Chinese Jets
 

Ok, I felt the need to ask this question as a result of reading the FEJ 15 mishap thread which was recently posted, Particularly after reading a response from Jascat.

I have heard from some that Chinese jets require inspection and modification right out of the box, While others don't seem to think so. Apparently some stock Chinese jets fly hundreds of flights with no mods, While others fail after only a handful of rides. Im considering flight no. 3 on my FEJ rafale this coming weekend, This type of thing disturbs me but so does leaving it in the shop and taking my F-16 instead because my FEJ may fall apart in the air..

I know Im risking getting flamed here but Im going to take that chance. I have only heard of these types of catastrophic failures occuring with Fly Eagle Jets. I think once I read of a wing failure on a SM MB339, I could be mistaken.

I will try to summarize my uncertainties to a few questions. Should all Chinese jets be subject to a scrutinous eye right out of the box? Or just certain Manufacturers? When one mentions the issues inherent to Chinese models are they speaking of a particular brand? Why does FEJ keep coming up in threads like these? Why not Fei Bao, GJC, SkyMaster? Why?

I just finished my latest jet, Naturally, Im looking for my next winter project. Seeing that I can't realistically afford to fly BVM or equivilant, I am predominantly a customer of the Chinese companies and find this question equitable..

Thanks, Pete

RE: Chinese Jets
 

No matter who the kit manufacturer is, it is up to the builder to inspect and correct the airframe based on personal flying style and field of operation. This problem with FEJ is not new, I remember when SkyMaster was the subject of poor quality, and I experienced and witnessed flight control failures on more than one of their airframes. While I do feel the wing was not built well and the balsa grain surrounding the spar was incorrect, I also know that flying a jet from that field would add unnecessary and unexpected loads on the complete airframe in both the positive and negative g’s. In time the servos would have probably failed.

RE: Chinese Jets
 

I inspect every inch of any aircraft I will control whether its a BVM, SM or whatever.... I figured anyone flying jets would do that mainly for the sake of safety.

RE: Chinese Jets
 

If you buy cheap you have to be prepaired to give it a good look over and beef it up where it might be needed.

RE: Chinese Jets
 

Unfortunately we dont know how they are constructed "inside", glue joins, balsa vs. ply, cheap ply or what ever else. Some companies do a better job than others and some of the same companies kits are better that others. Unfortunately it makes us become "test pilots:. The only way it will ever get better is discuss it right here on the forums. When company X doesnt sell any kits because they come apart, the gear rips off on a normal landing or the linkages are crap then they will fix them. The only way we know a jet is "right" is to build it ourselves. Looks like this option is slowly going away as the kit manufacturers cant compete with the prices from Asia. The old addage.."Let the buyer beware" still holds true.

RE: Chinese Jets
 

http://www.northkites.co.uk/DeadHorse1.gif

RE: Chinese Jets
 

i can't speak for FB but GJC has taken aircraft from MFG X and did all the appropriate mods that have been found to be problem areas by the regular Joe's out there flying brand X to start with, Anton at SM does extensive testing himself putting things through their paces before rushing it to production, boomerangs are built in China but Alan and Ali have put the design through the ringer before it's brought to market, FEJ spends more time making excuses then doing R&D and push out 10+ jets in less then a year. my personal opinion of FEJ is they are pure junk and knowing such there's no way I'd ever fly one in the manner that the F-15 in that thread was flown and expect anything less then what the guy got, i was shocked at the comments and PMs i got asking how i could promote FEJ like that.........they'd be the last people I'd promote but i gotta call a spade a spade when i see one!

RE: Chinese Jets
 

How?

If there are other threads disscussing the reliability of chinese jet manufactures just point me to it.

I have done a good amount of research over the last year, I have indeed found plenty of build threads on all different types of jets/manufacturers, some on mods to different areas of the airplane, Gear etc.. Ive also found the arbitrary thread on a particular issue on found by many builders and posted but I have not found a general comparison between Chinese ARF quality, if there is one.

Also I am not as experienced as most of you and when I look at a jets structure I may miss things that would be considered unsafe.

RE: Chinese Jets
 

All you have to do is browse back or use the search button, the F15 recently, the F18 with tailpipe issues, the f16 that lost a wing, the couple where the leading edge of the wing blew open....

Unless you are gonna cut the skin off every surface to inspect what's inside, then you're ALWAYS gonna miss something.

RE: Chinese Jets
 

So your telling me that you should cut the wing open to inspect the internal structure with a new jet?

I did not know that and I don't have a problem with doing that I just wouldn't have thought it.

RE: Chinese Jets
 

I do not think this is anything new to the hobby. If people remember, Hot spots were talked about heavily when they were blowing the fuse apart in the air. Bottom line, you must check and maintain your airframe.

RE: Chinese Jets
 

Yes and No. I was trying to make the point that unless you scratch build it yourself, you are never going to know what the quality is like in the areas that you can't see until it ends up in pieces (if it was produced wrong). Mistakes can always happen, as these things are built by humans after all, wherever they are made.

RE: Chinese Jets
 

Scaleman,
How do you inspect the inside of a wing ?

RE: Chinese Jets
 

"I inspect every inch of any aircraft I will control whether its a BVM, SM or whatever.... I figured anyone flying jets would do that mainly for the sake of safety. " - Scale man

I would like to know how this is done. I am building a new Der Jet Models Cougar (made in Taiwan), just curious as to how to inspect "every inch". The fuse and formers, landing gear mounts all look great and glued in with hysol....Wings, verical stab and horizontal stab, I cant see.

RE: Chinese Jets
 

Do a structual test before flying it the first time.

Here`s a picture from germany.

RE: Chinese Jets
 

Mistakes CAN happen but the design, materials and QC go a long way in insuring success. Been in engineering to long to accept excuses for a poor product. I've also dealt with the Chinese for over 25 years on a lot of different products. Some are better than others and over time their products by and large have improved. However not all are made the same way etc.

So go with products that demonstrate their integrity more often than not and you'll be better off..

RE: Chinese Jets
 

SJN,
That makes sense . How do you determind how much weight to use, and do you load it both positive and negative ? Also, why all the weight on the fuse ?
Thanks,
Dale

RE: Chinese Jets
 

you cant inspect a wing or a stab how its build inside.[&o]

RE: Chinese Jets
 

Nice idea!

Need to bounce it up and down now, as it is often dynamic loads, not static loads, that cause the probs

RE: Chinese Jets
 

I have been flying for many years, and now turbine jets for 10 years. In that time I have flown many manufactures airplanes, and I have seen many failures from ALL manufactures.
Some of the ones I remember specifically from RCU over the years:

Multiple Hotspots where the fuse blew apart
Multiple Eurosports where the rear hatches blew off and the fuse came apart
A BVM Super Bandit where the wing spar failed
BVM Kingcat boom failures (1st generation, lead to carbon plates glued on the outside)
Skymaster wing delaminations
A Yellow Aircraft F18 twin wing failure
Boomerang explosions

etc etc etc..........

Looking at the above list, it is certainly not the chinese jets being singled out. Every manufacture has problems. While FEJ's seem to be having more than their share lately, they are also selling huge numbers of jets, AND!!!!!!!!!!
I think this is something very important to consider....

The average jet modeler has changed significantly. In the past when we HAD to build our jets, we knew we were solely responsible for the integrity of the airframe, when the first ARF's came out, we still checked everything. Today, many people are content to buy, assemble, and fly. The maintenance of past years has decreased and the complancency level of many modelers had increased.
I have seen models have wing failures because the wing bolts were not tightened before flying, the wing had an oscilation and that caused the spar to fail. I have seen models fail because surfaces were not checked prior to flight and servo mounts had broken loose.
There can be SO many causes for failures. I myself have gotten worse at checking everything over through the years because the airplanes have become so easy to use. I do take my winters to go through everything as complete as possible though.

The recent FEJ wing failure sucks, and it certainly looks like the wing could have been built stronger, but at the same time, I don't know of ANY manufacture that would replace an airplane in those circumstances. All the big name companies (great planes, horizon, etc) clearly state that their product is warranted from any defects or problems and will be replaced AS LONG AS the original part is returned in unused condition. I've lost 2 airplanes over the years due to airframe failures, both were Great Planes products, and Great Planes wouldn't even say sorry for your loss much less do anything about it....

I lost 2 expensive airplanes when I was flying pattern due to transmitter failures. The failures were ADMITTED by Futaba as being 100% their fault in the transmitter, my transmitters were replaced, and they did step up somewhat by giving me a better model radio, but it nowhere near covered the $3000 loss of aircraft.

Pete,
You could lose an airplane due to ANY number of reasons, thumbs, midair, birdstrike, radio failure, structural failure, engine flame out, etc, all you can do is check the airframe over as best that you can, and enjoy it. Your fly eagle Rafale could come apart, so could my BVM Kingcat, if they both came apart, guess which one would get the blame laid on manufacture, and which one would get the blame laid on the pilot. The circumstances could be identical for both failures, but nobody expects it from BVM. If you are worried about flying your FEJ model because of the crashes that are publicized on RCU, you will never enjoy it. So you could sell it, and buy a BVM product, but in the end, are you going to feel that much more comfortable with it and the extra dollars spent knowing what all the different variables that can cause the loss of an airplane potentially are?

I don't know, I am working on my Liberty, seeing threads like the F15 one do worry me, but I was also in the process of building my Super Bandit when the wing failed on one in Jersey 5 years ago, that had me worried as hell about my Bandit, in fact, I STILL think about that when I fly my Bandit today, thanks to the cost of the airplane and where the Canadian dollar was when I bought it, I have $16,000 Canadian tied up in that Bandit, I'll have under $5000 in my Liberty, guess which one I'll be less concerned about in flight?

All you can do is fly them, if you are worried about them all the time, you'll never have any fun and you might as well send me the Rafale back, I'll fly it for ya ;)

Jeremy

RE: Chinese Jets
 

Good lord heck yes you should go thru any plane, Even BV lost two 10k ub's by blowing apart, If they leave the ground anything can happen

RE: Chinese Jets
 

what happened to old fashion building where you know what you have

RE: Chinese Jets
 

It's getting harder and harder to find kits period, and when the KIT costs as much or more than an ARF, it makes it that much harder to want to build haha. I agree though, we take for granted that our ARF's will do what they're supposed to all the time.

RE: Chinese Jets
 

I know what you saying and Iam not bashing arfs but I would say probably 60% of people flying have never built anything and probably could not tell which way to run grain to get the strength where its needed

RE: Chinese Jets
 

To be honest I would bet that it's more than 60% these days that have never built a kit, mostly ARF assemblers these days, to bad really, building is half the fun!