Frequency control?
 

I'm posting in this forum because I CD the Mid Atlantic Jet Rally, and have been doing it every Memorial day weekend for the last 16 yrs. My concern is TX control with 2.4 TX's. Many people in my club are so absolutely, positively, certain there will be no need for concern about frequency control or types of interference. I look upon this attitude as ignorance, and I'm a bit skepticle. This 2.4 technology is new to the world of R/C, I'm not sure what the outcome might be when you get multiple TX's on the flight line and in the pits, either all 2.4 or mixed with 72mhz. I just read an article about interference causing an airplane to crash due to a news helicopter's data link transmission. I'm hoping that 2.4 is going to be bullet proof and there will be no concern about having multiple TX's on, but for right now the thought of jets flying in the neighborhood of 200mph with a relatively new technology, just makes me a bit nervous. If there is anyone out there that has concerns or opinions or even advice, I would welcome it.

Thanks
Frank A Rega

RE: Frequency control?
 

Frank, In your position, I can understand your concern. My take on this is as follows. 2.4 Ghz technology is not new. It has been around for quite a long time and is in daily use by many use-critical entities. Hospital medical gear, communications, and of course the military. The AMA has tested it thoroughly and have authorized its use in all of our flying models, and of course they back up that blessing with their insurance policy. The technological folks, engineers etc, who understand the system and how it really works, tell us that it is so far superior to our old, quite vulnerable, 72Mhz stuff as to be not even in the same realm.
Old habits and ideas are difficult to let go...for example, the need for a frequency pin. It reminds me of when we only had radio...TV was a new gadget. The nay-sayers said it's just a fad...it'll never last. Well, we all know better now don't we. I am flying all of my aircraft on 2.4...and have been for some time. Gas, glow, etc and I have never ever had the slightest hint of a glitch...and my flying club is the largest in the nation. Over 400 members.
I cannot give anyone an absolute on anything, but my money is on the 2.4 ghz system, and I will fly it at Top Gun this year too.
Wishing you the best.
Jim

RE: Frequency control?
 

Frank

i will curious as to what you end up doing. I am CD of the central texas jet rally in austin. our club has required 2.4 users to put a card into a frequency slot dedicated to 2.4. not so much to reserve the frequency for them, but to let others at the field know they are on 2.4 and not on 72mhz. i wonder if the sentiment will be the same at events, where as if someone strolls up to the flightline without a pin, are they going to wonder if he "has" the frequency or is he on 2.4? I dont know the answer yet. i may prepare for having pins for 2.4 at the meet, but then leave it up to the pilots at the pilot meetings if they feel comfortable with not having pins for 2.4....

RE: Frequency control?
 

The one thing that gives away the 2.4 is the short black antenna. All you have to do is look down the flight line. If they have a short and black antenna it's 2.4 gig. Dennis

RE: Frequency control?
 

That's pretty obvious DadsToysBG. But I think the issue with frequency control is this; you'll start to see more and more people arriving to the field each year with these things. The old habit of going over to the frequency board will die for those with the new equipment, but not for the old equipment. So, I would suggest that the habit of checking your transmitter in is still valid and getting a "pin" from the impound to fly at a flying station is still valid whether your at your local club or a jet rally. You need to monitor who's allowed to fly and when and not freak everybody out with transmitters on the flight line during startup. I'd like to see how this years Florida Jets turnout in terms of frequency/flying procedures. Hopefully someone there will chime in.

Ken

RE: Frequency control?
 

Frank, I would say to wait and see what the different events do. There will be a few events before ours, and I'm sure we will "learn" from those experiences. I doubt we will have trouble though, but it will still be interesting to see how it is handled at these events, especially FJ this weekend.

See you soon, (only 49 days left in the sand!)

George

RE: Frequency control?
 

Just got the March AMA magazine in the mail. In it there is an article on the DX7. AMA makes the recommendation that clubs provide flightline controls for spread spectrum radios; suggesting multiple pins and identification spaces on the board for SS. They give two reasons as rationale:
1) Keeps members in the practice of getting a pin.
2) Provide a method of flightline control.

As VP of the local club and event co-chairman for Michigan Jets I've been in on several discussions regarding this topic. Our initial feeling was to do nothing at the field since only a few members have SS at this time. For events impound the radios as a means of flightline control. Our flying season in Michigan doesn't start for a couple of months yet so we are watching what others are doing and are open for suggestions.

The AMA recommendation does make sense. Regarding #1, I can see it now, some guy gets use to flying his SS for a couple of months then shows up one day with a plane on 72 mhz., forgets to pull the pin and causes an accident. Regarding #2 for normal everyday flying flightline control is not an issue at our club, however it is needed at events and it is good to let others know that someone is flying on SS.

Joe

RE: Frequency control?
 

EXACTLY CORRECT!

RE: Frequency control?
 

i dont believe 2.4 should be impounded in any way.. I do believe local clubs should make slots for your AMA card to show you are a member and you are on 2.4 to ease everyones mind. At meets, i think 2.4 pilots should register with the impound and recieve a special colored pin to keep, this pin lets everyone know on the flight line that you are on 2.4.. This should work flawlessly for meets of less than 100 pilots.. Jury is still out on the larger meets of 200 pilots or more on "can you get a channel" when you turn on or "how many radios" can be on together but i dont think there is an issue with a shoot down.. I also think the FLIGHT LINE personel should police who flys, how many times you fly and make sure everyone gets a turn, NOT the impound that is not the impounds purpose. Russ

RE: Frequency control?
 

j Campbell

probably not a bad approach. simply give the pilot a pin when they register, and ask that they display the pin when they go to the flightline. I will see how the mississippi boys handle it at their event.

RE: Frequency control?
 

If you’re NOT using your Tx, you should impound it. If your using it, there should be at least some ID in the impound about you and your Tx technology. Because someday, maybe me, will be at the field with my JR 9303 with the new module and antenna and somebody might think I'm still on 72Mhz. I think for the time being some of the same operating procedures with traditional Tx are necessary with the new type. It's kind of like building the confidence in your fellow modelers who don't fly turbine powered jets.

Ken

RE: Frequency control?
 

I had a thought of replacing those red antenna flags with maybe a blue one, or even flourescent orange, something bright signifying that it is 2.4 Gigahertz. (1) it stands out a little more than just a pin and (2) it is functional. [8D] Just a thought though.

RE: Frequency control?
 

my suggestion would be to adjust your frequency board to hold members AMA cards for those who use the 2.4 radios. this will help control the flight line, limiting the amount of radios out at an event.

all the above suggestions are good advice. but i agree, see what Frank T. does at Florida Jets and see how he hadled it. i think Frank T will be the first to really deal with the new radios at a major event.

Frank, see you on Memorial Weekend

Mark McCracken

RE: Frequency control?
 

So far I'm getting some useful input, I really appreciate you guys chiming in. BTW the Mid Atlantic jet Rally is now being named" (H "Bud" Donnelly Memorial Jet Rally). Bud was a very good friend and an excellent club member and contributor, He will surely be missed.

RE: Frequency control?
 

Guys,

Frank initially said he was going to issue a pin for 2.4 GHz at FL Jets, but decided in the end not to require any pins for 2.4 GHz. It hasn't been a major problem - mainly due to the fact that the winds were so bad today that nobody wanted to fly (and only a few did).

John Redman flew the snot out of his KingCat with a Spektrum module in his JR 10X and another JR rep flew a CARF Flash with a DX-7. He went WAY out there, and there were never any problems with either aircraft. BV also flew his new Electra jet on a DX-7.

I don't think that the Spektrum 2.4 GHz radios are going to be a problem at the smaller events, or even at the bigger ones, until more folks get them. Also, I think its still unclear how the various manufacturer's 2.4 GHz systems are going to play together.

One of the interesting tests will be at the Joe Nall flyin (> 500 pilots) when 100 or more of those systems show up. It appears that only a maximum of 40 can transmit at a time, and what will happen when 40 guys have their radios on in the pits or the ready-line and a guy steps up to fly and his Spektrum TX won't radiate because it can't find 2 open "channels" amongst the 80 that Spektrum has divided the band up into.

Frank, for this year's MidAtlantic, I would recommend allowing Spektrum DX-7 or module flyers to fly, and NOT impound their transmitter. I would simply keep a list of pilots (and the corresponding aircraft), that are flying on 2.4, just so that everybody knows who they are. Frankly, this year, I'd be surprised if more than a dozen Spektrum systems show up.

Bob

RE: Frequency control?
 

I just purchased the Spread Spectrum due to the fact of having to wait an hour at events for a frequency pen on 72mhz when all of the Spectrum guys were flying and getting back in line. They didn't have an impound for Spectrum radios and we had over 200 pilots. This solves the frequency hog problems and I can't wait for the module for the PCM 10x...

P. Richards aka Swat Team:D

RE: Frequency control?
 

We don't need no stinking pins no more:D been waiting for these days for a long time!!!

The control freaks can still play flight line boss if that's what they feel they need to do. I don't mean to run down good flight line bosses they do have their place to be sure...

Control of the flight line for the most part takes care of itself...as the sky gets full of high speed high dollar aircraft it seems to have a way of self induced control. Flight line bosses do have a way of helping big time keeping taxiing / landing / takeoff traffic separated.


During one of the busiest Superman days ever.. Remember that Saturday the day after two days of rain.. Humm, what year was that? Anyway the flight line smelled of burning Jet fuel from sunrise to past sunset. And even that day at most two or three were waiting... the flight line was full all day long. I changed frequencies three times that day!

Lee H. DeMary
AMA 36099

RE: Frequency control?
 

My Biggest Concern is that a pilot may have one 2.4 Gh radio and a couple of 72 mhz. When switching from the 2.4 to the 72 mhz they may forget to grab the pin (not requiring a pin for the 2.4). This could very quikly become a problem for someone in the air on the same 72 Mhz frequency and cause problems. I feel a pin system for the 2.4 should be incorporated into all flying sites. This would restrict the number of aircraft in the air at one time (my local club is 5) and it would keep you in the habit of reaching for a freqency pin.

Joe Lewis

RE: Frequency control?
 

Hi Joe,
Concern and rules for the human condition sorta help, but no matter what if there is a way to screw something up it will be done. Kinda like limiting the number of aircraft up at one time.. Most if not all midairs that I have been a part of or witnessed have been when just two airplanes were flying...go figure!

The field I fly at normally has no regulation limiting the number of airplanes up at any one time. I've personally have never seen more than eight up at once. And those days there were at least 50 aircraft in the pit area. Self induced limitations come naturally, on the other hand arbitrary limits cause the human condition to rebel with undesired results. I'm not suggesting this is you Joe, but let's face it.. some people are not content unless they can try and control what someone else does.
Lee

RE: Frequency control?
 

Well said and I agree totaly, I think its best to keep what ever system a site may have
in place and the same for both 72mhz and 2.4gh.

RE: Frequency control?
 

is it really asking to much out of the 2.4 users to impound their radios??? are you just so proud of it that you can't let it out of your sight?

at our field it's been proven time and time again that if you start to slack on the frequency control, it runs wild and plans crash, very few of us in our club are on 53 MHz but we still impound at every event, same with the 2.4 users.

kc

RE: Frequency control?
 

YEP IT IS...
Impounding a radio that can't possibly interfere with anything else at or near the site seems to me about like feeling the need to impound everyone's flight box... what's the purpose? Impounding is enough of a hassle to begin with why continue wasting effort when not necessary?

Flight line control is another story depending on the situation.

Best case safety precaution would be to ban any old radio system's that require frequency control:D Just think of the extra workers a CD would have to use in other ways. And just think of the pressure all of us owner's of the old out dated crap would put on manufactures?

I am a former club Safety Officer about 12 years service for the Jefco Aeromod'lers a Gold Leader Club with over 250 members.... I believe I know something about safety and control when it is necessary, and when it is a waste of time!

My opinion is the sooner everyone is forced to switch over to the SSS systems the better! I don't use the word forced lightly here either... the sooner the better! I have never ever liked the idea someone, anyone in the parking lot, or within 1 mile of where models are flying some idiot could accidentally or intentionally shoot down another airplane. THE SOONER WE BAN EVERYTHING BUT SSS BASED RADIO'S THE BETTER in my opinion.
Lee H. DeMary
AMA 36099

RE: Frequency control?
 

Lee, you are 100% correct in your beliefs. Continuing to impound 2.4 Ghz radios is ridicilous. If you are not responsible enough to grab a pin for your old 72Mhz transmitter then maybe you should reconsider going to events or choose to fly on either Spectrum or 72 Mhz and stay with that choice. Don't make it difficult for the rest of us who want to embrace new technology because others are irresponsible and cannot remember to go get a pin.
I am finding more and more that the people who want to regulate the Spectrum radios want this simply because they do not understand the technology as is demonstrated in the very first post.

Frank, I am not criticizing you in any way because I understand that you are looking for information but instead of being persuaded by alot of people on the internet who lack understanding, you are better off doing the reading and research yourself.

If anyone believes that these radios will interfere with each other or even another brand of radio then you need to do some more research and reading on the subject. Does anyone really believe that Horizon would spend a million dollars to develop this technology and bring it to market if it wasn't going to work?

Seriously guys!!

Gary

RE: Frequency control?
 

If SSS is so much the cat's meow, why havn't the radio manufacturer's released high end 9 or 10 channel radios on 2.4? That's holding up the switch over for a lot of us. I have airplanes that can't use just 6 or 7 channels. Maybe this is the last flying season we will have to deal with 72mhz. But Futaba and JR are giving us no indication of what to expect.

Chris

RE: Frequency control?
 

Chris, the 9 channel modules will be available at the end of April, for several brands, go to Horizon's web site and you can see for yourself. Gary