Derek.Koopowitz

#2 was changed to make it not mandatory in the last cycle. You are free to stay in your current class as long as you want.

jgg215

Joe,

I know someone who applied for a waiver last year as well, but only one. The waivers are granted by the AMA by someone who is probably not involved in and is not personally aware of the circumstances behinfd the request and is under no obligation to go out and seek input. I suspect, although noone comes to mind, that many drop out rather than go through the waiver process.

Why not change to:

A pilot's class is determined by the selection of a class in the first contest attended each calendar year. This base class for the year may be the same as the previous year,any higher class or one class below. For the rest of the year the pilot may not fly in any class below the selected base class. This applies to all classes- Sportsman through FAI.


John

rcpattern

My Feedback: (45)

I never understood the desire to eliminate the takeoff and landing scores. To me, those are free points. Frankly, if I put a killer flight and another guy puts up an identical flight, but I do a nice smooth landing, and he crashes exiting the box, I think the nice smooth landing should score better as it was a better FLIGHT, not just inside the box. The last time I checked, takeoff and landings are part of a FLIGHT. Put a little effort into them and you can pick up some easy points. Yes, we are an aerobatic event, but in IMAC you don't even have to be the one to takeoff and land the plane. I think if you can fly an aerobatic sequence, you certainly should be able to takeoff and land. I learned when I first started flying, every good flight ends with a good landing. In a full scale, I don't care how good the flight from New York to LA is, if the pilot kills you on landing, that is not a successful flight. Taking off and landing a pattern plane is very easy compared to some of the stuff out there and as such I don't see the issue judging it. If you put some effort into the landings especially you are less likely to tear stuff up. Yes, I know the other side of it, people tear planes up trying to hit the center line and such, but that is something they need to learn. I still enjoy going out with a sport plane doing flights of nothing but touch and goes. Too many times people starting pattern focus on the maneuvers instead of the basics such as flying a straight line and takeoffs and landings. The guys who are totally comfortable with their airplanes always fly better as they arent' nervous about the limits of the plane or their own limits. I tell guys I'm helping to go sport fly your pattern plane sometimes and just enjoy how it flies. In the end is makes you a MUCH better pilot and also shows you what you can do with your plane.

I think we need to quit trying to dumb down pattern. Back in the 80's and 90's when pattern was huge (yes, there were less other things to do), most of us got into it because the cool airplanes, and the competition. The sequences were very challenging with the planes we flew, even "Novice." How many Advanced guys could actually do 3 loops now, or even 3 rolls which was a staple back then. Many keep thinking that by lowering the difficulty and eliminating rules we will attract more people, and I think the exact opposite is true. You aren't going to get your average sport flyer to want to fly pattern. It requires a certain mindset and desire. I think as we get older, and I'm certainly not old, but we come to realize our limitations and change our thought process on why we do it. We need to remember why we got into pattern in the first place. I keep hearing how you have to spend a fortune to be competitive and this is not the case. I have flown several Wind 110 planes and I could fly them and be competitive at most contests in Masters. Are there advantages to a 2m plane, sure or we wouldn't fly them, but you to say that a slightly smaller plane isn't competitive just isn't the case. I have never had an unlimited budget in pattern and have always had to be smart with what I have bought. I have never owned and most likely will never own and Oxai plane, but I have certainly won a lot of contests where there were Oxai planes being flown. No matter what rules you create, people will always find a way to exploit them and people will spend more for the latest and greatest toys. We complain about spending 100.00 on a prop and such, but will easily spend 300-400 dollars to go to a contest for a weekend. Pattern is never going to be cheap, but I don't think it has to be near as expensive as many would want. There have been viable options for low cost competitive airframes for years. The Black Magic series comes to mind, but you had to build them. Jeff Carder's new Lightning is another example. They were both light and more than competitive in any class. Unfortunately what many want is an Oxai quality plane for a fraction of the cost and be able to put cheap equipment in it, and expect it to fly as well as the more expensive stuff.

I think the biggest detriment now to contest attendance isn't the cost of the plane, but the cost of the gas and such to get there. Get gas back to $1.00 a gallon and I bet you'll see the numbers at events rise, regardless of the cost of the plane.

Arch

J Lachowski

My Feedback: (46)

People make there choices. If a person is really serious about continuing in this sport, they will make the effort to go through the waiver process. It's not that big a deal. Maybe the waiver process needs to be better defined and people need to be made more aware of it as an option. I don't know who approves waivers but I would think they should be processed through the contest board for approval, not someone at AMA to approve. Maybe someone here on RCU who is on the contest board can clarify this. Scott?

Your idea for change is ripe for controversy which we don't need.

rcpattern

My Feedback: (45)

I don't think anyone who has ever applied has ever been denied and I wouldn't expect them to. If you want to move back, go for it. Peer pressure will keep most people from dropping back to a class when they shouldn't.

Arch

jgg215

From the rules:

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Consideration will be given to requests for reclassification to a lower class for various reasons, such as disability or breaks from participation of several years. For a contestant to be reclassified to a lower class, the contestant must petition via email (or letter if email is not available) to the contestant's AMA District Contest Board (CB) representative explaining the reasons for the reclassification. The CB representative will forward a recommendation for approval/disapproval to the AMA District Vice President (DVP). The AMA DVP will concur/non-concur and forward the decision to the petitioner and AMA District CB representative with an info copy to the AMA Technical Director.

This suggests that either you become disabled or take a few years off. It does not appear to cover the reasons I suggested earlier except very indirectly("for various reasons"). As soon as there is a suggestion that you take a few years off before applying, I would consider that to be a very negative aspect of the rule. While I know that waiver requests have been accepted that do not appear to qualify, how many competitors have just quit after reading the rule? While is entirely possible that a waiver request has never been rejected, how would a potential waiver requestee ever know that?
I'm also missing the controversial aspects of the proposal I made.

John

J Lachowski

My Feedback: (46)

I admit I haven't read the reclassification paragraph in some time. Obviously, it is fine. Maybe it just needs more clarification.

I can see with your suggested paragraph that there will be someone who will jump back and forth. Maybe it needs to be stated that once you move down a class you must remain there a minimum number of years. Also, FAI is totally independent of AMA and should not be included. You can already jump back and forth from FAI to AMA. I know a certain FAI pilot who flys Advanced from time to time. That individual never flew Masters and has every right to fly Advanced when he feels like it.

cmoulder

That pretty much describes just about everything that has been going on lately.

I'll bet somebody has mentioned it somewhere before, but it appears winter is Pattern Silly Season.

Speaking of landing... I have flown Intermediate for a couple of years and started practicing Advanced this fall, which I intend to fly in the upcoming season.

I was at my small local field on December 30 enjoying the chance to fly my Osiris in the bizarrely good weather we've been having lately. Temps were close to 60 and the wind was nearly dead calm.

The field is a pretty small one that is located in a County Park - on top of a land fill, naturally - with hillsides sloping away from the small runway (23 feet x 300 feet) and the comparatively small amount of real estate surrounding it. At the bottom of one of the hillsides is the Hudson River, which you want to avoid at all costs. Because of the overall layout, it is a place where deadsticks don't often end well because the pilot cannot see the model below the crest of the hill. Even powered landings can be difficult if a bad approach is made that eats up a lot of the runway.

Although I learned how to fly there and have made literally thousands of flights (and landings!) at that location since then, I still find it helpful to practice landings and deadsticks, which I spent the good part of one of my flights doing with the Osiris. I practiced by pulling the throttle stick back when the plane was in situations where landing would be awkward or difficult and then doing a mock deadstick approach back to the field. It occurred to me to practice it because I know that sometimes batteries develop bad cells without us noticing it, or I forget to set the timer, or ignore it, whatever. And I am all too familiar with the insidious dangers of deadsticking there, or overshooting landings. When the LVC kicks in, usually there is only one shot at a good landing.

So thousands of flights later and with a few Pattern seasons behind me, I am still practicing landings and it amuses me to hear that this basic skill should be de-emphasized for new Pattern pilots.

All of this My Very Humble Opinion, of course.

jgg215

This is from the AMA competition rules. While there is obviously a whole additional  rulebook for F3A competition, this paragraph definitely includes FAI as an AMA class. While we can(and do) arbitrarily exclude FAI from an advancement path, it is not clear to me that FAI pattern is totally independent of the AMA and should be excluded from an advancement path for that reason.

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7. Pattern event classes: The outdoor Pattern event shall be divided into five(5) classes. The first four (4) classes shall (in order of increasingdifficulty) be referred to as Sportsman, Intermediate, Advanced and Masters.The fifth class shall be referred to as the FAI class. The Sportsman class issupplemental (see Supplemental and Provisional Rules of the General Section ofthe Competition Regulations).  Competitorsmust be advised prior to the start of the contest of any planned deviationsfrom standard AMA rules pertaining to the events they have entered.

As to objecting to flyers jumping back and forth year to year, you give an example of someone doing that contest to contest under the current rules. I can't see this being a real issue in any case. So what if someone did bounce back and forth?

John

MTK

Better, Pete...good for you

petec

My Feedback: (58)

Thanks Matt. Hope to see you in the Spring.

MTK

I think I know this guy too...He tends to fly Advanced with a trainer tho, just for funsies

cmoulder

Great. So you're telling me I'm gonna get my @$$ kicked by a guy flying a trainer.

If that's the case, I deserve it, no matter who it is.

J Lachowski

My Feedback: (46)

Matt, Yep thats who I was thinking about.

I never flew Advanced. I went from pre-turnaround Sportsman to Expert T/A. To think of it, I've been banging my head for years in Masters at the Nats and nothing to show for it. Never won a thing at a Nats. If this idea became a rule, I'd seriously consider moving down to Advanced just to have a chance at some Nats hardware which I otherwise probably will never get in Masters. My other option Fun Scale.

MTK

Joey,

Why not fly Basic IMAC? The pattern planes would be legal in Basic. I am seriously considering it for this coming year

BTW- IMAC may have some screwed up ways of doing things but at least they got the Basic thing right....

MTK

Quite likely! Imagine doing 4 pt rolls in full cross control manner. Doable but hard to do precisely. Snaps are the real bear tho...

When my grandson isn't flying his trainer and I feel like funning, I try to do that too....Very difficult by pattern standard

J Lachowski

My Feedback: (46)

Read my Lips. "I will never fly IMAC"

rix

A refreshing voice of reason...

KLXMASTER14

Go watch an IMAC event. There you will witness the consequences of not scoring takeoffs and landings.

Jetdesign

My Feedback: (8)

Maybe I'm an odd-ball, but I like being judged on takeoff and landing. I think the whole flight should be done with precision.

viva_peru

I just got started a couple of years ago and I see the points that I get for takeoff and landing as freebies, even if they are only k=1 manuevers. I never understood why people would want those points to go away; in fact, the only 10 I have ever scored was on a landing during a particularly windy contest day. I guess my landing just looked a little better than everyone else's. By the same token, my only zero was when I missed the runway by landing 2 feet off the edge, but it gave me something to laugh about. Either way, an interesting discussion.

Teo

cmoulder

Maybe not.

As Joe L mentioned earlier, for a while take-offs and landings were not judged, but the consensus was to go back to judging them.

I might propose a rule change:

In order for someone to propose a rule change, he/she must have been flying Pattern for at least five years consecutively and must have competed in at least 3 contests per year and must fly Advanced or above.

This would prevent a lot of ill-conceived suggestions from those of us who don't have nearly enough experience nor historical perspective concerning Pattern to be proposing squat.

klhoard

My Feedback: (10)

.
The only problem I have with scoring T/O and landings is if you're not flying off of a paved runway or a grass runway that is perfectly level like a putting green. The small bumps you can't see from the pilots station cause your plane to either jump in the air or bounce on landings.
.
Other than that, I think scoring the T/O and landings keep it safe . . .
.

nonstoprc

My Feedback: (90)

+1.

Every AMA pilot is judged on taking off, landing or any other AMA maneuvers in a class, the rule is fair.

EHFAI

Bob

An experience requirement for proposal submitters would sure cut down on discussions like this forum. OTOH, observations from a fresh perspective and / or "out of box" thinking has the potential for providing good and useful proposals. I suspect we're better off allowing proposals from all quarters and relying upon the experience of our contest board to sort it all out - these folks usually way exceed the experience requirement you suggest.

A proposal that might keep the older generation more interested and competitive would be some form of score handicapping. I favor 0.5% addition to the score for each year of age, say above 55. Could really be made interesting if 0.5% were deducted from scores of those below age 30.