to kit and sell an F-16 then I'll have to pay royalties. General Dynamics released the loft lines for the F-16 many years ago for the avid modeler. Don't tell me that because someone decided to use these to produce a kit and sell it, Lockheed should have their pockets filled from it. They already get paid by the government who gets paid by us the taxpayer. Give me a break. However, I feel I must stay out of this one because I think someone will slap a civil lawsuit against me for speaking out. By the way, I'm not asking any questions here so I don't need anyone to answer anything...

RE: Royalties for models
 

I'm doing very well, thank you very much and I've developed some IP, both independently and under Government grants, so I understand the issues with licensing as well. And despite what you think, I'm not WAY off on anything - I just see it from a different angle.

The problem I have is that while we're running around fending off each other's (useless IMHO) lawyers and "licensing" companies, the rest of the world is eating us for lunch. If we had more people worrying about how we can educate people who are capable of actually inventing something that was worth licensing than worrying about how to make a fast buck after finishing business or law school, we might actually be able to stay at the top of the heap where we were 10 or 15 years ago...

And I don't buy this "all IP is the same so we better protect it all" argument. The world is not black and white, its gray. LM and other companies didn't go out there and start charging licensing fees for models to help Universal Pictures help fend off counterfeit movies from China. They did it to make money - for somebody at least. Perhaps if you admitted that and actually had a real story to tell about what value you can truely add to the process instead of coming up with BS arguments about "quality," "risk," etc. you'd get some traction on the issue...

Bob

RE: Royalties for models
 

You guys keep making it sound like all these greedy money grubbing companies are owned by a single person. Lockheed is not a person, Lockheed is a publically owned and traded corporation. Lockheed does not fill the pockets of itself but to 10's of thousands of stockholder/owners including YOU whom are reading this thread. Do you have any mutual funds, IRA's, 401k's or any other kinds of invesments that get their interest bearing fuel from ownership in these stocks? How do you think you make money off your investments?

Keep sticking it to these corporations, it only makes you look like you have NO IDEA what the heck your talking about.

RE: Royalties for models
 

Really??? Who is eating us for lunch??? China??? Japan??? Tell me ... where did you come up with this evaluation?

You know what, maybe they did and maybe they didn't. Are you a stockholder in their corporation? Do you own any stocks at all? Don't you like when you invest money in something and it turns into more money because you risked in that investment? You don't think the stockholders of LM don't think the same thing. I don't hold hard stocks in LM, I may in other invesments, but I'll be dammed if I owned stock in a company and that company allowed other companies to use their IP that I wouldn't be throwing a hissy fit and so would other stockholders. Plus the fact that the stock value would go down if that were the case.

Well they could just say, none of your business if they wanted too. But then again I would take their word over their "BS" story over your "BS" seeing that they are a very old company with 10's of thousands of workers and get big contracts from the gov't, mostly due to the integrity that they provide as well as their products.

The big question is, how does it effect you???? You're not going to pay the royalty in the end anyway.

RE: Royalties for models
 

Well I think WE are all greedy and lazy to some extent. Bottom line is a business is developed to make a profit and as much as possible for as long as possible. If you are going to use my name and or logo than I want sometime in return. I do not want the cost of my model to go up at all though. Seems to me there is quite a mix of different things going on here. Ideas, quaility control and marketing. I get paid for doing my work. My work belongs to the company I work for. I have no rights to it even though I made it, my compensation is my pay. If I don't like it I find a new job.

At least I know I don't have to write my Congressperson.

At least there are some clear heads here, like it or not. What a thread!

RE: Royalties for models
 

I agree 100%.

I posted extensively in the other thread, so I will refrain from that here. I did want to mention though that when you look at the total cost involved, it does seem to be a minimal amount, in terms of the fee required.
To take the Chicken Little stance is simply not the route to take. 6% of net frankly is nothing. If TF refused to pay an amount like that simply becasue they didn't feel like it, please read (not much demand for the model) that would be kinda silly.

The reality is that a common ARF price is probably around $25.00 (produced in Malaisa, Kuala lumpur to be more precise) So at a whopping 6% that comes in and a screaming $1.50.

It would be interesting to know if TF passed up the deal becasue of that cost.

RE: Royalties for models
 

AMA Exec director hum? You'll probably fit in very well there - unfortunately...

D^&% probably shouldn't have said that - sorry...

Maybe I should go back and see if anyone wants to talk about something fun like turbine jets. Unfortunately it seems that in the future, they won't be scale. I guess then it won't matter WHERE the JWM is or how the team is selected. BMV will probably be gone too so that nasty C-ARF guy - whatever his company's name is, won't have anybody to screw over. Wow, add in quality, risk reduction, etc. and licensing fees just SAVED THE WORLD!

Now where are those tapes on speaking Chineese?

Bob

RE: Royalties for models
 

No way! It's bad business. All they did is open the doors to make the money instead. Like you said labor costs and materials is CHEAP overseas.

If this is the case with TF, they made it personal, not business. But maybe they just believe in the cause to create a stir so they will make even more money if/when the bill does pass. Or it could just be a PR stunt. Wouldn't be the first time someone has done something like this.

Who said that this is really true with TF anyway? This could be just some rumor.

RE: Royalties for models
 

"How do you think you make money off your investments?"

Easy, The money you/we put into them is turned around and re-invested in other stocks. Do you really think that the miniscule amount it receives from licensing fees is so much more important to these stocks and investments than the money that their employees contribute? Sorry, I don't but I could be wrong. Hell, I just work there.:D

I do have SOME idea, just not yours.:)

RE: Royalties for models
 

Ha! Sorry for the rant then, didn't know you worked for LM. You guys have some rockin planes! Keep em coming. BTW can I come over and borrow one of my planes for a few hours? Do you know where they keep my keys to my planes? :D:D

Oh god give me a break, talk about your drama. What do you mean won't be scale? You make it sound like they are trying to close down companies.

Don't worry, if all other companies drop out of the game I'll personally be more then happy to invest in the 6% royalty and pump out composite planes without competition, so do you worry yourself too much about it, they will still be there.

RE: Royalties for models
 

LOL...Man you guys love modeling!
I'm sorry if I've offended anyone, it's not my intention. (OK maybe Bob a little) Sorry!

Everything I've said and posted about licensing is true and sincere, from my work as a licensing agent. Although, I shouldn't try and paint a rosey picture for all licensing, it is true different licensing firms have different strategies for securing licensees. Those strategies also can differ when going after infringers. I don't like the way some licensing firms leverage their marks and force the hand of manufacturers. Sometimes charging Minimums and Advance so high that it would be impossible for the company to market the product successfully, but in every case the manufacturer could of decided not to make the product. That being said, I can guarntee you this is not the case with P&W.

These large firms are not going to go away because the manufacturers are angry. It is true that they would rather have nobody make product vs. letting people use their marks illegally. I'm sorry that many don't believe that the goal is a win-win for all the parties involved, but it is the truth. It is the only reason I've spent the time to read the posts and have attempted participate. (Not sure if it was a good idea or not) I represent multiple clients for multiple industries and I don't give most this much time up front. But I do remember how angry many people were when LM started to require licenses and I expected the same for P&W so I thought maybe there was a better way.

The law is on the side of the Licensor....P&W could wipe the market clean of infringing products fairly easily. Then start from scratch. Many small companies could easily be put out of business just by defending themselves in court or having to pay back royalties...or both. Even when the infringing products they sell are a fraction of their overall business and even if they have since stop making or selling product. But that is not the goal of P&W, it wasn't the goal of LM, and its not the goal of most licensing firms. Now...when the IP lawyers get involved it could be a different story their goals can be much different. In most cases this is the last resort.

When starting a licensing program Licensors must first identify all the infringers and license the ones that make sense....not neccessarily the ones that agreed to pay the most (but I'd be lying if I said it wasn't a factor). We can't license everyone...so some manufacturers are going to have to stop making product. This benefits the remaining manufacturers and in most cases increases the quality of the products in the market place. When manufacturers become licensees they may be held to higher standards than before, because of the requirements of the Licensor. For example anyone that is interested in becoming a P&W licensee will be have to be willing to produce high quality product. So that consumers automatically know that if it says Pratt & Whitney on it that it isn't a compromising product. In most cases this forces the qualtity and service of all manufacturers in that product catagory to increase in an effort to stay competitive. So even if the cost of products increase slightly the quality assurance is usually worth it.

I'm sure the hobby industry would do just fine without the interference of many of these big companies, but that's not an option. They have been educated in the value of their brand the risk that they inncur with unlicensed use and the potential to increase their revenue, if even slighty. So infringers will have to bend...just not all the way over....at least not until the lawyers get involved. In which case it's usually too late to play nice.

Nate

RE: Royalties for models
 

:D"Unfortunately it seems that in the future, they won't be scale. "

Now that's just silly. ;)

RE: Royalties for models
 

OK man, start pumping them out - easy as pie, we'll all be waiting...

RE: Royalties for models
 

There's nothing money can't buy except health and sometimes love. It is easy as pie when you don't have competition believe me. If the scale RC industry was wiped out from a 6% wholesale royalty, then it would only show me how bad the businesses are that are involved around it. I would invest everything I had if I needed too. The road is already paved, just fill in the gaps. It would be like going to a casino and knowing what cards the dealer is going to throw. But of course, this day will never come. As much as it seems real to you, it's unrealistic to me and I'm sure many others.

RE: Royalties for models
 

How would you like it if you were charged 6% extra (processing fee), every time you used your Visa card,,,just for the privilege of using that Visa card. That gives you the right and permission to carry,talk about, and show the card.

David Hudson

RE: Royalties for models
 

This does not effect the consumer, this effects the manufacturer. I've explained how pricing strategy works in another post, but I would be glad to explain it again.

Oh and manufacturers do get hit with a percetage fee everytime someone makes a transaction, about 3-4%.

Remember that most of these products are all being made with salaries which are paid about $.05 and hour to $.50 an hour. I think they can figure out how to bury the 6% pretty easily.

RE: Royalties for models
 

D^$% it, why didn't I go to MBA school so I could learn everything too?!? If you think its so easy, go for it. I'll buy your first kit, royalties to LM and all - man, do you have a lot to learn.

"There's nothing money can't buy except health and sometimes love." the fact that there are people out there who really believe that, as they say, is what is wrong with the world...

Oh well, enough time rattling the bars on the monkey cage, the inhabitants are getting restless - off to build something with my hands...

[8D]