Flameout problem
 

I have a problem that is starting to consistantly rear it's ugly head, and one of the guys I fly with suggested I describe what's happening and see if anyone comes up with any ideas we haven't thought of yet.

I have a Bandit ARF with an Artes Falcon. The turbine has around 2 1/2 hours run time and starts and runs great - except for when I do the following:

Roll inverted downwind - push round the turn to the upwind leg - on the upwind leg it will flameout.
This happened 3 times in a row - first time was a surprise, but all was fine.
Second time I was testing the previous scenario to see if it would happen again - and it did.
Third time I had moved the filter so it sat vertically, replaced sections of the fuel line and made sure all was as it should be. All connections had been checked. The Data Terminal just says flameout after it's happened.

The UAT is totally free from air and there are no bubbles in the lines after landing. All batteries are as they should be. The problem has not happened at a constant duration or fuel level in flight. The three flameouts have occurred over two sessions of flying. Today I flew the first flight - replicated the pattern, all was fine, then replicated again and the turbine cut.
I then flew a second flight and did not do any prolonged inverted although I pushed a bit of -G and some slow and 4 point rolls. This time everything ran great.

I'm relatively new to turbines and not the worlds biggest boffin on troubleshooting these problems yet, so any help would be appreciated.

RE: Flameout problem
 

Have you checked your filter?

Have you tried to run the engine on the ground held upside down at partial/full throttle ?

RE: Flameout problem
 

Don't ask me why but monitor your turbine batt. to see if all the cells are in good shape.

Good luck and happy flying.

RE: Flameout problem
 

I took the filter out when I re worked the fuel lines. I took it apart and flushed it although it was totally clean and clear anyway.

RE: Flameout problem
 

Are you seeing any smoke when it flames out.

A very large white cloud could point to a internal fuel system problem, fuel pooling up and under the right conditions gets into the combuster, I have had that one.

A bit of smoke could be an air bubble getting in some how, most of us have seen that one.

No smoke at all normally points to the fuel stopping all together, a bad solenoid or a piece of trash that moves into the right spot under the right conditions.

Steven.

RE: Flameout problem
 

Check the fuel pump voltage, that will tell you if the pump is going bad.

RE: Flameout problem
 

I think I have your answer. I've had the same problem on both my Artes Falcon and Artes Bee. Both came with a gold colored in line filter. It's the same one that Hangar 9 sells. Anyway that filter will trap a lot of air, when you do a manuever that shakes a bubble loose it will flame out the engine. I'm very sensitive to this issue after my Maverick flamed out and crashed.

The best advice is to use a different filter. I switched to a Dubro filter on my Bee. I still have that filter on my Falcon. Mount it vertically where it can move freely. After priming the line with fuel take a screwdriver or your finger and keep tapping the filter until all of the air is out. Then when you are sure all of the air is out tap it about 10 more times to confirm it. You will be amazed at how many bubbles keep coming out. After all of the air is out it will work fine. Every time you open up your fuel sysyem, run out of fuel, or otherwise get any air into your system you need to go through the tapping exercise to make sure all of the air is out of the filter. The reason my Maverick crashed is because I forgot to do that.

My suggestion is to remove the in line filter for a few flights to confirm that is the problem. Then you can decide to keep tapping, switch to another brand, or run without a filter. A friend who has an Artes Eagle flies without a filter because he does not want to risk a flameout.

The other possibility is that you have air trapped in your UAT. I believe it comes with instructions on how to purge all of the air out. I took mine out of the plane and shook the crap out of it while pumping fuel through it with my fueler to purge it.

Let me know if this works out.

Joe

RE: Flameout problem
 

Birdman. . .

All respondents have offered up their respective solutions. The filter issue is not one I have experienced or heard of. Some key questions and perhaps we can sort this out.

1. Flame out with -0- smoke is simply, fuel starvation. . .air bubble(S) or running out of fuel.

2. Flame out with smoke trail indicates the ECU commanded the system to shut down. The "why" is what we need to know.

With every abnormal ECU action, there is an "Error" message available until you shut the system down (off) so with Data terminal plugged in, use the menu down button which is first on the left. It flashes the Error message. The path to follow to correct the error message may be found in the last few pages of the turbine manual received with your turbine. Trouble shooting. . .

It is important to know the fuel system is without fault. I diagnosed one case similar to yours where the culprit was an undersized vent line which of course restricted the balance of pressure in the system. When this happens, the fuel pump gets orders from the ECU to pump more. This increases amp draw which inturn can effect voltage. Yes, the ECU battery condition of charge is important. Back to the pump. When the PW of the pump rises, it does so as demand increases. If it gets close to its limits, ECU makes the decision to abort the run.

Please feel to email me directly [email protected] or through this forum. Together we will resolve this issue.

Best regards,
Eric Clapp
Jet Central Micro Turbines
Lifetime Warranty

RE: Flameout problem
 

I will never understand why my fellow jet guys install filters in their airplanes. My fuel gets filtered going into my five gallon fueler. There is a filtered clunk in my fueler, and there is an automotive filter going from my fueler to my airplane. Once on board, there is another automotive filter inside my UAT.

From there, the only thing that can go down my lines into my turbine is pump parts, rotted fuel line parts (assuming my fuel lines will someday not last forever), or solenoid parts.

Considering how unlikely it is that one of those sources could end up in my turbine, I have never installed an onboard filter. Figuring anything remaining was small enough that ingestion in the turbine was no big deal.

This by the way, is a far more acceptable place to burn trash rather than the possibility of having a 5.00 filter onboard cause me a bubble flameout or a debris flameout and losing my investment altogether.

But that's just my humble opinion.

RE: Flameout problem
 

Sean, we install filters in our systems so it can stop any debry that may come from the fuel pump in to the selenoid, simple.

Happy flying.

RE: Flameout problem
 

How many reported cases of that?

RE: Flameout problem
 

What would be the best filter to use onboard that would be the LEAST likely to hold a bubble?
Any complaints about the Festo in-line filters?

RE: Flameout problem
 

I have a festos fuel filter insalled in a Euro with a Rhino.I have no issues yet,but only about 3 flights.One thing I do like about it is that it is clear and you can see debris or air bubbles.

RE: Flameout problem
 

try another UAT, go out and re-test. We have had a bad UAT that actually got transferred from one plane to another and brought along all the same problems. When the UAT was replaced, everything went back to normal.
If that doesnt work, pull out that engine and install a JetCat:D

RE: Flameout problem
 

Sean.
None because it stoped it before it became an isue, by the way I have used the Dubro red filters for years in my Roo and Viperjet to this date I have never experience a flame out because of bubbles in my system, I have also and I'm currentely using the Jetcat filters with the same excellent results.

Happy flying

RE: Flameout problem
 

I am with sean on this one. My fuel is filtered 4 times before it gets to the airplane. If you follow cars II then why not just have 10 filters from your fuel pump to the turbine incase your filter comes apart then the other 9 will catch it right? Not trying to be a @#ck.

RE: Flameout problem
 

My fuel is filtered 4 times including the UAT before reaching the turbine. I too don't have a filter anywhere between tanks and engine.
I think it is even specified in my turbine user's manual (Wren). I never had any problem with this setup. Most jet heads at our field do the same.
Once a year I would take the tanks apart to clean the inside up... just in case,... but I never found anything.

RE: Flameout problem
 

I have to agree as well, no filters for me. Tried it once and had two flame outs in a row, pulled the filter out and no more trouble.

John

RE: Flameout problem
 

Thanks for the responses guys - I'm off to the field now.

I think the best strategy is to try one thing at a time. I will take the filter out and see how that effects things and have taken the filter from my Jetcat with me to try.

I will also change the turbine battery if that doesn't work and will eventually change the UAT if all else fails. I was assuming any fault was happening downstream of the UAT but will start looking further up if the problem persists.

There has been no smoke with these flameouts - I've always had guys with me when these have happened and no one has noticed anything.

Thanks for all the speedy responses.

RE: Flameout problem
 

Actually, my experience is the exact opposite of what Eric says, I'm not sure why.

If you get an air bubble, it usually puts the fire out, but the ECU takes a couple of seconds to sense it via the thermocouple and so more fuel goes into the engine on the back side of the bubble - making a smoke trail...

If the ECU commands a shutdown, the fuel solenoid goes shut right away - no smoke trail...

Bob

RE: Flameout problem
 

Bob,
You are right, I noticed Eric's mistake too. Tiping issue I guess...

RE: Flameout problem
 

You guys must be better pilots then me, when my engine quits while I'm flying the following is NOT what takes place:

Sean: Gee, engine shut down, [sm=72_72.gif] See any smoke trail?
Spotter: Um, that's a negative, see if you can bring it around before you touch down, maybe waggle the wings a little.

It's more like:
Sean: LANDING!! (Ass clenches to a micron) [sm=drowning.gif]
Spotter: Dude, your engine quit. [sm=what_smile.gif] Did you do that? Or was it the plane?

RE: Flameout problem
 

Bob is right if it's an air bubble causing the flame out you will get a brief smoke trail. No smoke means that your pump shut off. Check all of your electrical connections and solder joints. Run it on the ground and wiggle or tug on the wires. Concentrate on the ECU battery, power wires to the ECU, pump wires, and fuel solenoid wires.

Good luck,
Joe

RE: Flameout problem
 

Sean,
I's more like if it happens when you fly a little high or a little far,
the first thing you see is the trail of smoke before you notice your engine turned quiet.
Of course, when flying close by, you'd hear it first.

RE: Flameout problem
 

Guys

I had exactly the same symptons with my Wren 44, when I rolled inverted the motor would cut after a few seconds. Believe it or not the cause was the rpm sensor magnet had become demagnetised and in the inverted position the difference in the earths magnetic field was enough to cause a spurious rpm reading and shutdown. The fix was to remagnetise the sensor by taking a strong magnet and moving it in a certain pattern at the front of the turbine. I felt like a bit like Merlin the magician doing this but it worked and I have not had the problem since!

Of course if the Falcon does not have a magnetic sensor this is not the problem and I aplologise for wasting your time!:)

John

RE: Flameout problem
 

Birdman

Question; Are you still inverted when the motor flames? In the original post it states the flame out occurs performing the same manuver in the same place. I would be looking into the pump or the vent system. When inverted and in a high G turn the weight of the fuel changes making the pumping dynamics change. It is possable the fuel pump is marginal and these changes affect the pumps ability to keep up with the fuel demands. Another possabilty is the vent system with the plane inverted affecting the tank pressure and also leading to pumping issues.

Jerry

RE: Flameout problem
 

in regards to the onboard filters...........like some of the others here, i filter my fuel before going into the fuel container, it has a filtered clunk, it has an automotive filter between the clunk and the pump and it also has a Dubro filter after the pump, i do not draw fuel back out of the plane with this setup so I've eliminated any possibility of debris getting in the fuel system.........................i also use the JetCat filter onboard between the pump and solenoid. i download the ECU to my laptop after every run and i keep track of the maximum fuel pump voltage and when it creeps up to 0.2 volts higher then average i clean the filter and it brings the voltage back to normal values, as the fuel pump brakes in and wears the onboard filter keeps all those fine particles out of the solenoid and the engine.

RE: Flameout problem
 

hmmmmmmm

...where is your final vent looking out from the fuselage? forward? aft? down?

RE: Flameout problem
 

Don't totally disregard the possibility of PCM lockout that will also kill the turbine. There might be an antenna issue. Just needed to throw a spanner in the works!:D:D

RE: Flameout problem
 

I second that!!!![X(]:D

RE: Flameout problem
 

You forgot:

Sean: LANDING!! ( shorts vacuum into the now active worm hole)
Spotter: Dude, is that normal??? ... Stop #$cking around.

:D

Luis

RE: Flameout problem
 

haha, happy turkey day bud!

RE: Flameout problem
 

Sean, you're funny man but I still like mine filtered specially the cold ones :D :D.

RE: Flameout problem
 

Yes, I guest that I'm a filtermaniac :eek: [sm=spinnyeyes.gif][sm=confused_smile.gif], I too filter my fuel at the pick up line, after the pump with a car filter, UAT and after the pump so that's 4 times ( the Roo had a 5th filter by the engine :) ) can't help it.

RE: Flameout problem
 

Use the 6 mm Festo filter and you do not have to worry about bubbles. It will always have an air bubble in it, but I can NEVER get it to come out under ANY conditions. Orientation is completly not important. It just works and works well.

RE: Flameout problem
 

Just wanted to say that I haven't totally cured the problem yet but that's because I haven't had any time to look at it today. Jet Central have been in email contact and offered lots of support and solutions. I still suspect the problem may be a battery problem but I need some time to get back to the field and do more testing - I remember the good old days of having a back garden in the UK to do that, now I live in a shoe box in Manhatten with no outside to test in!

RE: Flameout problem
 

Thank you for the up date, please keep us posted as we wander :eek: if we have nail the problem right on the head.

RE: Flameout problem
 

Some good news and bad news!

The good news is I went to the field and after some changes ran the turbine with no problems. I tried some things out in stages - after initially posting I went to the field, removed the filter and did some more running. The problem had got worse and I had flameouts on the ground. I then took it home replaced the battery for the turbine, re soldered various power supply connections and made sure all plumbing and wiring was totally secure. Went to the field today and it ran great but only had one flight.

Unfortunately during this flight I had an undercarriage problem. For those of you who don't know the Bandit ARF, there is a door that comes up to cover the nose leg after retraction. The door was staying open after the gear was up. I tried a couple of manoeuvres to encourage it shut but it wouldn't go, so I tried to cycle the U/C. It partially dropped 1 leg and wouldn't do anymore.

I fly at Floyd Bennet field in NY with nothing but concrete so basically had to land with 1 leg slightly down on the hard stuff. Lukily damage is very minor, with scratching to the underside of the fus and horizontal stabs and nothing more. Wings are untouched. Managed to take the speed right off and get the flaps back up just as it touched down so they were not damaged.
After testing on the ground it looks like when the nose door did not close the ram was trying to pull it shut and leaking air. The system had good pressure before takeoff which had been checked on the gauge.