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Throttle to Rudder Rate mix

Old 11-26-2012, 03:48 AM
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highside
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Default Throttle to Rudder Rate mix

Hi All,

My trusty 9ZAP has died a hideous death, so I'm on the look out for a new radio.

One feature I'm struggling to find is the rate control mix supported by the Futaba Z and MZ series i.e., a mix that allows you to control the rate (travel) of one function from another in a continuously variable way i.e., not done with stick switching of dual rates.

I'm seriously looking at the JR XG-11 and the Jeti DS-16, but can't find evidence in the manuals for either of these that they support this function in some way.

Anyone know of anything other than Futaba that support this feature? I've kinda grown used to it for F3A :-)

Cheers,

HS
Old 11-26-2012, 04:41 AM
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wattsup
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Default RE: Throttle to Rudder Rate mix

highside, I suggest you look at the Airtronics SD-10G unit. It has everything you are looking for at a competitive price. Regards, Everette
Old 11-26-2012, 05:08 AM
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Default RE: Throttle to Rudder Rate mix

Misread the question
Old 11-26-2012, 05:30 AM
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Default RE: Throttle to Rudder Rate mix

Chip, you may be right. It may be a function that I'm not familiar with. Everette
Old 11-26-2012, 08:01 AM
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highside
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Default RE: Throttle to Rudder Rate mix

Hey Everette,

I did have a look at the SD10 but again couldn't see an obvious (or even sneaky) way of doing it from the manual. Shame, it looks like a very cost effective system otherwise.

HS
Old 11-26-2012, 08:43 AM
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Default RE: Throttle to Rudder Rate mix

.
Old 11-26-2012, 09:23 AM
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Default RE: Throttle to Rudder Rate mix


ORIGINAL: highside
One feature I'm struggling to find is the rate control mix supported by the Futaba Z and MZ series i.e., a mix that allows you to control the rate (travel) of one function from another in a continuously variable way i.e., not done with stick switching of dual rates.
I don't see a way to directly vary the AFR rate of a control continously through a second control on a 12Z. You can vary the mix rate by use of a third control function and could use that.
One possibility I can think of but haven't tried for a variable rate rudder is to do a rudder to rudder mix and then use the fine tuning input based on throttle to vary the net AFR rate. Is that what you are doing? I believe you could do that on a Hitec aurora as well.

John

Old 11-26-2012, 09:46 AM
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Default RE: Throttle to Rudder Rate mix

I am not sure I understand the question correctly. Would this be like controlling the sensitivity of one channel (say Rudder) with the input of another channel (say Throttle) - where the more (or less) throttle you input, the less sensitive the rudder becomes?

I have the SD10G; it can do A LOT. I would be surprised if we can't find a way to make it happen. If not, the radio is upgradeable so you can make a request for the feature and hopefully it will get created and you can download it.

I am wondering about the VR (variable rate) function - the manual says it works for AUX and Flap channels, but not sure if you can program other channels in there. Or, maybe you can mix the VR lever/knob to throttle, and mix rudder to VR. Unfortunately my radio was moved into storage yesterday so I can't play with this for you [&o]
Old 11-26-2012, 10:27 AM
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highside
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Default RE: Throttle to Rudder Rate mix

OK, sorry for the confusion.

The feature I require is to adjust the Rudder Rate (or AFR, travel, sensitivity or other loosely equivalent term) as a function of the throttle position. Ideally this needs to be via a curve rather than being constrained to be linear. For F3A, the use is to progressively reduce the rudder travel as the throttle is opened. It takes a bit of setting up to get it right but it really makes a difference in integrated rolling manouvres and rolling circles, especially when it is blowing a gale and upwind and downwind airspeeds are significantly different. As a an additional advantage it can be used to give full rudder travel at idle for stall turns and spins - I know some people use a switch for this.

On the 9Z, you can do this using the Rate Control programmable mix (CTL), p.66 of the manual. From memory this provides a five point curve for the feature (might be 7).

I'm not familiar with the other Z's and the 14MZ and 18MZ, but I know other pilots doing it on the MZ's. The manuals for these do not mention a CTL mix type, but I assume there is another method - possibly the VTR mix type, but it is hard to tell from the manuals. As for JR/Jeti/Hitec/Spektrum/Airtronic I also can't find anything obvious in the manuals, hence the question

HS
Old 11-26-2012, 11:30 AM
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Default RE: Throttle to Rudder Rate mix

I asked in the Airtronics support forum if this can be done on the SD10G. I think it makes sense to have the question in both forums as this thread is not Airtronics specific.

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/tt.asp?forumid=516

In the meantime, I will look more at my manual and see if I can come up with something.
Old 11-26-2012, 12:07 PM
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Default RE: Throttle to Rudder Rate mix

Pretty sure this would be easily doable on my Spektrum DX-10t and therefore on a DX-18 or DX-18QQ as well. I'll check tonight.
Old 11-26-2012, 02:07 PM
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highside
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Default RE: Throttle to Rudder Rate mix

Thanks Guys.

Seeing as Joe's post has alerted me to the equipment support boards, I'll also go ask there too.
Old 11-26-2012, 03:32 PM
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Default RE: Throttle to Rudder Rate mix

It's a shame that competition in general has been reduced from who has the best talent to who has the best computers. 
Old 11-26-2012, 04:57 PM
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Default RE: Throttle to Rudder Rate mix


ORIGINAL: rgburrill

It's a shame that competition in general has been reduced from who has the best talent to who has the best computers.
I think the best pilots are still winning.
Old 11-26-2012, 05:17 PM
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Default RE: Throttle to Rudder Rate mix


ORIGINAL: gaRCfield


ORIGINAL: rgburrill

It's a shame that competition in general has been reduced from who has the best talent to who has the best computers.
I think the best pilots are still winning.
Agreed, the top guys are the ones with the most talent AND make use of any and all advantages available to them.

Old 11-27-2012, 12:24 AM
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highside
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Default RE: Throttle to Rudder Rate mix

ORIGINAL: rgburrill

It's a shame that competition in general has been reduced from who has the best talent to who has the best computers.
To those out there who are good at F3A, undoubtedly talented on the sticks, know how to aerodynamically trim an F3A model before adding computer radio tweaks, have the psychological make-up to fly well in front of the judges, make big sacrifices to practice and practice and practice - I don't subscribe to the above opinion.
Old 11-27-2012, 03:24 PM
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Default RE: Throttle to Rudder Rate mix


ORIGINAL: rgburrill

It's a shame that competition in general has been reduced from who has the best talent to who has the best computers.
If that function is/was in a Futaba 9 ZAP then that so called "best computers" has been around for the last 20 years, back when we had a 10cc two-stroke 20cc four stroke limits.

Might be worth giving such a mix a go??
Old 11-28-2012, 04:35 AM
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highside
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Default RE: Throttle to Rudder Rate mix

So, my conclusion so far is that the Futaba 9Z appears to be the only Tx that supports this feature. (Certainly the only on for which I have evidence of it being supported.)

I have spoken with 2 MZ owners whom I thought were doing this, but it transpires they are using one or more stick position triggers to adjust rates in discrete steps. This is supported on pretty much all of the high-end Txs I have looked at.

Thanks for all the input,

HS

EDIT:
My conclusion is wrong - see below [X(]
Old 11-28-2012, 07:30 AM
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Default RE: Throttle to Rudder Rate mix



The only way I can see doing what you want on a JR 12X is to approximate it with a step-wise curve. The curve can be generated with a group of program mixes using either stick position switches or the throttle stick position as the switch. Using the throttle stick position gives more steps as it is available in each program mix whereas 12X has only four stick position switches. The disadvantage of using the throttle position is that it cannot be turned off. It cannot be AND with another switch like the stick position switches.



Allan

Old 11-28-2012, 11:24 AM
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Default RE: Throttle to Rudder Rate mix

The response in the Airtronics forum is that the SD10G does not support this; however I believe you can get there, or close, with mixes as suggested above. I wish I had my radio on hand and could play with the VR switches/levers.
Old 11-28-2012, 12:50 PM
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Default RE: Throttle to Rudder Rate mix

Joe, please do me and a few others a favor and try to get your hands on an SD10G transmitter. I still have a feeling it can be done! Your efforts would be greatly appreciated and hopefully all of us Airtronics types would be rewarded. Thanks in advance, Everette
Old 11-28-2012, 01:32 PM
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Default RE: Throttle to Rudder Rate mix

Hi 'Side.

If I understand your question properly, you can do it on the Futaba 12FG, so I am pretty sure you can do it on the 12Z, 14MZ, and the 18MZ.

What I did... I mixed Rudder to an AUX channel (Rud->Rud as noted above did not seem to work... Rud->AUX does), and set the Fine Tuning control to the throttle (J3), and set the Fine Tune as a LIN.

Using the AUX channel as the Rudder, the range of the AUX channel varies proportionally to the throttle stick - such that I have full Rudder (AUX) throws at full rudder stick when the throttle is at idle, 50% throw at 100% rudder stick at mid throttle, and barely any rudder throw at 100% rudder stick at high throttle. Of course, you can add separate Rudder and AUX AFR curves to produce some very fine-tuned results.

Note that you will need to tie the actual rudder servo to the AUX channel. Any other mixes that slave the normal rudder channel can be linked through to the AUX channel. Or you can also block the link-throughs on a per mix basis.

Also, if you wanted to keep the Rudder on the actual rudder channel, you can set the Rudder stick (J4) to control the AUX channel (or virtual channel) and then do an AUX->Rud mix. Just remember to disable the J4 control from the actual rudder channel. There's probably a couple more ways to do this in the 12FG.

Finally, if you want to turn this feature off, simply assign a condition to the above that reverts it back to normal mode. Note that you can't simply turn off the mix, as you'd lose your rudder control. Controlling it with a condition switch means that you will always have rudder control - either "normal" or rate-variable.


r/s ... Roger Parrett / Dayton / OH
Old 11-28-2012, 01:54 PM
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highside
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Default RE: Throttle to Rudder Rate mix

Nice one! There is clearly a route there, and I'm sure you could make it nonlinear by some additional fudging e.g., putting a curve mix from throttle to a spare channel then using that as the VR control channel?

You've also alerted me to the fact that there is quite a lot of useful information at the back of the (online) Futaba manuals (the stick-as-a-switch configuration is pretty flexible too I discover).

As an aside, I have just re-read the Jeti DC-16 manual from cover to cover and found this sentence buried in the section on mixes: "By selecting “Switch” and by editing the desired assignment you can activate and choose the position at which this Switch/Knob/Stick or Logical Switch will turn the mix ON or OFF or even control its throw proportionally." So a similar possibility there I suspect.
Old 11-28-2012, 02:03 PM
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Default RE: Throttle to Rudder Rate mix

The Futaba 12FG is extremely flexible. And yes, you can add non-linear responses via different expo curves or 17 point curves. You can also use the "virtual" channels if you want to do some fancy intermediate mix processing without wasting a channnel that will phyically attach to a servo - the 12FG has four of these types of channels.

You can even switch the conditions based on the throttle position, so you'd only go into VR mode once the throttle got above, say, 50% - and below that, you could still have the rudder go into high rates at idle for stall turns, etc.
Old 11-28-2012, 03:28 PM
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Default RE: Throttle to Rudder Rate mix

No, it's pretty much stuck as a linear adjustment of rate as you can't (or I can't) assign a channel or virtual channel to the fine tune of the mixing rate. I can only assign a hardware input.

On the 14MZ the Rud-Rud mix works, and I didn't have to mix it to an AUX.

Having never owned a 9ZAP, it seems like it would b a really nifty thing to have, but I suppose in their wisdom Futaba dropped it thinking conditions and delays between conditions would more than cover it. I've never used delays between conditions as I experienced some weird servo twitches last time I tried setting delays (many software updates ago), maybe it's sorted now??

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