correct procedure
 

What is the correct procedure when a turbine does not start? I was starting my P-80 for the third flight and it woud not start. Check everything and all settings were fine. Tried a few times, but did not stop for more than a few minutes between attempts. When it finally did start you can imagine the amout of kero that was pupmed into it. It was a fire ball. Luckely only minor damage was done to the airframe. The turbine ran just fine after that, but I could not fly as my brake lines were melted.

So what should I have done after the first no start?

Thanks
Scott

RE: correct procedure
 

Need more info........ did it light on propane and then not transition to kero or you weren't even getting the propane "pop"? It sounds like maybe you weren't getting a light on propane and then there was either an increase in propane pressure (shake the can? can not upright?) or there was residual propane hanging around the motor/pipe area and then you got a light.....? (were you starting ***** into the wind?)

If in doubt about unburnt kero in the combustion chamber you can always tip nose down to ground and then tail to ground, run starter, etc.... You could also initiate the start with the manual valve closed and then slowly open it up.

RE: correct procedure
 

Couple of questions ....

Did you hear the gas ignite? If not, check the glow plug first. Make sure the elements are pulled out far enough, and that it is glowing fully when you use the test feature on the ECU. McCoy 9 plugs are OK, but I have the best luck with the Rossi 8's that Bob Wilcox sells. If the glow plug is fine, then check the gas. Disconnect the fitting at the engine and make sure you are getting gas during the start up cycle.

As Smitty pointed out, make sure you have the jet pointing into the wind when you try to start it.

If the engine never ignited, I suspect you didn't have kero in the engine, since I believe the fuel pump doesn't start until the ECU sees the temp rise in the engine, signifying the gas is burning. I suspect you have a glow plug problem and had unburned gas in the engine, particularly if the fire went out quickly.

If the gas ignited and the engine began to spin up and then quit, what was the message on the ECU?

If you ever suspect kero in the engine, I have always been told to tip the plane forward. If you suspect a gas build up, get out the blower.

RE: correct procedure
 

Scott, is this a kero-start or propane? With propane, there should be no "pumping" of kero until ignition occurs and the temp gets high enough to sustain kero burn. Obviously on Kero-start, you will be pumping kero during start and if it does not light, further attempts will only pump more. From your description, it sounds like you have a kero-start, but you did not say.

More info is needed. Propane or Kero? How many runs (hours etc.)? Any previous issues? Did something happen between the last successful start/flight and this incident? And anything else you can think of....(too much info. is better than not enough).


George

RE: correct procedure
 

Sorry, It is Kero Start and it has about 11 hours on it. The message on the ECU was and I am quoting from memory right now, but it was ignition sequence time to long or something very close. I will look in the manual and find the exact verbiage.

No issues between flights and no issues since I have had it. One thing it does do is on every start a very small amount of flame does happen. I have been in contact with JetCat and modified the uacclr setting 2 to the lowest setting it has. It still happens and I was told that is only a small amount of kero that is pumped in during ignition and that flame is okay. What I had yesterday was a true wet start and man did it scare the hell out of me. the battery pack I use is the Duralite lithium-ion that they built for kero starts and it was at 7.9 volts which should have given me one last flight and then needed charging. I am wondering if there was not enough charge in the battery and that is why ignition did not happen.


Thanks
Scott

RE: correct procedure
 

Scott,

No experience with kero start. Sorry I couldn't help. I'm sure the Jetcat dudes will take care of you. I know what you mean about it scaring the hell of you though. I have had at least one of those moments with every turbine I have owned! Especially in the RAM days!!! Wow!!

Smitty

RE: correct procedure
 

Thanks Scott, I thought it sounded like Kero-start. I think you may have figured out the problem yourself; marginal battery. You said "it was at 7.9 volts which should have given me one last flight and then needed charging". You just never know EXACTLY how much battery you have left with different variables always involved; and yes, experience does help, especially with 11 hours of operation, but time does take its toll and the battery may not be performing as it did earlier. Unfortunately, if you are using a Duralte charger, you don't know the mAH you are using or putting back into the battery to have some sort of indication how the battery is performing or when the battery statrs to show signs of degraded performance.

In regards what to do after the first non-start; a second attempt can be done, but if it doesn't lite then, I would not attempt anymore starts until the cause can be determined. The battery would always be the first place to look.

Charge your turbine pack and see if you get a good start on the first attempt. This should get you going in the right direction.

Sorry to hear about the damage and good luck.

George

RE: correct procedure
 

Thanks! That is what I thought. I will have it back in the air in no time. I need to pull he turbine to get to the brake lines, but that will only take an hour or so.

Again, Thanks!
Scott

RE: correct procedure
 

At Liberty bell jet rally, we had a problem with a turbine, and after a few non starts, Mr Wilcox was there to help, told us to hold up the turbine to drain it. but also mentioned to hold it up in both directions.

the end caps tend to hold extra kero on non starts. ....

so drain it out the back of the turbine and also drain it out of the front of the turbine.

I could not believe how much kero came out the front when we held it upside down. would have made for a very big hot start.....



Mark

RE: correct procedure
 

How old is the fuel pump?

RE: correct procedure
 

see: http://www.jetcatusa.com/bulletins.html

RE: correct procedure
 

kero start= pain in the butt starts.

The correct procedure is to change back to the awsome Jetcat propane start up sequence. Tried, true and taken to the bank.;)[sm=thumbs_up.gif]

I've never had a hot start except when I had kero starts.

Raf

RE: correct procedure
 

Scott,
I second all that George said. I am not sure if you have a duralite Voltmeter to put load on the battery and see where your voltage was. based on my experience, Kero igniter must get red hot for ignition to occur. If you are marginal, with the starter motor kicking on, your voltage can drop in the low 6V region and wont give enough juice for kero plug.

I strongly recommend clearing the turbine before any failed start attempt. If you notice your starter fuel solenoid will cycle for app 10-12 second constantly for ingintion to happen. if it doesnt ignite, you have a nice pool of kero in the chamber. I usually turn in nose down it will drip from edge of intake.

love my kero start on both P70 and Titan SE. (dont hold it against me RAF:D)

Jason (S)

RE: correct procedure
 

At the next jet meet,

Meet me at the bike racks, 3 o'clock. Don't be late.

Raf

RE: correct procedure
 

You 2 gonna make out behind the bike racks ?

Hope Paul doesn't get any video of that…. [:@]

RE: correct procedure
 

Oh yeah.. and I ll make sure I have good insurance..:D you get yourself one too..lol (malpractice off course) :D

Gordon,
No need for video... Raff s going to show me his new GREEN Quad that runs on Nitrous Oxide.thats where he parks it [:'(]


JJJETPLANE AKA JASON (S) smiles AKA HOVERLOVER

RE: correct procedure
 

:D:D:D

RE: correct procedure
 

Spounds like a marginal battery voltage issue. 7.9 volts isnt 7.9 volts when under a load. Plus you stated it was the 3rd flight, and the 2 previous flights went fine.