Has this ever happened to anyone?
 

In the last 2 months I have logged 14 turbine flights including my turbine maiden. 12 have been on my F-16 and 2 on my Rafale.

I think it is safe to say that my landings are becoming progressively worse. My last 3 or 4 have been pretty buggie, Not so much hard, I can manage to get it together before its to late and have not broken anything but really struggling to find a good sink/nose attitude and throttle setting. Ive been landing long, fast and basically fighting to make the best of a botched approach. I manage to pull it off but I dont know what happened to the nice smooth (at least I think so) approaches and fairly light touchdowns.

Have any of you guys been through this? Where you kind of just see what you need to do and make it happen in the beginning, Then as time goes on you start thinking to much? Second guessing yourself?

Im interested to see if anyone has experienced this.

Thanks! Pete

RE: Has this ever happened to anyone?
 

In my experience, a bad landing usually starts with a bad approach. You have to start thinking about the landing as the entire set of events that have to occur in a sequence, on the turn into the pattern, the downwind, turn to final, etc. The closer you get to touchdown the fewer adjustments you can make to fix things that are wrong.

Also, not enough people go around. If you have the fuel and things aren't right, aggressively make the decision to go around and then stick with the decision.

RE: Has this ever happened to anyone?
 

Pete,

Flying jets is all about the landing. Lots of guys can make them do stuff in the air, but if you really want to see how experienced a guy is, watch the last 30 seconds of his flight.

Its not unusual to struggle with landings and most guys do at one time or the other and it can come and go (does with me anyway). When the wheels start to come off (literally as well as figuratively :D ), try going back to the basics.

Make *sure* that your approach is a good one - trying to salvage a good landing from a bad approach is a bad idea and usually results in bad things.

Never "settle" for a bad landing, if the lineup is bad, the airspeed is bad, or the sink rate is bad, either get on the sticks and *fix it,* or go around.

Never get into "spectator mode" where you're just watching the plane as it starts to do something that you don't like. In the vast majority of my bad landings, after its over, I always say to myself, "I saw that didn't look right, why the heck didn't I correct for it?!?" As a kid, I used to ride in the front of my dad's Stearman biplane all the time. It could ground loop or nose over on you if you didn't stick with it. On landing, he'd always be stirring the stick and rudder pedals like mad and I think that was his way of trying to stay ahead of the airplane and make it go where he wanted instead of simply "reacting" to where it was going. For me that means I'm always trying to put in little corrections - rarely is everything perfect, so if I'm constantly trying to fix something, then I'm always active and ready to try and correct things when they get bad.

I would try and dedicate some flying time to working on the landings. Take off and fly for like 1/3 of the available time, and then start doing approaches. Shoot approaches for another 1/3 of the time and concentrate on getting the lineup, airspeed, and decent rate where they should be. If one of the approaches looks good, take it, and then if you're *sure* you have plenty of time left, take off and do it again. The only sure cure I've come across is practice...

Bob

RE: Has this ever happened to anyone?
 

This has got me thinking. I understand the importance of a good approach as a precursor to a good landing.

I try to keep the F-16 in close, The further out I go, the longer a period of time I have looking at the "razor wing" on the way back in. I think Im comfortable with about 1 maybe 2 seconds of "RW" time right now. A bit longer if the winds are calm. Maybe this has some importance in my approach? Maybe I'm choking my final?

To anyone flying an 1/8 or smaller 16, How do you deal with the few seconds that you are staring at that white or grey dot before the wing reappears? I think I may need an ordinance package.....Seriously.

Pete

RE: Has this ever happened to anyone?
 

Sounds to me you need to practise slow flight with your jets. Stop flying around fast and take a couple of flights to REALLY learn the slow flight capabilities of the aircraft, starting up high and progressively get closer to the ground. You need to learn to pull the nose up and control descent rate with throttle. When you are nose high on final, you will have no problem seeing the airplane.

Jeremy

RE: Has this ever happened to anyone?
 

Why don't you try what I did.

Get a mate to video a few flights, you can analyse afterwards.

I often used to look through my vids in the early days, it's amazing how much you can learn when you can actually see what was going on from a sort of third party view!

Gary.

RE: Has this ever happened to anyone?
 

I second that.
Steve

RE: Has this ever happened to anyone?
 

the problem is you're just starting with jets and on those first few flights you were giving it 110% of your attention and thinking about every little stick movement, now you've got the feel of it a little and your slacking off on the concentration.

RE: Has this ever happened to anyone?
 

Hi Pete

It as happened to me specially when I pick my F16 1/8 scale.

Is yours the 1/8 scale? Did it happened with that plane?

Nuno

RE: Has this ever happened to anyone?
 

Yes that was the plane.

RE: Has this ever happened to anyone?
 

Exactly!

RE: Has this ever happened to anyone?
 

That could very well be the case, I also thought of that. But yet, I know this is not the time to get confident, Not even close. Maybe its involuntary?

RE: Has this ever happened to anyone?
 

This is the best advice. Never think you have to put it down on the first approach. For someone with only 14 flights your above average in terms of your landings. It's good to be hard on yourself though...keeps you sharp. Every landing is slightly different anyhow, it just takes time to read each one and make the appropriate corrections on the way down.

Chris

RE: Has this ever happened to anyone?
 

Hey Pete:

I am rewriting what Enrique Broens teached me by mail prior to my first F-16 maiden on February 9, 2008, the same model I lost on August 10 2.008 after 22 flights. And it really works:

Reduce power to 50% and wait a few seconds to lower flapperons to 20°. This is preferable to be done while in a turn. Gear down and do at least one fly by over the runway to see if the gear are correctly down and be familiar with the low speed. Throttle should be now 50-70%. The model should be now in a nose up attitude. If not, apply elevator trim. Fly downwind reducing power to 1/3. Be careful because once yo go downwind at low speed, the jet will tend to lose altitude. Increase power if necesary, not elevator. Once on final, reduce power slowly until the jet start to lose altitude with nose up. Control the rate of descend with throttle, not with elevator. Of course with this method, you can't do short approachs. And don't worry about not seeing yor razor blade wings. If you are in the final turn, they will appear soon.:D

Try practicing many times until yo feel conficence with this procedure.

At least, you are lucky because you are always flying in long runways.

My runway is 500 ft. and is like an aircraft carrier. If you touch down before, you may lose your jet. And if you lose brakes, oh my god[:o]

RE: Has this ever happened to anyone?
 

Mastery, competence and maintanceof a tactile skill, IMHOis not a gently upward slope or steady flat line..... it is a jagged line of experience that hopefully never "trends" down.

I would say that what you are experiencing is totally normal and the more flights you get under your belt and the more people you fly with and watch, it all becomes part of your "style" The hardest thing is not letting bad habits creep in. There's nothing like a short, narrow field to keep you honest. But there is plenty of time for that later....... just focus on touching down near your feet at an appropriate attitude and speed and then you can take your show anywhere.

RE: Has this ever happened to anyone?
 

it all in the eyes!! if you can see it you can correct it...
Fly with your eyes, not your brain oryour hands....
Regards,

RE: Has this ever happened to anyone?
 

Hi Pete,

Was good to see you this past weekend.

An interesting thing happened to me during one of my landings with my Reaction. During the flight, a gentleman (who's name I'll not mention as it is not relevant) who is also flying a Reaction but having a devil of a time landing it, asked if I could verbalize what I was doing during my landing. I obliged and made one the best landings I've done on that plane in a while.

Try saying out loud, even if it is just to your spotter, what you are doing during the entire landing sequence from dropping the gear to rollout on the runway. It may help you concentrate a bit more on the landing itself.

...jim

RE: Has this ever happened to anyone?
 

Hey Jim, It was good to see you too!

I will try that, Next opportunity that I have!

Pete

RE: Has this ever happened to anyone?
 

The best advice I ever got on landing came from Tom Dodgen, he said "Don't upset the airplane in the pattern" In other words don't make any quick moves. such as pulling the power out too fast, jerking the nose up, or quick turns etc... The setup for every landing starts in the pattern, click the power off slowly, dump the flaps in the corners and you will never "upset" the airplane. Concentrate on trying to do everything smoothly. If you don't have a good setup don't try to force a bad landing. Go around.

DR

RE: Has this ever happened to anyone?
 

My 2nd to last flight of the 16 I had a slower then usual base and final turn. It scared me a bit as the plane was really slipping. I turned real tight and it was on its side and slow. I think I panicked during base and gave it a whack to full power, it came alive just as it got on final, I didn't know about my fuel so I felt it urgent to land. Anyway I ended up idling it in from 40-50 ft. landed pretty long too. I wont let that happen again [:'(].

Pete

RE: Has this ever happened to anyone?
 

Funny that I saw this thread,

I have been having a rough go with my F-16 as well.
The maiden was pretty uneventful but I bet I went around 5 times and when I did make it in I was 3 feet short of the threshold.
2nd flight flameout but got it down with a banged up nose gear.
3rd flight, gear came up and forced an airline into the heat shield. No gear when it came time so I had to ditch it in the grass. Hardly a scratch So lucky.

I don't know if my landings are bad or not but it definately has me concerned.
No way I'm gong to the Southwest Jet Rally if I can't bring it in nice and pretty. Repeatedly

RE: Has this ever happened to anyone?
 

Hi Pete

That's exactely what I thought. Eventhough the previous opinions are to be accounted, The major problem you are having is the same I have. I can't land the F16 1/8 scale in a steady way. Sometimes it goes well and others I have to rebuild the gear ply plates. Others it looks a bit like kangooros.

The main problem with this frame are the fuel tanks location. The fuel tanks are in the front of the CG, thus if you burn a lot of fuel you go down tal heavy, if you make short flights you go down nose heavy. Just after take of -nose heavy, before landing tail heavy.

Don't use flaps with the F16 - no need.

During the all flight I just can not trim the plane for the all flight because of this issue. It's even worse because I am using 3 tanks (one more between the midlle cover and cockpit (far forward the CG).

When I pick my F18, landings are way better, so fly the other plane and see that your skills are just fine. I will never get a fair behavior of this frame as it is, so I may consider to remove all the fuel tanks and install a big coke bottle in the CG area. I can do that because I am running a Merlin 90 in the tail of the airplane.

As fair as it gets....

Nuno

RE: Has this ever happened to anyone?
 

Hi Nuno.

I probably should have described my OP a bit different. It's not necessarily the landing I am having trouble with (lately) Its everything up until the 2 or 3 seconds before touchdown. As ugly as it gets sometimes I manage to make a decent touchdown, Firm at worst.

RE: Has this ever happened to anyone?
 

If after numerous flights, your landings are getting worse, it is likely that you are getting more comfortable flying at higher speeds. What you are probably not doing is realizing how slow your plane can fly. Before you set up for a landing, do a few circuits slow. get a feel for how slow the plane will fly and what power settings are required to maintain flight. This power setting is what you will use to fly your plane in on your approach. A lot of people rip around with a jet then when it comes time to land, they do not know how slow the plane flies. They either come in too hot or too slow and bounce the landing (or worse). So, take it up, slow it down, have fun flying it slow and get comfortable with it at slow sppeds.

RE: Has this ever happened to anyone?
 

Pete,

Funny you say that (as others have commented!) ...

I often make the best landing on a maiden flight, as observed above probably due to total focus. The it goes downhill for a while then seems to come back. My son spent some time as a CFI and CFII and his primary training students have the same pattern in full scale Cessnas and Pipers .. best landing during training are at/just after solo .. imagine that. Wonder if some of the military-trained guys had the same experience.

Given the description, I'd wonder about the GC location and elevator travel .. if we were talking heavy prop warbirds with the same story, I'd say too far back on the CG and/or too much elevator travel (which of course are related...).

Also, if you have many planes and switch back + forth, it takes longer to be "in the zone" with more than one plane at a time .. jets or otherwise.

I'll still learning too, about 2 yrs jet experience (after many many years of heavy warbird experience), and I sure know what you mean :-)

Dave