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CL Stunt and Pattern (similiar yet different)

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CL Stunt and Pattern (similiar yet different)

Old 11-02-2012, 09:45 PM
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Passport1
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Default CL Stunt and Pattern (similiar yet different)

This story is not really about Pattern but yet it may be of interest to some of you. About 2 months ago I started flying CL Stunt and I am totally hooked. Up until then my experience with control line had been limited to getting dizzy and a few loops for the most part. Occasionally someone had one and would let me fly it but they were never set up right or we flew in the dirt. You all know how much fun glow fuel and dirt is (Yuk)

Anyway a good friend of mine in Bakersfield, Larry Williams had been after me to go flying with him for a couple months and I kept making excuses not to. Then all the sudden one day he showed up at the house and handed me a nobler RTF and said he wouldn't take no for an answer. At that point I had no choice so off we went.

Larry went first and all I can say is even though I didn't know the pattern I was super impressed simply because he was doing something more then a loop or figure 8. His plane was a simple $100.00 ARF with an OS 46 in it but it flew really nice. The engine 4 cycles when level and the breaks into a clean 2 cycle when the nose gets pointed up. That is where most go wrong when they try to do this alone or with another RC flyer. The engine gets set way to lean and then the plane is doing an 80 mph circle instead of 50mph and believe me that just sucks.

Well later that day I started flying the nobler and immediately new I was hooked. I started taking it with me everywhere and was always able to find a little time to sneak in a flight or two. Several people have gotten the bug in the club as well and now there are 6 of us having a blast and more with planes on order. Well you guys know how I am, nothing can be just for fun, and I started asking about when is the next contest.

Fortunately Larry was up on that stuff and also introduced me to his buddy Ray Firkins. Ray is the modelers modeler. His planes are so pristine and hes a heck of a pilot. After flying with him a time or two we were off to the Basin for my first event. I could not believe how nervous I got and seriously considered backing out especially when I looked at the flight order and surprise I was up first lol.'

Anyway with Rays coaching I got through it and ended up coming in 4th only 2 points out of second. Off course Ray ran away with it and is truely amazing to watch.

That was 4 weeks ago tomorrow. Once back in Bakersfield I sort of put the Nobler on the back burner since the shootout was around the corner, but I did though it in just before I left for Tucson just in case there was some free time, and I am glad I did.

See, at the shootout once they are done for the day the field is closed to all RC flying, but there is no rule about CL's. Of course I heard all the jokes when I set it out like, WOW your getting old, and look its a plane on strings. That all lasted until I did the first manuever. I don't care what you fly when you see a plane coming straight down and square off a corner at 5 feet to a perfectly level inverted flight it gets you adrenaline going. Pretty soon everyone was right to the circle and when I landed I got more applause then I ever did after a freestlye lol.

Next I turned it over to Randy Archer and he had a blast. Gernot Bruchman, was looking interested so I let him go next and even though he had never seen one before he did ok for a short flight as did Brian Gilmore and several others. Trust me a nobler isn't the plane to learn on but it was the plane to use that showed them immediately its not as easy as it looks. All in all several of the guys are now getting back into it and I am sure they will have a blast. BTW Herbert, you better get that Nobler put together you bought a few weeks ago, and there is no builder of the model rule in FAI....... How cool is that.

That was two weeks ago. Since I was already in Tucson and I had heard that there was a beautiful facility here built just for Stunt I decided to stay a extra day to check it out and hopefully catch some of the really good pilots at the field just to watch them. It was amazing when I pulled up just to see the planes sitting out there I knew I had to be in the right spot. After watching a few of them fly I walked up and asked them if it was alright if I could join them.

They said no problem and so I went and got out the nobler. Let me tell you that was a hard thing to do since it is such an old worn out rag but still flies pretty good. Once I introduced myself one of the guys said to me I heard you were doing this. That guys name was Bob Whitely (Former National Champion #1) then a guy name Kieth Trostle (Former National Champion #2) pulled up. These are the guys I have read about since I was a kid. Both are still incredible pilots as well as builders and after watching me a couple flights basically asked me what my intentions were in CL. I said to make the Team. I know its a long shot but thats all I can think about.

That was about 100 flights ago now and those two along with Randy have just about maxed me out daily with information. The nobler finally had to be retired last week and just when I thought I was done Randy set me up with a new SV11. (Basically I have now moved from an Ugly stick to a Genesis) This thing is frickin awesome, talk about connected to something. Anyhow what I am getting to is this. If you love pattern you are a good candidate to try Stunt. It is the same type of dicipline we all love, however stunt guys adjust the handle and plane instead of the TX.

Stunt also has several other things that are IMO very cool. Number one is the plane never gets more then 70 feet away from the pilot or 140 feet from the judges, so seeing it is not an issue. The second thing is there scoring system. It seems like every precision event other then pattern realizes that whole and half points are not the optimum way to score. By AMA rules each manuever in CL stunt is scored on a scale of 0 to 40 which is great and in FAI they use 0 to 10 in 10th points. Imagine that a precision event with precision scoring.

Electric is the future in this event as well. Of course all I had to do was email Steve Neu and Brenner and well you guys can probably guess where that is going to lead to. Another really good guy I have gotten to know is Bob Hunt. He is a former world champion as well as national champion and has pioneered some really incredible building techniques. Almost instantly in every conversation I had the Contra drive is brought up. I said if your serious I know the guys that can do it if anyone can. Not sure they believed me for sure in the beginning however it is now well on its way. Anyway I could go on forever but I will cut it off here for now.

I do however want to say thanks once again to Larry, Ray, Bob W., Bob H. Kieth and Randy for all the coaching and help they are really an awesome bunch of guys. Actually, so far I have not met anyone that isn't. I have attached a few pics of the planes and facilities which I hope you enjoy. Tomorrow I will get some more I just havent had time as they are working my butt off out there.

If anyone is interested let me know and for a couple hundred bucks you to can have a blast. BTW they to have an Oxai. Just located in Russia instead of China and for $4800.00 you can get the most immaculant completely finished and test flown all composite work of art with a .70 on a pipe delivered to your door. Talk about hi tec....
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Old 11-03-2012, 02:17 AM
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Default RE: CL Stunt and Pattern (similiar yet different)

Great report Chip. I saw one flying electric last year and it gave me goose bumps.
When my father and I attended the combined Nats in the 60's and 70's we were always most interested in seeing controliners flying stunt. They used to get static judged for appearance. Those planes were the most beautifully built I've ever seen. I was however hooked on pattern.
As a kid I knew the owner of Top Flight Sid Axelrod. He gave me a Nobler Jr. I built it without help from my Dad. I was so proud of that plane. Flying it was a blast but it went by the wayside.
It's great to see that this is pure fun for you. I'll be keeping an eye on your progress. And by the way Bob Hunt is a great guy and a friend of pattern.
All the best with it. Mike Mueller
Old 11-03-2012, 09:52 AM
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Default RE: CL Stunt and Pattern (similiar yet different)

Hello Chip

I like a lot that you have proven the stunt and have gotten excited
I value (like pattern pilot and judge) that a top pilot like you are he finds in the stunt something interesting and transcendent
I coincide with you in that all pattern pilots proves the stunt at some time since he is necessary the same dedication and training
Many pattern pilots regrettably believe that their class is something like that as the F 1 of the aero modelling that which is not certain. It is very well a great truth and this that he tells it somebody that I eat your he has practiced many classes with success.
A greeting from Argentina

Mario Vagliente
Old 11-03-2012, 10:01 AM
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Default RE: CL Stunt and Pattern (similiar yet different)

Dang Chip ,
Have not seen you this excited in a while.
I`ve got my Nobler out and looked at it with my sweet custom Handle, But Brett has put me back to work on another Bipe
May Be I can get a volunteer to put it together LOL
As a Kid I never flew Stunt ,but if I had ,I probably would have never flown Pattern! LOL you know I love to build,,
Iv`e talked with Dean P. for a few years about taking the plunge, But I just never seem to have the time. Looks like this might be the year.

I have always admired the dedication and Spirit of the Event I`m excited to start and learn a new dicipline,
and I am really looking forward to flying with the local Stunt club this fall.
Good luck on your Quest, and a Contra Ship with adjustable drag now That sounds High Tech!

Old 11-03-2012, 12:18 PM
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Default RE: CL Stunt and Pattern (similiar yet different)

E- Powered U/C Stunt is truly something to behold. Near silent and a joy to watch... and participate in. We run pusher props , so line tension is great. Fly in paved lots, small school lots, and other areas too small for even park flyers. Passer-bys offer positive comments.

Many U/C stunt events in the N.E., typically one day, fly two rounds and the contest is over. To me, that's a bonus. Brodak's June event is run over 6 days and draws approx. 150 contestants.( multiple events, but stunt the largest draw).

It is possible to fly pattern and stunt as they compliment each other in many ways.

Bob Hunt told me so years ago and glad I took his advice.
Old 11-03-2012, 12:38 PM
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Default RE: CL Stunt and Pattern (similiar yet different)

Square loops and wingovers are cool looking. I got the love of model building from my dad who flew CL but I never really did, but I really loved how Model Aviation covered Stunt back in the late 70's and early 80's. They made the Walker Cup seem like a heroic battle for the ages. Any time I see something by Bob Hunt or Bill Werwage I pay attention. I built some classic stunt planes once, because I was handed a box of old Fox and OS 35s at work, but sold them without flying them. You have me thinking.
Old 11-04-2012, 02:32 AM
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Default RE: CL Stunt and Pattern (similiar yet different)

Control line stunt can be a lot of fun, but I think that it gets overlooked nowadays because it is viewed as being low-tech when compared to R/C or other activities. To me, a plane is a plane and whether it is free flight, U/C or R/C and it can be fun. I gave up flying U/C simply because I had no one to fly with and when you are flying stunt, it always helps to have someone around to critique your flight. I also missed the social aspect of flying in a group.

One of the hardest things to do was to set-up the engine properly to get the 4/2 break. As I transitioned to R/C, people were starting to experiment with tune pipes and low pitched props as a way generating lots of thrust while still keeping speed the down. The one think that stunt taught me was how to set-up an engine so that it would start easily and run consistently. Before transitioning to electrics, I never used a starter and people were surprised to see me show up, set up, and within 3 flips be ready to go. Stunt taught me how to do that (that was before starters were allowed). Now that electric power systems are available, I think that it would be fun to try it again. I think that it would be much easier.

Glad to see that people are keeping an open mind about other aspects of the hobby,

Teo
Old 11-04-2012, 05:45 AM
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Default RE: CL Stunt and Pattern (similiar yet different)

I love my CL plane,
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Old 11-04-2012, 09:21 PM
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Default RE: CL Stunt and Pattern (similiar yet different)

Hah, how amusing, I'm currently building an electric control line stunter myself!

Nice story
Old 11-05-2012, 01:21 AM
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Default RE: CL Stunt and Pattern (similiar yet different)

Neato, Chip. Glad you found Christopher Columbus Park, nice field and plenty of talent.

AMA Stunt still has appearance points and BOM rule for event 322 JSO. If you fly in SoCal contests and don't build your own model, you have a point deficit of up to 20 points as they add the appearance points to the flight score. (Some eastern and southern contests elect to dispense with appearance points.)

Stunt is a lot of fun, I did it for a long time until I started flying Pattern last year. Still thinking of converting my piped ship into electric. Whitely and Trostle (he is a C/L Scale Champ, too) want to build a contra prop ship in the worst way...
Chris...
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Old 11-05-2012, 03:59 AM
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Default RE: CL Stunt and Pattern (similiar yet different)

ORIGINAL: stuntflyr

Whitely and Trostle (he is a C/L Scale Champ, too) want to build a contra prop ship in the worst way...
Chris...
So does Hunt. After learning what all is going on with a single prop regardless of direction it turns I am sold on the Contra myself. Brennar has already worked up for us and Steve Neu has the motor so we are about ready to pull the trigger. Bob got hammered in that storm and is still not back home. We figured the total weight will be a couple ounces lighter then a good piped set up full of fuel. Nice looking plane BTW I attached a picture of my new plane as well. I understand all the builder of the model rules and do not mind taking a hit on appearance points right now. Its just good to get in as many contests as possible. I will build one of my new ones but Bob is going to do the prototype so we can get it in the air ASAP.

C
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Old 11-05-2012, 04:20 AM
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ORIGINAL: viva_peru

Control line stunt can be a lot of fun, but I think that it gets overlooked nowadays because it is viewed as being low-tech when compared to R/C or other activities.

Teo
I agree 100%. IMO Stunt is if anything more technical the RC Pattern in many ways, and it will probably never be an event that turns into plug and play for the most part. I love experimenting and trying different combos its amazing what works and what doesn't on each particular plane.

BTW we have another person hooked. Matt Stringer is going to fly CL and some pattern next year while taking a little break from IMAC. In case his name doesn't ring a bell he is the kid that just won every round of the Shootout en route to becoming the Unlimited Champion. (With a borrowed plane) Incredible talent. Should be a good addition to the Masters group.

C
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Old 11-05-2012, 07:36 AM
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Default RE: CL Stunt and Pattern (similiar yet different)

Cris , That is a Beautiful Ship!
Bryan
Old 11-05-2012, 12:11 PM
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ORIGINAL: Passport1

ORIGINAL: stuntflyr

Whitely and Trostle (he is a C/L Scale Champ, too) want to build a contra prop ship in the worst way...
Chris...
So does Hunt. After learning what all is going on with a single prop regardless of direction it turns I am sold on the Contra myself. Brennar has already worked up for us and Steve Neu has the motor so we are about ready to pull the trigger. Bob got hammered in that storm and is still not back home. We figured the total weight will be a couple ounces lighter then a good piped set up full of fuel. Nice looking plane BTW I attached a picture of my new plane as well. I understand all the builder of the model rules and do not mind taking a hit on appearance points right now. Its just good to get in as many contests as possible. I will build one of my new ones but Bob is going to do the prototype so we can get it in the air ASAP.

C
Hi Chip,
Great news on the contra front. i have thought of it as being the way to go since seeing Tony's Pattern ships with it and learning to trim with single props since childhood made the benefits seem all the more dramatic. I have down and right thrust in mine, a smidgin of rudder offset, and the usual tip weight and leadout adjustments which move every time you change some of the others, whew!
Your SV is an ARC or ARF? Nice look, neat finish. Most guys don't get 100 flights out of an ARF Nobler so I figured you had caught the vision with some good mods and a mentor or two, plus you know the competition score.
Thanks for the compliment.
Chris...

Old 11-05-2012, 12:21 PM
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ORIGINAL: flyncajun

Cris , That is a Beautiful Ship!
Bryan
Thanks Bryan.
Chris...

Old 11-06-2012, 01:42 AM
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Your SV is an ARC or ARF? Nice look, neat finish. Most guys don't get 100 flights out of an ARF Nobler so I figured you had caught the vision with some good mods and a mentor or two, plus you know the competition score.
Thanks for the compliment.
Chris...


[/quote]
The SV was an ARF, however now I am not sure what it is. I stripped off the original covering and refinished it. Today I added some fences to the stab and finished it up. As for the Nobler, Ray Ferkins was the one that put it together origianlly and he did a heck of a job. It has more then 200 flights on it and has had a couple accidents along the way. I quit flying it last week because the wing was coming loose again from the fuse and I did not feel like fixing it again. It was still a good plane so I handed it down to Matt and they have it ready to go again.

Here's the finished SV
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Old 11-06-2012, 11:21 AM
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Default RE: CL Stunt and Pattern (similiar yet different)

Aha!
We got another one ... Glad to see you enjoying Stunt, Chip.
I've always enjoyed a little Stunt between RC contests and it's gratifying to see others figure it out.

Even flying the best radios we've had available, I have always been painfully aware of the difference between even a great radio and the true immediate control that Stunt offers.
Also, E-power is even more of a boon to CL Stunt than it is to pattern.
Chip, get rid of that slimer, electrify the SV and discover the benefits of a backwards prop!

take care All,
Dean Pappas
Old 11-06-2012, 11:40 AM
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Dean was singing the same tune about pipes 20 years ago. I never really got the hang of them, and 3 years ago the Worlds were won by a V60 Tigre on a muffler, so use whatever you want, Chip.
I was just going to ask what engine you have in the SV...
Chris...
Old 11-06-2012, 01:42 PM
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ORIGINAL: stuntflyr

Dean was singing the same tune about pipes 20 years ago. I never really got the hang of them, and 3 years ago the Worlds were won by a V60 Tigre on a muffler, so use whatever you want, Chip.
I was just going to ask what engine you have in the SV...
Chris...
Hmnn, three years ago ...that was then, and now ?

E-powered took first at the Worlds 2012 and the top ten had other e-powered winners, among them Americans !

IMO, those of us who follow Dean's compass have'nt been led astray .
Old 11-06-2012, 02:20 PM
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We don't generate the velocities in CL stunt that the F3A boys do. Consequently, you can win with ANYTHING in the nose so long as it runs reliably and steady. In other words, you can't really gain any significant adavantage by way of powerplant type in Stunt. Our "55 MPH" speed limit negates a lot of powerplant advantages. Its more about straight building and a $%^ load of practice. If you couldn't win with an I.C., you probably won't win with an electric.

2 strokes, 4 strokes, electrics-its all good if you have it in you to practice, (and can build straight).
Old 11-06-2012, 03:36 PM
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Hi Chip

You sure are exited ! Thats quite a smile on your face holding the Sharkfinder. You have all the right people tutoring you. Yes I could see you making the team in a few years. Your still young so stay healthy and you could do it. Since I picked up the handle again after 35 years, my radio is getting dusty. Had a bunch of fun the last two summers flying Stunt contests. It's all fun. Just got a new Shark 35 kit for my winter build. Electric Stunt is great. Just miss the smell of castor oil.
Old 11-06-2012, 04:26 PM
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What a great story!

It is one of those "try it you might like it".

For more info on CL flying check out Stunthanger.com
Everything CL - stunt, combat, carrier, scale, racing and more...
Old 11-06-2012, 05:17 PM
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ORIGINAL: F.Imbriaco


ORIGINAL: stuntflyr

Dean was singing the same tune about pipes 20 years ago. I never really got the hang of them, and 3 years ago the Worlds were won by a V60 Tigre on a muffler, so use whatever you want, Chip.
I was just going to ask what engine you have in the SV...
Chris...
Hmnn, three years ago ...that was then, and now ?

E-powered took first at the Worlds 2012 and the top ten had other e-powered winners, among them Americans !

IMO, those of us who follow Dean's compass have'nt been led astray .
Oh I wasn't saying that electric isn't good and getting better, I know Igor won this year with electric. I just wanted to leave it there that a 45 year old engine won time before this summer!
And Dean is great, he is just always pushing the latest thing as a salesman. He does know his stuff, no doubt.
Chris...

Old 11-06-2012, 07:58 PM
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Dean was singing the same tune about pipes 20 years ago. I never really got the hang of them, and 3 years ago the Worlds were won by a V60 Tigre on a muffler, so use whatever you want, Chip.
I was just going to ask what engine you have in the SV...
Chris...


[/quote]
You are absolutely correct about being tutored by the right folks . Last week was one I won't soon forget. Getting crituqued from Whitely and Kieth flight after flight was amazing, those guys don't miss a thing. I can distinctly remember thinking to myself this is what the guys I work with in pattern must feel like at times, (information overload) and loved every minute of it. lol I am sure they saved me several years of trial and error if not more, when it comes to how to fly, and present the pattern.

As for which combination is the best its hard to say at this point but I gotta believe the electrics are leading the way. Sure there is no doubt that an IC engine in the proper hands is a beatiful thing to see and fly. My SV has a modified OS 55 AX in it swinging a bolly 12-4 (3) blade and it is pretty sweet. Here in Ca. I run it on 10% Omega and in Tucson 15%. The reason I have not gone electric yet is I really want to learn with something that is going to make me work and that is what the IC powerplant does. Even though it runs super consistant it is not the same throughout the day due to temp. changes and sometimes I miss it by a 100 RPM or so. Granted I never have to move the needle very far but it doesn't take much of a mistake to really change the way you have to fly the sequence. I figure if I can adapt to that on a flight by flight basis it may help in the long run.

My next plane will be electric since Steve Neu has already given us 4 options to go with, 2 of which are innrunners without a gearbox and 2 with one. I have already made up my mind that I want the gear drive to help keep the downlines under control as well as the whipping in the wind. Bob was worried about the gearbox but Steve reassured us the g's are no problem. I think some others tried a similiar set up a couple years ago but not with a Neu motor or Steve himself being involved. We all know Steve is a competition guy and I love the fact that he is willing to help and work with so many different facets of the hobby.

Anyhow now onto to Pappas. Dean and I go way back, and it is true Dean has always been an innovator. (Ten Pound Brain) I can remember drinkin a beer and eating pizza with him at the 85 Team Trials and all he talked about was stunt and some guy named Bobby Hunt. Since then he and Bob have been working to push the envelope in Stunt and been very successful along the way. I have never seen Dean fly CL but if anyone remembers the 1985 plane he designed called a Maya it had all the traits of a stunter. Still to this day I think it was the most beautiful pattern planes I have ever seen. He finished it in a pattern scheme and then added the details like a stunt plane would have. (cool fillets and panel lines etc) Absolutely gorgeous. However on the flip side he showed up a couple years later with a semi scale P-51 to fly in FAI lol. Not sure what happened that winter but he must of been extremely bored. (Just Kidding Dean)

Don't get me wrong I really love F3A and will always continue flying RC Pattern, however I am really hooked on Stunt as well. Some guys think it may be a passing interest, which is possible, however when I am out flying the SV I have the same feeling I had when I started Racing in the 90's and heli's in 2000. We all know what that got me. 2 cool trophies and divorced lol.

C

C
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Old 11-06-2012, 09:19 PM
  #25  
Dean Pappas
 
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Default RE: CL Stunt and Pattern (similiar yet different)

Like I said, Chip ... I am just tickled that you see how much fun some of us have been having all the while.

You know, that piped Stunt setup was invented by Rich Tower and yours truly as the result of a happy accident while developing a quiet setup for the '86 Pattern season.
Many Nationals and a handful of Worlds were won with it.
The mutation of E-Pattern technology into Stunt, with a transfusion from the E-helicopter 3-D guys of the RPM governor, has been a blast too.
Cross pollination between the branches of the hobby is good for everybody.

You're right, learning on wet power will teach some good technical and flying skills. I just like being able to fly in the park without being chased away.

Back in the late eighties, Ivan and I were toying around with the idea of starting up a provisional event at the NATs : "Stunt for Pattern Guys". Shame it never got off the ground ...

Come lurk on Stunthangar.com! Better yet, register.

take care,
Dean

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