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RE: Thinning Clear
I have decided to give a good coat of unthinned clear. Let that cure and rub out the paint lines and smooth then a coat of thinned or reduced clear. We tested at 100% and came out as good as the test piece was so I am very pleased.
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RE: Thinning Clear
Fat Boy , When you say refrain from using a Cheater regulator at the gun , do you mean just use the regulator at the compressor to set the inlet pressure at the gun ? I use a Sata mini-jet 4 Hvlp with a 1.4 nozzle, and I have been using a mini regulator at the gun set a 30 psi inlet pressure, which comes out at around 10 psi at the nozzle. My compressor is usually set at 40 psi wiyh this set up, and I regulate down to 30 with the reg. at the gun. Thanks for all the info guys, Jack.
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RE: Thinning Clear
Les, blushing is different, that relates more to the dullness with lacquer paints caused by drying to fast with high humidity, retarder would help that, but thats all pretty much history. but I did misspell die back...
george |
RE: Thinning Clear
Reduce the clear acording to the directions.The only time you would want to put in more reducer is if your paint gun has a small fluid tip and it will not come out of the gun at a reasonable rate.The more reducer the LESS the SHINE.If you are having a orange peel problem use slower drying reducer.The more solvents (reducer) that you put in clear will cause poor gloss.As the solvents leave the surface of the clear they cause imperfections in the surface which reduce the shine.Also will make the clear less durable and scratch resistant.This is true for all paints no matter what brand.Paint cars and a few planes for a living.Some of my best aircraft paint jobs are with no reducer at all.Reducer is just to get the paint to flow out of the gun.
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RE: Thinning Clear
ORIGINAL: Jack28 Fat Boy , When you say refrain from using a Cheater regulator at the gun , do you mean just use the regulator at the compressor to set the inlet pressure at the gun ? I use a Sata mini-jet 4 Hvlp with a 1.4 nozzle, and I have been using a mini regulator at the gun set a 30 psi inlet pressure, which comes out at around 10 psi at the nozzle. My compressor is usually set at 40 psi wiyh this set up, and I regulate down to 30 with the reg. at the gun. Thanks for all the info guys, Jack. The idea is to have the desired air VOLUME at the gun (or at the hose). You want the SOURCE regulated. There is actually a formula for hose diameter/length to maintain proper air VOLUME to the gun. HVLP guns work on air VOLUME not pressure...yes they still work when you add more pressure, but that's not the concept behind an HVLP gun. Air should be rgulated pre-hose with NO resrtictions after that. If you regulate at the gun you rob all air VOLUME from the gun and are only working with air pressure...I know to some the difference between the two may be hard to grasp...but it's night and day in the HVLP world. With an HVLP gun the difference affects atomization of material at the cap. |
RE: Thinning Clear
Thanks Fatboy, I understand now. Jack
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RE: Thinning Clear
Im intrigued. Isn't volume directly related to pressure?
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RE: Thinning Clear
ORIGINAL: jetfreak Im intrigued. Isn't volume directly related to pressure? Not in the least... C.F.M=cubic feet per meter.... P.S.I=pounds per square inch Pounds and Cubic feet are not related. With volume you move MORE air quickly, with pressure you can move the same air but NOT the volume so it takes longer to move the air. Try this...take a deep breath...open your mouth wide...now empty your lungs with one big whoosh. Now take a deep breath...hold your lips tightly together...now empty your lungs. You've just filled the compressor with the same amount of air...and emptied it at two different rates. You moved a high volume of air very quickly and then moved a low volume of air at a high pressure...do you see the differance??? H.V.L.P.= high VOLUME low PRESSURE |
RE: Thinning Clear
Anyone who has seen Vern Kramer, Larry K., and Francis P.'s Bandits, Bobcats, and Kingcats have to agree they are some of the best paint jobs ever laid down, and look identical 5 years and 500 flights later.....according to Vern, all done with PPG at factory recommended 4:1:1 mix, only altering which hardeners and reducer to use based on temperature, which is relatively constant down in Naples, FL......
He delivered a new Compo SB to a customer at FJ 2006.......drop dead gorgeous.......I forgot the exact weight gain from the paint that he mentioned, but it was under a pound...... He does finish with sand/buff......... Tom |
RE: Thinning Clear
lets say you have two 50' air hoses.One set at 40 pounds,one set at 100 pounds.The one set at 100 pounds will have more volume.I was tought to run high pressure in the hose and regulate at the gun with a regulator made for an hvlp gun,this is a must for hvlp guns.Without high pressure in the hose and regulated at the gun you will not get the volume you need.This should be stated in the directions that come with hvlp paint guns.Another point to help all you do-it your self guys.HVLP guns are only around because of the EPA.They do save some material,less overspray.Most profesional painters use them because they have to,its the law in some areas.It is much more dificult to get a nice slick surface with a HVLP verses a conventional spray gun.I see alot of painters10-20 years experience that can not get the paint to lay out with an hvlp.Do not use them if you don't have to. If you are just learning to paint your chances of getting a good job with an hvlp is not very good.unless you want to spend alot of time sanding and buffing.With a good eurathane paint you shoud not have to buff,unless you get some dirt.Some ureathanes will hold better gloss not being buffed.A small conventional gravity feed paint gun would be the best choice for a beginner.
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RE: Thinning Clear
ORIGINAL: flyexperimental lets say you have two 50' air hoses.One set at 40 pounds,one set at 100 pounds.The one set at 100 pounds will have more volume.I was tought to run high pressure in the hose and regulate at the gun with a regulator made for an hvlp gun,this is a must for hvlp guns.Without high pressure in the hose and regulated at the gun you will not get the volume you need.This should be stated in the directions that come with hvlp paint guns.Another point to help all you do-it your self guys.HVLP guns are only around because of the EPA.They do save some material,less overspray.Most profesional painters use them because they have to,its the law in some areas.It is much more dificult to get a nice slick surface with a HVLP verses a conventional spray gun.I see alot of painters10-20 years experience that can not get the paint to lay out with an hvlp.Do not use them if you don't have to. If you are just learning to paint your chances of getting a good job with an hvlp is not very good.unless you want to spend alot of time sanding and buffing.With a good eurathane paint you shoud not have to buff,unless you get some dirt.Some ureathanes will hold better gloss not being buffed.A small conventional gravity feed paint gun would be the best choice for a beginner. Yes we were forced to switch to HVLP guns by the E.P.A. And no it is NOT more difficult to get a nice smooth surface with an HVLP gun. A good friend of mine that I used to paint with swore by his DeVilbiss JGA...hell I have one and I did too. I bought a SATA92 and he just laughed at me...till he saw what I was laying down. He then bought a SATA95 and never used his JGA again. I own a SATA Minijet, SATA95, 2 SATA92s and a SATA primer gun...I will never shoot base, clear or single stage from a convetional gun again. That's not to say I won't ever use my convetional guns...I have a BINKS #7, 2 DeVilbiss JGAs and a couple of guns for primer/sealer...they all shoot laquer like a dream, but don't hold a candle to my SATAs as far as atomization of base and urethane/cear. And to say that you shouldn't have to buff....that's the difference between a "production" paint job and a "show winning" paint job. I have seen MANY paint jobs that are thought to be flawless, that I can pick apart all day long. HVLP guns are a beautiful thing...at least my SATAs are. If you have trouble getting paint or clear to lay out, it's NOT the gun. If the gun is set up correctly and your delivering the proper C.F.M.s (not P.S.I) to the gun, the gun works...it's the operator that needs to change his or her style. It's too easy to blame the equipment. Also another note as far as C.F.M.s...a single stage compressor will not hold a candle to a dual stage compessor as far as the amount of C.F.M.s delivered...if you are looking at comressors, or already own one the C.F.M. rating should be stated somewhere on that compressor. Believe me...I'm not trying to start any quarrals...I've seen to many high dollar HVLP guns just sitting collecting dust because the users had no concept of what makes an HVLP gun tick and just gave up on them without researching the proper set up and use of those guns. I had been a painter almost 10 years before I shot with an HVLP gun...Hell I laughed at em'...it didn't take long for me to stop laughing!!! I'll see if I can dig that book out this weekend and post the theory and the formulas concerning HVLP gun operation...I know I'm just some guy hittin a keyboard to most...maybe the text can give a more vivid description. Jeff |
RE: Thinning Clear
By the way... I've been a painter for right at 20 years. Many years in production shops, 4yrs doing Corvettes customs and exotics, 2yrs doing 55-57 Chevys, 3yrs at American Ironhorse Motorcycles fixing paint warranty issues...and the last three years at Lockheed Martin painting the exterior of the F-16. I have also done a handful of R/C jets....a few of which I know have been seen by fellow modelers.
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RE: Thinning Clear
Me and you both can do a great job with an HVLP,did not want to bash anyone either.Don't have time to argue. I was just trying to point out to the novices that the conventional gun is easier to learn,without ruining a paint job.I use three Sata HVLP gravity feeds,and have one Sata Jet 90 gravity feed(conventional) I use them all,but for a first paint job I feel the average person would do best with the conventional gun.How many of the guys on here do you think have thier paint guns on 3/4 air line?I would bet most of the beginners are more set up with equipment that would work best with a conventional gun.You are right about the cheater regulators,but I don't think thier is anything wrong with a good diaphram regulator on your gun.That way if you don't have 3/4 airline you can still have good airflow.
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RE: Thinning Clear
Point taken...in my opinion having made a living using both convetional and HVLP tech., if an HVLP is set up as intended the learning curve is the same with both.
I agree, not many hook up to a 3/4" hose...and many may not have a 7hp dual stage compessor with an 80gal tank sitting in the garage....BUT for those that DO have HVLP guns, understanding the concept of HVLP may help to "cheat" a bit. I spray alot from my Craftsman roll around compressor...I still use a dessacant drier, a toilet paper filter and a regulator/filter, but I use a shorter hose and NO air restrictions to the gun...so I still maintain an acceptable or workable amount of air volume to the gun for spraying smaller stuff. Really it's not a matter of one being easier to use than the other...but more understanding the theory behind them both...and the fact that set up for HVLP use may cost a bit more, but that initial cost makes up for itself very quickly in material saved in transfer efficiancy. Jeff |
RE: Thinning Clear
Does anyone have any tips on using PPG Flexed N Flat 2060? Rick
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RE: Thinning Clear
this is how i do things, many people may not agree but i got this tip from simon murry one of the worlds best airbrush artists and i believe he got this tip from nub (of occ fame)
when clearing we use NO THINNER!!!! the way i clear all my work is as follows, apply all bases and airbrush work as required.... mix my clear 2parts clear, 1.2parts hardner and a few drops of anti silicone.. spray a light tack coat of clear and leave for a few mins until sticky/dry but not too dry. then give a medium coat all over the work and leave to go tacky, touching the clear to see if it strings, if it strings... wait dont apply more clear yet! when the clear stops stringing give another meduim/wet coat after the clear has baked and been left for a few days i flat the whole work down with 800grit paper until its all dull with no orange peel, then the next day i recoat, starting with a tack coat then once this is sticky/dry i go for a heavy coat then walk away and leave to dry. a few days later i run a polishing mop over the whole work and polish to a high shine. i personally spray at a high pressure compaired to most, i will clearcoat at about 80-100psi most people recomend around 40psi the extra pressure along with the anti-silicone gives a glass finish everytime! ******* using no thinner does a few things! 1. it reduces all possiblity of reactions when recoating the clear, 2. it reduces possiblity of sovent pop in the clear 3. it gives a higher build of clear solids using the anti silicone does 2 thing... 1. IT ACTS AS A FLOW ADDITIVE (basically acts like i thinner but without solvent content) this is the main reason i use anti silicone but it also serves its original purpose of 2. reduces risks on fish eyes and contamination showing. ******** if you havent tried using anti-silicone instead of thinner give it a try, i was sceptical at first but once ive used it i wont go back to using thinners again!!!!! regards tom www.aeropaint.co.uk airbrush artwork, custom paint and grahics |
RE: Thinning Clear
I have had great results mixing the ratio the directions give.I use ppg global products,have used the 2060 per the directions but don't use it enough to give you the ratio the directions give.One thing I have noticed is most matting clears have more reducer than your glossy clears,not following the directions may result in more gloss than you are wanting.I have mixed a flat clear not putting the required amount of reducer in it( I did not follow the directions)the clear did not flatten out like it should have.From my experience when you are going for a flat finish a little too much reducer would be better than not enough.
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RE: Thinning Clear
ORIGINAL: ONYX140 this is how i do things, many people may not agree but i got this tip from simon murry one of the worlds best airbrush artists and i believe he got this tip from nub (of occ fame) when clearing we use NO THINNER!!!! the way i clear all my work is as follows, apply all bases and airbrush work as required.... mix my clear 2parts clear, 1.2parts hardner and a few drops of anti silicone.. spray a light tack coat of clear and leave for a few mins until sticky/dry but not too dry. then give a medium coat all over the work and leave to go tacky, touching the clear to see if it strings, if it strings... wait dont apply more clear yet! when the clear stops stringing give another meduim/wet coat after the clear has baked and been left for a few days i flat the whole work down with 800grit paper until its all dull with no orange peel, then the next day i recoat, starting with a tack coat then once this is sticky/dry i go for a heavy coat then walk away and leave to dry. a few days later i run a polishing mop over the whole work and polish to a high shine. i personally spray at a high pressure compaired to most, i will clearcoat at about 80-100psi most people recomend around 40psi the extra pressure along with the anti-silicone gives a glass finish everytime! ******* using no thinner does a few things! 1. it reduces all possiblity of reactions when recoating the clear, 2. it reduces possiblity of sovent pop in the clear 3. it gives a higher build of clear solids using the anti silicone does 2 thing... 1. IT ACTS AS A FLOW ADDITIVE (basically acts like i thinner but without solvent content) this is the main reason i use anti silicone but it also serves its original purpose of 2. reduces risks on fish eyes and contamination showing. ******** if you havent tried using anti-silicone instead of thinner give it a try, i was sceptical at first but once ive used it i wont go back to using thinners again!!!!! regards tom www.aeropaint.co.uk airbrush artwork, custom paint and grahics good idea on cars and bikes, but this method will build up WAY too much product on a moel airplane. It will end up just being heavy. Voy |
RE: Thinning Clear
i beg to differ wojtek,
i admit if u follow as above it will be more heavy than normal, however for model planes and helis just go to the first stage, dont do the recoat a few days later, this is the way i do it, i mainly do f3a planes (as u know cry out for super super light finishes) on average i can get a f3a 2m fus to come out with a total of around 35grams added weight in paint and clear! just 35grams! theres is other ways i make it this light aswell but nothing to compromise the finish or product! tom www.aeropaint.co.uk airbrush artwork, custom paint and grahics |
RE: Thinning Clear
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This is my Eagle right after completing the paint work, cleared with Omni reduced 200% and here it is a couple of years later. Here is a picture of my F-16 just painted this spring. Reducing the clear as John Redman says works. I didnt buff or sand at all. You wont be sorry with the results just take your time.
mb |
RE: Thinning Clear
Hey guys,
I just cleared a fuselage and got some orange peel. I don't want to keep adding coats. Im using Concept clear, DCX61,a nd DT8?? reducer, reduced about 1:1. The only way I was able to get a glass surface was by spraying just a couple of inches off and let it build up. Buth then the overspray would mess up the adjacent area and I sould have to coat again, and again. Did the 1st light tack coat, let it dry, them medium, then wet. I'm using an HVLP at 25psi. how do I fix it? I don't have a buffer but I can handle elbow grease :D PS. I have DU6, would that help instead of using DX61? Thanks, David |
RE: Thinning Clear
Concept Clear, is that PPG? Its been a while for me. If it is, then thin it thin it thin it. Start with 1 part clear/hardner to 2.5 - 3 parts reducer. I know it seams crazy but just do it. You cant make it worse that what you already have. It will work. Shoot 3-4 coats working slowly just to the point that it wets out and shines then stop and let it tack. Come back and do it again and so forth.
Go back and re-read the thread. What I would do, is sand smooth then reclear. Reduce it A BUNCH! You can get it to flow like glass when spraying close and heavy and orange peel the proper distance during shooting tells me your not reduced enough and also kick up your air pressure to about 40-45. The P-sheetsthat tell your the mixing ratios are designed to me EPA regs. Which, in CA is all about low VOC discharge. Painters don't mix to the p-sheet specs. They mix it to paint and flow nice. Painters dont like love rubbing their work. On show cars I have heard of extream practices of shooting a car with up to 10 coats of clear. Then let it cure for 6 months and up to a year. They then come back and colorsand the clear and polish to make the colors under the clear. POP! Typically on candy paint jobs. Just hear say though. Just play with it, but you will find that reducing it will solve almost all your problems that you are seeing. Good Luck! |
RE: Thinning Clear
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Thinning clear coat is done for a number of reasons, but NONE of them have to do with buffing. For buffing you want a nice thick clear coat so that you have plenty of material to sand, then cut and buff. Each step is taking thickness of clear, so starting with a thin layer is not good. Look at mostly all custom painters doing airbrush work or a lot of graphics, they all put on a super thick layer of clear so that they can sand it down and have all the layers blend together. Most of their clear coats look orange peeled from building up lots of layers of clear coat to polish. This is the norm with auto paint, and is the reason that the PPG paints are formulated too thick for our planes.
I thin clear to allow it to flow out nice and allow me to get the thinnest coat possible with the best finish that does not need to be cut/buffed. For this I take a cap full of lacquer thinner and add it to my clear coat. I am a pylon racer (well used to be, and probably will be again soon) so the weight is critical. Finish is more of a pride thing, not to mention the cleaner the skin the faster the plane. These little guy's are doing 200mph, so every little ripple in the clear coat adds up. Orange peel finish on these racers would cut the speed down enough to make the plane worthless. I am posting pictures of some of the planes I built/painted. Some are mine, some were custom built for other people. All graphics were painted on, no decals. Hope this helps, Dave |
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My favorite plane to date has to be this one that I built for current FAI world champion Randy "Smoke" Bridge of Florida.
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RE: Thinning Clear
Guys,
What's a good source for buying finer grit sandpapaer for polishing? Also, what brand of buffing compound works pretty good? Is 3M Perfect-it any good? Thanks, David |
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