Toxic Fuel ????
 

What do we know about the toxic qualities of our jet fuel and the Turbine oil that goes into it. I'm having a few medical issues that seem to coincide with the date I first bought and started using a turbine. It has to do with kidney funtion and digestive system. I'm getting some tests done but pinpointing a cause seems to be a problem.It's probably a long shot but I just thought I would throw this out there and see if anyone had any feedback. I use K-1 from Home Depo mixed with Mobil # 254 turbine oil. You can't help but get some on you when fueling. What precautions do you guys take. Thanks all . Doug

RE: Toxic Fuel ????
 

Glow fuel containing TOXIC methanol is far, far worse than any turbine fuel or oil. Never touched that stuff have you ?

Turbine fuel or oil is not in the TOXIC class

RE: Toxic Fuel ????
 

@treadstone

sorry to say but you are totally wrong. some of the ingredients of the turbine oils we use are known that they can cause cancer while burned and breethed in.
Plus that it can damage the neural nerve systems.

More dangerous is the military used Jet fuel. This has a lot of additives which are extremely unhealthy!

RE: Toxic Fuel ????
 

Pretty sure most of the oils are MAJORLY toxic. Lots of warnings if you read the spec sheets. Don't know about Mobil specifically, but why not get the OSHA sheets on it, and bring it to your doctor?

K-1 seems pretty benign, which is why it gets burned in home space heaters and such. Jet-A and other variants on aviation fuel, they have all sorts of additives I don't know about.

It's probably NOT such a long shot...I developed a serious reaction to CA, and I was not smart enough to figure it out for a long time, and I know others who have reactions to epoxies or balsa dust or other chemicals we use, too. Good luck with this.

RE: Toxic Fuel ????
 

No doubt, turbine fuel,and fumes can be dangerous in large quantities. Working on and around f-16s for 7 yrs has me wondering. we use jp-8 in our jets, and it is bad. I had noticed a difference in my overall physical health since working on the aircraft. Since leaving the maintenance side of the house and started flying, however, i notice a general turn for the better. This stuff is bad for you, try not to inhale the fumes as much as possible. nick

RE: Toxic Fuel ????
 

The specs sheet on the turbine oils may not be applicable in our hobby as the oils were not meant to be burned. Most are used in gear boxes. Who knows what burning it will do.

RE: Toxic Fuel ????
 

Only thing I know is that it is addictive... :D

Enrique

RE: Toxic Fuel ????
 

I do know some older guys told me not to keep burning Jet-A in my hangar space heater, so I switched to Kero....

RE: Toxic Fuel ????
 

I seem to recall reading that (organo-sp?) phosphates were in some of these turbine oils. I've been told that these are the same nasty ingredients that are in some pesticides. Although it smells good, you definately don't want to be breathing the burned kero / turbine oils. When I first started running my first turbine I was getting really bad headaches, which seemed to be a result of standing in all of the exhaust.

RE: Toxic Fuel ????
 

Just keep a box of nitrile gloves in your field box. Get them anywhere. Home Depot. Lowes, Snap On truck, paint store, etc. The really good ones are about $20 a box though. Would be worth it if it's part of the problem.

RE: Toxic Fuel ????
 

Gas turbine oils DO contain organo-phosphates as a load bearing improver. It has the potential to do serious harm to the human body and is being given very careful consideration by organisations like BALPA and BA and hopefully the oil companies and engine manufacturers. The absorption of organo-phosphates in the human body is accumulative but the susceptibilty to its effects vary from person to person. Treat it with great repect and caution. A very good friend of mine, an airline captain, has just had his ATPL medical cert. withdrawn due to OP poisoning having been diagnosed and is undergoing further medical tests in the US and UK. I, too, lost my ATPL medical shortly after being exposed to considerable amounts of turbine oil vapour, when flying an airliner which was dumping unburned oil vapour into the air conditioning system particularly when power was reduced at the top of descent. No definite link was established BUT I am undergoing further tests shortly as more is now understood about the problems of OP poisoning and better tests have been developed in order to identify it. We had both been flying the same type of aircraft powered by the same engines.

By the time you develop the symptoms of OP poisoning its too late to do anything about it.

Regards,

David Gladwin.

RE: Toxic Fuel ????
 

Andreas.

Check as many SDS's for turbine oils as you can find...I dont think you wil find an oil that is classified as "TOXIC"....some older oils may have the "HAZARDOUS" classification attatched to them. The latest Turbo oil 2197 is not even Classified as "HAZARDOUS"

Here's a post from a previous thread on 2197.... and a link to that thread.


And the link.

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_41...tm.htm#4123247

RE: Toxic Fuel ????
 

I fly for a living. The thing that scares me the most is PRIST, you should read the warnings on that can. It cause cancer everywhere and just not in California. It is an additive either premixed with their fuel load or injected from the truck at time of fill. If in another country you carry it in aerosol style cans in the back of the plane and have them injected it when you fill up. If your buying from an FBO you won't even know if it's there, if you don't ask. I'd rather play with MEK than PRIST. I also use Mobil jet 254, its what we use in the Lears. I'm around it everyday. Wash up is the best defense I know. The way I look at it, everything is out to get you sooner or later. My two cents worth.

RE: Toxic Fuel ????
 

Standard Turbine oils were not designed to be burnt!, and do contain organo-phosphates.
The Gas Turbine Builder's association (GTBA) have done a lot of work on checking suitable oils. Their current recommendation is Mobil DTE (LT) (light). which has proved compatible with all (model size) gas turbines.

check out www.gtba.co.uk

Graham

RE: Toxic Fuel ????
 

I have never used turbine oil in my jets. All I have ever used is Outboard motor two stroke oil to TCW3 specs. No problems in any of my turbines over the years.
I have used it in Wrens, Simjets, & Jetcats.
My first turbine, a Wren MW54 MK2, with many hours use, was returned to Wren to be upgraded to a MK3. The bearings were perfect. A new combustion chamber was fitted as a couple of sticks were burnt out due to the extended use. There was no carbon deposits to be seen.
It's my opinion that all turbines will run perfectly well on kero/two stroke oil.
It's cheaper & less hazardous.

Regards

RE: Toxic Fuel ????
 

Thanks to all who have responded. All good info. If you Google "turbine oils" there is alot of info. There is also reference to enviromentally safe turbine oils. Health issues aside, I always assumed that we had to use turbine oil because it could be burned safely in the combustion chamber and would produce minimal ash and soot. Now that I think about it real jet engines don't have oil in the fuel and the only oil that would be burned would be the small amount that gets by bearing seals. The 2-stroke oil idea makes sense as this is designed to be burned and it's just a matter of lubrication quality after that. I'm not saying that i'm making the switch right now because of warrenty issues , but the manufactures better get on the stick and approve something that isn't dangerous. I for one love the smell and sound of our jets but I think it's time " TODAY " to apply some "green technology". For now I will use the gloves and stop basking in my exhaust plume. Let's see who will step up to the plate first. Wren , Jetcat , Simjet or others. Doug

RE: Toxic Fuel ????
 

Not only wrong, but exceedingly, possibly dangerously wrong!
Methanol IS toxic, but you have to drink a lot of the stuff (4 oz at one sitting) to have any permanent effect, and so far I've never seen anybody drink glow fuel. Organophosphates on the other hand are toxic by mere exposure to the burned by products

Health and safety (From the MSDS)
Methanol is intoxicating but not directly poisonous. It is toxic by its breakdown (toxication) by the enzyme alcohol dehydrogenase in the liver by forming formic acid and formaldehyde which cause blindness by destruction of the optic nerve. [2] Methanol ingestion can also be fatal due to its CNS depressant properties in the same manner as ethanol poisoning. It enters the body by ingestion. Fetal tissue will not tolerate methanol. If methanol has been ingested, a doctor should be contacted immediately. Toxic effects take hours to start, and effective antidotes can often prevent permanent damage. This is treated using ethanol or fomepizole[3]. Either of these drugs acts to slow down the action of alcohol dehydrogenase on methanol by means of competitive inhibition, so that it is excreted by the kidneys rather than being transformed into toxic metabolites. Though it is miscible with water, methanol is very hard to wash off the skin; it is best to treat methanol like gasoline.

RE: Toxic Fuel ????
 

"Let's see who will step up to the plate first. Wren , Jetcat , Simjet or others. Doug"

I think Wren already recommends some high quality synthetic 2 stroke oil, don't they?

RE: Toxic Fuel ????
 

I now have cataracts(sp?) that are keeping me from flying until I get eye surgery and the inner lenses replaced. My eye doctor, who I also fly models with, says he figures it was the fuels and chemicals I got into during my stint working for the local FBO. Jet A, prist, JP=4 and all the stuff that make it, etc. I'm 38 years old, way to young to have this kind of problem he says without having had some help! I watch out for all chemicals, now.
Bryan

RE: Toxic Fuel ????
 

s3nfo

What on earth are you talking about..

Get this straight.

METHANOL....General
Synonyms: methanol, carbinol, colonial spirit, columbian spirit, methylol, methyl hydrate, wood alcohol, wood naphtha, wood spirit, methyl hydroxide, pyroxylic spirit, RCRA waste number U154, meths

Physical data
Appearance: colourless liquid with a characteristic odour
Melting point: -98 C
Boiling point: 64.7 C
Vapour density: 1.1
Vapour pressure: 97.7 mm at 20 C
Specific gravity: 0.791
Flash point: 11 C
Explosion limits: 6% - 36 %
Autoignition temperature: 464 C

Stability
Stable. May react violently with acids, acid chlorides, acid anhydrides, oxidizing agents, reducing agents and alkali metals. Protect from moisture. Highly flammable.

Toxicology

Toxic by inhalation, ingestion or skin absorption. May be a reproductive hazard. Ingestion may be fatal. Risk of very serious, irreversible damage if swallowed. Exposure may cause eye, kidney, heart and liver damage. Chronic or substantial acute exposure may cause serious eye damage, including blindness. Irritant. Narcotic. UK exposure limits: long-term 200 ppm, short term 250 ppm.

RE: Toxic Fuel ????
 

Thanks Graham, I was in touch with a member of your orginization some time ago about DTE light and have been using it since. I notice a big difference in smell, or lack of smell. It comes in a 5 gallon pail here and I get it from http://www.jlindustrial.com/index.jsp . It was Wren that offered this suggestion to me. It is easy for me to handle. I measure oil and put it into my 15 gallon tanks, then get kero at the local petrolium station. I believe US military is using this oil with drones. I'll stay with this oil and fuel source for a while and then check what is going on inside.

Joe

RE: Toxic Fuel ????
 

Then what happens to the oil from engines that run a total loss oil system ?

RE: Toxic Fuel ????
 

What brand of 2 cycle are guys using?

RE: Toxic Fuel ????
 

It goes into the trash heap with the rest of the 500K dollar engine that caught on fire and ground to a catastrophic halt on the way back into the airport :D

RE: Toxic Fuel ????
 

I know of only one engine that uses a total loss system and that is the RR Viper on which the rear bearing is lubed by total loss and it then merges with the exhaust gas. It is heated but not burned i.e does not go throught the combustion can. Oil useage , is if I remember correctly, about 1 pint per hour.

But call me slow witted if you like but I dont understand why some of you guys want to argue the toss, if something is even considered to be toxic, hazardous, call it what you will, why don't you take sensible simple precautions when handling it. i.e wear disposable gloves when mixing fuel and a good hand wash afterwards. ...........and just because some of the warnings have been removed from cans of turbine oil don't assume it doesn't contains OPs, we had noticed that and are VERY suspicious and breathing running engine fumes from a model gas turbine with a burnt oil/fuel mixture is less than a sensible thing to do. You have been warned, how you deal with that warning is entirely your affair, but I repeat that when the symptoms appear its TOO LATE. Its your health.

This issue is being debated in Parliament and is being taken VERY seriously by BALPA and was acknowledged as a growing problem which needs a solution, by Rod Eddington, retiring CEO of BA when the issue was raised at the last annual delegates meeting of BALPA.

Regards,

David Gladwin.

BALPA= British Airline Pilots Association.