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CARF Flash Flap issues
Hi guys,
Dantley and I have had some interesting teething issues with his new flash. We are both at our wits end. Flight #1: With full flaps (more than 45 degrees) deployed, really bad Pilot Induced Oscillations.(PIO) Landed with take off flaps but a floater though Flight #2: Added crow (1/4 inch) with full flaps, PIO disappeared Flight #3 and 4, absolutely flawless. Added smoke tank and smoke pump, kept CG @ 365. Flight # 5 Smoke system has air leak and doesn't work. Deploy full flaps/crow and the plane is now pitching down, elevator slightly more sensitive, and is exhibiting PIO's again, not as bad as before but definetely there. We blame it on the full smoke tanks that are, barely, behind the CG. (But why is the nose pitching down if it is tail heavy?) Flight #6 Smoke system working, burn through smoke Deploy full flaps/crow still PIO'ing. [:@] Flaps are still over 45 degrees with crow. CG @365 HERE'S THE KICKER: My flash is setup EXACTLY like Dantley's and it locks into the landing pattern. My flash has never exhibited PIO's and I land with 90 Degree flaps and 1/4 crow, cg @ 365?? How much flap are you guys running? Is anyone else, other than myself, using crow? Raf |
RE: CARF Flash Flap issues
Raf,
Have you landed it to compare to yours or is he doing the landing? |
RE: CARF Flash Flap issues
ORIGINAL: ravill Hi guys, Dantley and I have had some interesting teething issues with his new flash. We are both at our wits end. Flight #1: With full flaps (more than 45 degrees) deployed, really bad Pilot Induced Oscillations.(PIO) Landed with take off flaps but a floater though Flight #2: Added crow (1/4 inch) with full flaps, PIO disappeared Flight #3 and 4, absolutely flawless. Added smoke tank and smoke pump, kept CG @ 365. Flight # 5 Smoke system has air leak and doesn't work. Deploy full flaps/crow and the plane is now pitching down, elevator slightly more sensitive, and is exhibiting PIO's again, not as bad as before but definetely there. We blame it on the full smoke tanks that are, barely, behind the CG. (But why is the nose pitching down if it is tail heavy?) Flight #6 Smoke system working, burn through smoke Deploy full flaps/crow still PIO'ing. [:@] Flaps are still over 45 degrees with crow. CG @365 HERE'S THE KICKER: My flash is setup EXACTLY like Dantley's and it locks into the landing pattern. My flash has never exhibited PIO's and I land with 90 Degree flaps and 1/4 crow, cg @ 365?? How much flap are you guys running? Is anyone else, other than myself, using crow? Raf Maybe give Rush or me the stick next time on the landing.:D Sorry to see you and Dantley busting your butt yesterday. |
RE: CARF Flash Flap issues
Raf, just from personal experience; I have found the CG to be VERY sensitive on the Flash to the point that the slightest bit off (rearward) would change the landing habits of the aircraft. When I say "slightest", I'm talking mm's; I know it shouldn't make a big difference, but it did for me. I tend to like a fairly equal balance on my aircraft with the slightest amount of nose drop, on the Flash I couldn't do it, although the plane flew absolutely beautiful when set-up this way (one of the nicest I have ever flown), landings were terrible. A nose heavy-Flash is a happy Flash I have found.
I can't comment on the crow, never did it on the Flash. Double check your CG and maybe even had a little weight in the nose and see how the plane behaves. I hope you get it figured out and let us know what you find. Again, this is MY experience. George |
RE: CARF Flash Flap issues
I second George's opinion - slightly nose heavy is good. An aft CG with too much flap deployment can be a disaster. Its pitch sensitive to begin with and then the large flap deflection blanks the stab and it becomes a real handful...
Bob |
RE: CARF Flash Flap issues
Raf:
As far as I remember, based on the input from other Flash owners, it seems the manual suggested throw for full flaps is too much, I set mine at around 35 mm and plane has flown perfectly since the maiden. On the maiden flight, Plane felt as if I had been flying it for a long time, no picth change on flap deployment, is very slow on landing. Do a search, there's a thread about the Flash which has all the details... |
RE: CARF Flash Flap issues
Both Raf and I attempted the landings. I set up for approach and the plane started pitching up and down. I aborted after 2 attempts and gave the sticks to Raf since he is the Jedi of Flash landings ;). Of course he thought the PIO was just me being a n00b turbine pilot, but it happened to him as well. [:@]
I suspect CG and too much flap; however, the only difference between the plane landing like a sweet heart and being a stupid B*(&# was the the smoke system. We were pretty careful to keep CG the same, so that is why we are slow to claim that this is a CG issue. Back to square one. Balance the plane at the forward CG position and reduce landing flaps. Tam - Did you fly? I only saw Russ with the tx. :D |
RE: CARF Flash Flap issues
We were pretty careful to keep CG the same, so that is why we are slow to claim that this is a CG issue. |
RE: CARF Flash Flap issues
I have over 50 flights on my Flash.Landing flap is 50 mm and CG is 360-364mm and no pitching or any bad habits.
Jetcat P-120 for power with three fuel tanks.Takeoff don´t require any flap...When the speed is good the plane takeoff. |
RE: CARF Flash Flap issues
My first landings on the Flash were a little pitchy. I moved the cg to 360mm and all was great, I stayed with recommended flaps.
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RE: CARF Flash Flap issues
ORIGINAL: dubd Both Raf and I attempted the landings. I set up for approach and the plane started pitching up and down. I aborted after 2 attempts and gave the sticks to Raf since he is the Jedi of Flash landings ;). Of course he thought the PIO was just me being a n00b turbine pilot, but it happened to him as well. [:@] I suspect CG and too much flap; however, the only difference between the plane landing like a sweet heart and being a stupid B*(&# was the the smoke system. We were pretty careful to keep CG the same, so that is why we are slow to claim that this is a CG issue. Back to square one. Balance the plane at the forward CG position and reduce landing flaps. Tam - Did you fly? I only saw Russ with the tx. :D You guys too busy working and we slip by you with 5 flights in an hour.:D Of course you did see my last flight. That is O.K. I'll be out there tonight. Are you, Arnaud and Raffi coming out to play? |
RE: CARF Flash Flap issues
I'll be there. Need to recover from the Bandit flying through the tree... I'll bring the A4 and the Extra
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RE: CARF Flash Flap issues
ORIGINAL: siclick33 We were pretty careful to keep CG the same, so that is why we are slow to claim that this is a CG issue. Tam, ACW - I'll be in Napa with the wifey today and tomorrow, so I'm not flying this weekend. |
RE: CARF Flash Flap issues
That could be your problem, smoke tank needs to be AT the CG or forward of it, when you balance, somke tank as well as all fuel tanks have to be empty, only UAT needs to be full...
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RE: CARF Flash Flap issues
ORIGINAL: dubd ORIGINAL: siclick33 We were pretty careful to keep CG the same, so that is why we are slow to claim that this is a CG issue. Tam, ACW - I'll be in Napa with the wifey today and tomorrow, so I'm not flying this weekend. Enjoy at Napa and don't drink too much those red wine.:D |
RE: CARF Flash Flap issues
Wish I could have made it. Bad news with the turbine Spark today. I checked CG w/UAT full. I was curious to see how much CG would change with tank full. 5mm forward. Not too bad. I set the fuse back down on my stand and I didn't realize the vent set down on the foam. Started to empty the tank and noticed it slow down reached for the off switch and bang! The tank imploded and put Kero all over the plane and floor![&o] Maiden is postponed for now.:( I will call Comp Arf Mon. A.M.
Todd |
RE: CARF Flash Flap issues
ORIGINAL: Ruizmilton That could be your problem, smoke tank needs to be AT the CG or forward of it, when you balance, somke tank as well as all fuel tanks have to be empty, only UAT needs to be full... Todd - a little kero in the plane won't hurt a thing. :) |
RE: CARF Flash Flap issues
Thanx for all the input guys. [sm=thumbup.gif] I was on vacation so I wasn't checking the threads.
I think that there is a problem with the flap setup in the flash. Too much and the elevator becomes to sensitive causing the ugly PIO. EVERY one at LA jets was commenting on how much flap (almost 90 degrees) I was able to add to my flash. The difference is that I've got crow. My flash LOCKS into the landing pattern at the take off setting (15 degrees) as well. We put some flights on the both the flashes back to back and found that take off flaps calmed Dantley's flash down. My flash is just fine with my VERY different setup so we'll just have to live with the different setup flashes! :D Raf |
RE: CARF Flash Flap issues
Hey Raf....
I studied your setup pretty close at LA Jets and decided to experiment with my Flash too. I have less main flaps than you, but wasn't happy with the stability in pitch on final. This week I tried 3/16" and 1/4" crow on the ailerons like you have, and the difference was dramatic. I'm a little nose heavy, real close to 370mm, and have a little less than the recommended full flap settings, and man does that thing lock in with a nice nose high approach and pitch is very stable and it's much easier to set your rate of descent. Thanks for the idea, and I'd recommend some crow to all of the Flash owners out there! KennyMac |
RE: CARF Flash Flap issues
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Kenny,
I'm glad you liked the crow as well. I thought it made the flash act more "well behaved" on final with crow mixed in. Here's some pics of the Nor Cal Flashes!! :D Raf |
RE: CARF Flash Flap issues
1/4" crow, hmmm. I think I'll try it along with a little nose weight. About 1/4 of my landings are picture perfect, most are good, but about 1/5 are terrible. I want to use more flap to keep from floating after dropping down from trees at one end of our runway. The trees aren't too high but I definitely want to make sure I've cleared them and end up wasting a third to half of our 650" runway.
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RE: CARF Flash Flap issues
When you try the crow, stick with the flap setting you have to start with...The crow will cause you to increase the angle of attack for the whole wing in order to get the same amount of lift. This increase in AOA will also increase the total drag, so you'll slow down a bit faster. The crow will also act as wash-out and help to prevent tip stalls. Once you're comfortable, try increasing the flaps a little at a time, but I'm pretty happy with what I ended up with, which is a little less than what the book calls for.
KMac |
RE: CARF Flash Flap issues
Hi Raf, are you using the full ducting on this jet? are you using the stock pipe ? can you post a picture of your turbine install?
Thank you Misha |
RE: CARF Flash Flap issues
No ducting WHAT SO EVER.
Check out the big Flash thread. Raf |
RE: CARF Flash Flap issues
ORIGINAL: ravill No ducting WHAT SO EVER. Check out the big Flash thread. Raf |
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