Beware the "King"
 

I recently acquired a CJM F-4 kit from a guy in Texas. I must say that buyer beware does not even begin to explain this situation. I had several conversations with "King" Chancelor owner of King Custom Cycles during the several weeks it took to ship the plane to me after paying in full for the plane and the freight. Talking to him on the phone I felt I could trust him as he was respectful and seemed genuine. I paid $165 to ship the plane to me in Vancouver which I thought was a great deal. After shipping it I was advised by King that it only cost him $57 to ship, at that time I felt it was fine since I was getting what I had asked so if he saved a little $$ not worries. I called Forward air to get an eta for the jet, when they advised me that I would have to pick up in Seattle as they will not ship to me in Vancouver due to a problem with the account it was shipped on. I talked with King and explained that it was a 6-7 hour round trip and I would have to miss a day at work and spend the $$ in fuel etc, at which time he said we would work something out... Well that was the last time he returned my calls or emails. It has been over a week now and not a word back after trying multiple times to get hold of him. I proposed that he credit me $100 for the difference in shipping and I would have been happy. Pretty reasonable no???
Well after looking at the jet which just "needed a little paint" I will need to invest $100's of dollars and hours to make it safe to fly, yet another let down. I did get pictures and had many discussions but the plane is really not what it was represented to be. If anyone knows this guy please ask him to do the right thing and return my emails if he is too ashamed to talk to me in person..

Thanks

RE: Beware the
 

I saw this jet when Andy picked it up, he stopped by the shop so we could look at it. Andy had asked me to look at the ad when it was up (mysteriously it's completely gone from RCU now) and see what I thought.
I told him it looked rough, and needed some work which he already knew and agreed. What he received was far from needing just a "little work" or "paint".

I have seen some poorly built airplanes in the past, but almost nothing compares to how big a piece of crap this thing is. My 11 year old could have pieced something together better than this jet. The stab mechanism is horrible, you can literally move the tip of the stab up and down well over 1". There is silicone, epoxy, CA, and drywall screws holding things together inside, seriously, DRYWALL SCREWS!!!!!????

In the end, Andy will end up with a good airplane I suppose, but he'll have spent as much as buying a new kit, and probably more time to rebuild this one than building a new kit would have cost.

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Is this the same jet that had a you-tube video posted to show it off?

RE: Beware the
 

No there were just some pictures on RCU.

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No mystery as to why it's missing Jeremy.... the "Sold" adds disappear after 30 days. All hope is not lost though as I think this may be the one.
http://www.rcuniverse.com/market/item.cfm?itemid=624753

RE: Beware the
 

I had to check the date of this thread as I believe there was a thread some years ago warning about this same guy and how he ripped several people off...

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I also remember the name... and not in a good way.

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man, it was THAT F4.. I debated on purchasing it for a few days and ultimately decided not to. Looks great in the pictures.. they must be very dated according to the OP. sorry to hear about the loss, hopefully the guy man's up and makes good on the deal.

RE: Beware the
 

Yup that is the ad alright, it is also not a Mark II after sending pictures to CJM they confirmed it is 1st generation, and can be as old as 19 years. Just watch out for this guy .... Jeremy dug up a thread about him that I questioned him on and he had a believeble story and seemed genuine.

RE: Beware the
 

Maybe a little food for thought here. If I don't recognize the name as an active participant in the jet forums, I will most likely NOT purchase anything from them. Most of the active people on this forum have established their reputation (good or bad).

Good luck on getting this straight.

Chad

RE: Beware the
 

Thanks for the advice, I fell for the pictures and giving him the benefit of the doubt. He is now trying to sell another plane so don't get sucked in. I hope he steps up a bit but seeming as how he is ignoring me I doubt it.

http://www.rcuniverse.com/market/item.cfm?itemid=637350

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Solid advice.

B

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OK" my turn, I have never scamed anyone. the one post on me was from the guy from NY and he wanted to buy a tomcook f4 from me and have me paint it. I told him it would be a while because i build and paint custom bikes and was swamped and he said no problem. When he could'nt get in touch with me for a weak and a half he paniced and wrote in the forum and ive caught hell ever since when i made it more than right. Now as for this "First" I did'nt want to ship to canada in the first place it is aways a pain in the butt with customs and everyone always asking you to lie about the value you can't insure the thing for what it is worth. Then when i agreed to do it he said i could either see about sending it to Seattle Washington or Vancouver Canada though Foreward Air. Sooo i got the Quote on box size and built the box, but when i took it to them they came up with a outrageus price so i had to build another box and take 10in off the side. So thats $60 twice for wood and the 8 hours i killed building them. "the least amount i charge at the shot a hour is $95 so it ate 760 that day and the 57 they ended up chargeing me to send it . The way bill from Forward Air was to Vancouver but i got a call 2 days later saying they can not send over line without haveing an acount witch they held to mention so it went to Seattle Wa, Whitch he ended up thorwing a fit over even though he said it could be sent there in our email corospondence whitch i have all of. the pics where of the plane as i took it out of the shed and took them. i said the plane needed work and to call for more decription because i hate to type.... He knew he would have to be rebuilding it as he was told this. " and i have prof. in email if anyone cares to see" If you price out the scale gear, wheeles,servos,turbine pipe, and air valves that were in the plane he got the plane for about $200. If he wanted a perfect plane he should have spent the $4000 and got a skymaster....and now he got his wife in on it i bet hes catching hell. first he wanted me to pick up $100 dollars because he had it shipped from Seattle to Vancouver and now i guess his wife is on his butt so he wants a to send it back and me eat everything . ha ha now i was willing to eat the day i lost shipping it to sale it but now it will come in play and and as for slamming me on my add that slander and even before i could defend my self. there sure are a lot of you willing to jump on the ban wagon before you even have the hole story. or is the first on to post is the inosent one? For that matter ive caught hell on here because i dont fly with a club and have access to a couple houndred acres of sod farm and every time ive been around anyone flying jets and didnt have mine there they allmost all ways come off snobish and dont what to talk to you. when ive told anyone that if you come though North Texas and want to fly at a real nice place to call me. King C King Custommotorcycles.com o i wish the guy from LMG graphics would call me i would like to chat....

RE: Beware the
 

Looking from the outside in. If the plane truly needed "rebuilding" as you just said, you should of said that in the add, and not that it " just needs a little paint a going over". Just because you are to lazy to type on the computer doesn't give you the right to misrepresent the item, when even you said it "needs rebuilding" in your above post, but said the complete opposite of that in the add. Hell when i looked at your add, it basically looked like a well used jet that was a solid 10 at 20 feet... and by the going over, i took that as update the air system, double check glue joints, replace lines, etc etc.. not completely gutting the thing and replacing the entire structure in the plane. And going by what Jeremy and the OP (original poster) said, the airplane needs far MORE work than "just a little paint and going over". If you said that in a phone conversation to him, then you have 2 comments about the plane that are stating the exact opposite, of which one of them is in WRITING. Hell, he may of not remembered the comment about it "needing rebuilding" and just took your WRITTEN words as the truth (which are obviously false from what you just said and what the buyer received).

In regards to the shipping and crate.. their is no way you spent $60 on materials for a crate TWICE. You may of spent $60 on materials, found out you made it to big, then drove back and cut down the size of the crate to fit, but I Truly doubt you took $60 in materials and threw them away and went and spent another $60 to make the exact same thing 10" smaller.. If you honestly did, thats your fault not the buyer's, and you should of done your research on shipping prices compared to crate size before hand. And how did you lose $57 they charged you to ship it when the buyer said he paid $165 for shipping costs? Seems to me, you actually MADE money in that part. Even if you include $120 for the "supposed" materials for "2" crates, you only lost out $12. Hell if you build custom bikes, you probably have more scrap metal laying around worth that much.
IRE the "stop" at seattle instead of vancouver... again, you should of done your research, that is something that forward air employee's know at the place you originated the shipment from. I've used forward air multiple times shipping to canada and the guys are always on top of all the paperwork needed.

If you lost money, thats your problem. You made a deal with the guy to supply him with a purchased item as advertised as needing "a little paint a going over". If you took time out of your OH so busy work schedule to take care of all of this then again.. that is your problem not his.
Personally, if all he really wants is $100-200 to make this deal "right" then I think you should give it to him. your above post did nothing to help your case. IMO It makes you sound worse than how he had portrayed you (which it could of been alot worse).


There is no "slander"( SLANDER - A false defamation (expressed in spoken words, signs, or gestures) which injures the character or reputation of the person defamed; distinguished from libel.) if what is stated is the truth. And what i saw on "the add" is just fellow Rc'rs looking out for the rest of us, which going by your hundreds of acre's of sod farms comment, i understand why you dont understand...

RE: Beware the
 

When you buy something used/unseen/discounted over the internet you take a risk that was best summarized by John Ruskin back in the late 1800's.

"It's unwise to pay too much, but it's worse to pay too little. When you pay too much, you lose a little money — that is all. When you pay too little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do. The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot — it can't be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well to add something for the risk you run, and if you do that you will have enough to pay for something better."

IMO, Your lucky you've got Jeremy (who has a good reputation here) to vouch for the issues the plane has.
But, the price and pics alone indicated an airframe that needed work.
Look at the engine compartment layout and bracing & lack of exhaust nozzles in the pics.
What the Hello did you expect ? . . . . This ??? http://www.rcuniverse.com/market/item.cfm?itemId=637563
Even without the turbine and electrics this plane would have cost you 2 or 3 times what you paid.

I've spoken with King on the phone a couple times.
I was looking at a TopGun Mig-29 that he had for sale once.
I didn't buy it, but it wasn't because of King it was because TopGun designed the back end of it funny.
From what little I know he seems to be a big, gas, Edge & Extra type of guy.

However, How many of us that have been doing this for a while saw that ad and dismissed it as too low a price and a shoddy engine compartment ?
I don't know what the facts are and King may very well have to post up the emails to prove that the condition of the plane was discussed beyond the original ad.

What I do know is that the OP's 13th post ever to appear on RCU started this thread and his 14th started a "Let's praise CJM for doing their job" thread.
You know what, you called a company and asked questions about one of their products. Discontinued or otherwise, it was their JOB to answer.

Sorry for my rant but it amazes me what kind of crap passes for a thread sometimes.

RE: Beware the
 

Vettedriver,

I just sent you a P.M....


Danno

RE: Beware the
 

Look, whatever your conversations were with Andy I don't know, however, the jet as you sold it is completely unflyable. The Stab alone is a guaranteed crash waiting to happen. Looking at the pictures again and again, it looks far better in those pictures than it does in person. Even the engine bay area in the pictures, while looking rough, looks better in the pictures. There are formers in there that could simply be twisted and pulled out. There are drywall screws holding things together. The servo's that are in there aren't worth anything, they're old, have slop, and they're cheap servo's to start with.
Was Andy expecting a new jet, not even close, he was expecting to fully strip it and redo it, but that did not include having to replace formers that popped loose with no effort, it did not include having to replace stab mechanism's, and other hardware.

The bottom line is this....
YOU set the price on the jet. Whether or not you did or didn't want to ship is irrelevant, you decided that you WOULD ship the airplane. Making statements like "I didn't want to ship it in the first place" sound like you're trying to justify the issues. You didn't LOSE any money, you made a deal and agreed on a price. If you wanted more, you should have either said so, or decided not to sell it for that price period. Don't lay any blame on the cost of the crate, or money that you lost at your shop on Andy. You were paid what you asked, any time involved, time lost, whether you had to build the crate once or ten times, is your doing. As for the shipping, it makes no difference if he asked about shipping it to EITHER Seattle or Vancouver. He paid for shipping to Vancouver, not shipping to Seattle. He wasn't expecting to have to take a full day to drive down and pick up the airplane. To end up getting blindsided by finding out after the fact that the airplane was going to Seattle is crap. I'd be choked if I was him too at that point. The shipping cost ended up being far less sure, but he didn't get anything back from that, he lost out in fuel costs and time costs.
You lost nothing from what YOU said you wanted. You got paid for the airplane, and paid for the shipping, you got paid over $100 extra on the shipping in the end. Losing time or having to build the crate twice, again is not Andy's fault, you were paid what you asked.

In the end, even to take the shipping hassle's out of the equation, you sold a jet that was totally misrepresented in your ad on RCU. $1500 was on the HIGH side for what that airplane is, I'm sorry but in todays used market, for a jet that old, in that condition, it's way off. You set your own price, you described it, your pictures on RCU make it look at least airworthy.

About the only thing in the jet that looks good is the Pipe.

Anyway, it's just my opinion. I also edited my original post to take out the comment about your bikes, that was completely uncalled for, and totally unfair and I apologize for that.
I don't know for sure what your deal was with Andy, but I know he wouldn't have bought the airplane if he knew it wasn't even flightworthy, and I'm sorry, but this jet wouldn't have lasted through 2 circuits.
Just my opinion.......

RE: Beware the
 

There is no need for me to go on the defensive here, and I am not sure why you feel you need point out that I only have 14 posts, I guess it is a crime to be realtively new to jets and say a nice thing about a company that has taken the time to try to help me out.
Not sure where you are coming from but I can't believe that you feel the need to post a reply if you feel the thread is not worthy, if you feel in your grand opinion that it is not worthy then don't read it.
The facts here are simple, the jet was misrepresented as a mark II, the condition was not as explained and it was not delivered as agreed and paid for. I am not seeking compensation for the jet, I am accepting responsibility for trusting someone that maybe I should not have, I am seeking compensation for the freight transaction that was not completed as agreed to. I have tried time and again to get hold of King since recieving the plane to rectify, and he is simply ignoring my emails and calls.

RE: Beware the
 

There is no need for me to go on the defensive here, and I am not sure why you feel you need point out that I only have 14 posts, I guess it is a crime to be realtively new to jets and say a nice thing about a company that has taken the time to try to help me out.
Not sure where you are coming from but I can't believe that you feel the need to post a reply if you feel the thread is not worthy, if you feel in your grand opinion that it is not worthy then don't read it.
The facts here are simple, the jet was misrepresented as a mark II, the condition was not as explained and it was not delivered as agreed and paid for. I am not seeking compensation for the jet, I am accepting responsibility for trusting someone that maybe I should not have, I am seeking compensation for the freight transaction that was not completed as agreed to. I have tried time and again to get hold of King since recieving the plane to rectify, and he is simply ignoring my emails and calls. Give me a Fricken brake dude!!!!! This sounds like a bunch of crying to me...... and or buyers remorse!! We are all big boys here, and when you make a commitment to buy sonething used you stick with it and understand that nothing used and sold at a lower price is going to be perfect or in new fashion. I have many business dealings with King Chancellor for the the past 5 + years..... and everything I have bought and or even sold to him has been straight up and very good deals for both parties. He's a incredible talent and has done me BIG favors when he didn't have to just to make all deals go smoothly.

Stop cry'n like a little girl, Man up and stop talken smack about people for no real reason. If you don't like it, go out and buy brand new kits, ARF's and such while we big boys wheel and deal here on RCU ;)

-The Scale Master

RE: Beware the
 

In response to your post King:

Lets just stick with the facts.
1) We agreed on a price, I did not haggle I paid you the $1500 that you were asking for.
2) I asked for shipping to Vancouver you provided me a uote for $165 that I paid for in full
3) You represented the plane as a CJM Mark II that needed a "little going over"
4) It is not a Mark II It is the original that needs a total rebuild
5) You told me that you were chasing Forward Air for a refund then you would "make good" on the freight issue
6) you claim I "threw a fit", you know this is a lie I tolerated weeks of excuses for not shipping the plane and when you did not hold up your end of the bargain I simply asked for a very modest refund of the freight that I paid for and did not recieve I asked for $100 not the $165.
7) You state that the Gear, Pipe, valves are worth $1300, maybe new but these are over 15 years old.
8) leave my wife out of this she has never done anything to you, nor has she got involved in this, so I am not sure where that came from, other than maybe cowardice on your part trying to deflect blame and attention from yourself.
9) You never once mentioned I would have to rebuild the plane, in fact you kept saying it only required a going over and some paint, and that you had a friend come by the day you were crating it that really wanted to buy it from you because it was in such good condition
10) please do share the email that contains you coming clean on the condition of the jet as I have never seen it.

Regardless of the condition of the Jet I have never once asked you to take the whole thing back since I am very aware of the buyer beware of purcahsing online, I simply asked for a partial refund of the freight for the portion that was not delivered as promised. I have tried time and again to get in touch with you to resolve this and now you have my money you are nowhere to be found. You were very accessible while the purchase was going on but not accessible now.
I purchased this from you against the advice of others on RCU because, based on our discussions I thought you sounded like a stand up guy that got a bad "rap" online. I trusted you and maybe that was my mistake, I am simply asking for you to do the right thing and refund the freight.

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You feel slighted in your dealings with someone . . . I get it.
No, It is not a crime to be new to jets. Heck, I guess it's not even a crime to get taken when it comes to doing business on the internet.
I'm just suprised that people continue to pay a little and hope for alot.

Just like a TV camera adds "weight" to a person, 72dpi web photos are better than the worlds best airbrush artist.
If you don't beleive me just take pics of one of your planes worst blemishes and post it on the web. :)

I'm sorry you didn't get what you were expecting.
I know what it feels like to drop some coin on something that is less than perfect.

IMO, The level of trust you have in someone to do the right thing should be directly proportional to the available recourse and inversely proportional to the monetary value of the transaction.

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[email protected]

Give me a Fricken brake dude!!!!! This sounds like a bunch of crying to me...... and or buyers remorse!! We are all big boys here, and when you make a commitment to buy sonething used you stick with it and understand that nothing used and sold at a lower price is going to be perfect or in new fashion. I have many business dealings with King Chancellor for the the past 5 + years..... and everything I have bought and or even sold to him has been straight up and very good deals for both parties. He's a incredible talent and has done me BIG favors when he didn't have to just to make all deals go smoothly.

Stop cry'n like a little girl, Man up and stop talken smack about people for no real reason. If you don't like it, go out and buy brand new kits, ARF's and such while we big boys wheel and deal here on RCU


Wow, I guess all I can say to you is Grow up? and learn to read .... You are just plain ignorant......

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Thans, the funny thing is I am not disputing the Jet, I accept the responsibility, I am just looking to be reimbursed for the frieght that ended up not being deliverd as agreed to. I posted here due to the fact he was ignoring me and this got action with him last time.

RE: Beware the
 

Hi,

I think it can truly be said that people can no longer spell.

RE: Beware the
 

Vettdriver,
I don't think that Andy was expecting a lot by any stretch, but at least getting close to what is described should happen. However, when it comes to an airplane of this vintage, $1500 is a fair price for a "fair" condition model. The market today sucks for selling jets, there are turnkey Kingcats being sold for around $5000 with turbines. The Deluxe kit from CJM with landing gear wheels and brakes is only $2350. Add in a Tam pipe, $500, and you're still under 3K. The servo's in this jet are junk, they're sloppy old Hitec 5645's. And, there's only 4 of them, I guess they could be taken out and used in a sport plane, but they certainly didn't add to the value.
The "turbine conversion" that was done had some plywood hacked in there, some dubro fuel tanks, and that's about it. This is the old one piece wing version. Based on the price of a new kit with pipe, and the condition of this particular airplane, $1500 was very high for it. Again, the price would have been fair for "fair condition".

Either way, as Andy mentioned, he's not trying to get money back for the airplane itself. But when you pay for a specified shipping, that's what you should get, when it only cost $57 instead of $165, and only made it to Seattle, the difference SHOULD be refunded.

Andy is correct though, the last thread regarding this seller and (ironically a phantom) was the same story, the buyer could not reach the seller until he posted on RCU.

As for your airbrusher comment, wow, hit me where it hurts LMAO!!!!!! I will never even try for photo realism with the airbrush haha, but I have seen some airbrusher's work that you would be hard pressed to tell it from a photo, however, take that internet photo and let an airbrusher touch it up! whoa!!!! ;)