Shui

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More shots -

One of my favorite pics - Dave Stoddart (Jason's caller) showing Benoit Paysant LeRoux how its done in the islands!


Dave should know by now, my brother will mess up any photo opp possible!




Jason, Roland and Wolfgang chumming it up after the contest.

Shui

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Acrobat

thanks for the screw paris hilton

Shui

My Feedback: (2)

a few more pics -

1 of me surprising him (talk about deer in the headlights expression!!! LOL)

1 of Rainer Hacker's giant electric Katana

mikenet76

A lot of pics here:

http://www.alevilla.it/f3a/index.html

bye.
Mike.

papaone

Hi
picture of USA planes

JorgeB

I'dont read all post. Sorry if this link all ready exist!
http://www.club-newbery.com.ar/home.htm
Is home Club newbery, where in next F3A World Championships 2007!!
Check pictures informe 3 informe 4 informe 5 and
http://www.club-newbery.com.ar/image...cia/index.html

piotrekpepe

400 photos form World Championship in France!!!
Check: www.swiderek-f3a.prv.pl

Piotr Swiderek
www.swiderek-f3a.prv.pl

Team Finland

Hello once again!

Team Finland has now updated the last reamaining pictures to their WC 2005 pages:
[link]http://users.tkk.fi/~jkarppin/f3a/wc2005/index.html[/link]

BR
Raimo

Passport1

My Feedback: (8)

I have thought long and hard about making this post but have decided to share just a few things (FACTS) that RANDOMLY happened to us while in France.

1. Random draw CPLR flew one behind me in the Qualifying. Then with another Random Draw he flw right behind me in all 4 Finals rounds, we never rotated apart. (The random Draw was the CD and a Witness behind closed does)

2. Jason managed to be randomly drawn to lead off rounds 4,6,9 (3 out of 10 not bad)

3. Finals round 1 flying scandalous I scored a 536.92 placing 3rd and then being dropped 23 normalized points to 4th 17 behind Roland. Roland had a average of 525.00 to start with. That movement is not possible as I did not a a judge that was high on my sheets, they were all within a couple percent.

4. I Flew Scandalous Beating Roland by 2 points in the unknown average, and fell just a little further behind after TBL.

5. I flew Genesis in the second round of the F Sequence and it was the first time I flew that model through the entire sequence. keep in mind there were 20 judges in three groups that saw 17 Manuevers with a combined K of 67. I scored that round a 536.92 exactley the same as the one before flown with scandalous

6. It is true that Naruke early on at least scored Onda and the other Japanese close to 100 points average higher the the other 4 judges that were with him. TBL did not change there scores.

7. The judges are not picked from all around the world like Troy seems to think by any means, they are picked by the Contest director from a very large pool that was submitted to them by Bob Skinner. This is who we had from around the world. 16 European Judges 14 french speaking 2 German, 1 Australian, 1 American, 1 Canadian, and 1 from Argentina. None of the judges that gave CPLR a zero in Poland or anywhere else were judging this time as they had been removed. They were there however talking very freely about what they had been told by the CD upon removal and Bob Skinner confirmed it to be true.

8. I asked Bob Skinner after seeing that the TBL program had been modified, apparently by the CD's brother, requested that we enter my scores under the CPLR name his pilot number and list the country as France just so we could all see there was no funny business. Seemed simple enough, but they dissappeared and never returned. That was four my round 4 qualifing flight that was the best I could fly. The judges saw it as something like a 575 average and CPLR a 594 and Onda was like a 560. That was the round Onda normalized a 991 CPLR 1000 and I had my best round with a 965. 1 point did not make that difference, like indicated in Troys answer it would take about 18 average points which is 35 normalized. and thats huge.

Now with this all said CPLR is a great champion and a good friend that deserved to win, however he will be the first to say not every round. The Japanese are a strong team and even through I believe inside we were better they are the champions for now and great ones at that.

Its over now and now we can all start thinking about Arg. in a couple of years. Hopefully we can clarify a few things to avoid some of these situations and make the 07 Worlds one we can all be proud of.
I would like to give a special thanks to a great caller that didn't miss a beat (Trent Byrd) as well as to the sponsors that provided equipment that worked flawlessly. (Hacker, Airtronics,Thunderpower, Aeromodel, Zap, CA Models, Hyde Mounts, Kirbys custom vinyl, Truturn, and APC) Thank you!!!

Chip

Angus Balfour

Chip, this happened all the way through the field, even to me who finished a "lowly" seventeenth. On flight four of prelims I got a 523 and Bill Bloodworth got a 514. After tbl I got a 892 and he a 905!! I to questioned what had happened but for you to imply that there was wrong doing by the French organisers against you I find very hard to believe.

I don't know if this is the case, but I will take your word on it. In Poland the judges were issuing zeros left, right and centre, this year they were much more lenient. However, I believe that CPLR's snaps were legal and would have been awarded marks no matter where the judges came from. A lot of pilots this year got away Scot free on snaps that were nowhere near legal. I think this bumped a few of the lower placed pilots up but I don't think this affected any of the top pilots, as all their snaps were legal IMO.

From I spectators point of view watching the finals I believe the judges got the top ten placings bang on. I also think they got the team places right as well (just my opinion of course).

Anyway, as you say, it is over now and time to start focussing ahead to Argentina.

Well done on your and your teams result, the three of you flew great and (I hope) are happy with your fantastic achievement.

Angus

mups53

My Feedback: (41)

Hey Chip did you honestly think that you were on a level playing field over there? Look at what they are saying about Lance Armstrong. The most tested athlete in the history of man. A cancer survivor. Winner 6 times in a row. OF A RACE! Not a judged event. Leaves one shaking his head. Thanks for the insite. We needed to hear it. Mike

wvr

Its not so good to hear that the organisation that runs the WC is allowed to select the judges themself. I had thought that because this is a WC the FAI would supply a list with the judges to be invided. I can imagine that money (trafelcost) is one reason to have as many 'local' judges as was discribed.

But still, I would think that for this kind of high level competition the FAI and organizer of a WC wouldn't take any change in getting 'rumors' about judges being in favor of a certain pilot or country.

One other thing I notices is that TBL and the fact that scores are expressed in 1000% are mentioned as being the same. This is not the case.

The TBL calculations are there to take care that judges that are far off with there scores compared to the other judges are compensated, both in positive and negative ways. This indeed will change the raw-points-score a bit, but at least you will get the points you diserve.

The 1000% trick is much more frustrating (the need for it, because one round is over multiple days is a different story). But the fact that one pilot's score is dependent on the score of a other pilot is not much fun.

I think it's good what Chip did, just write down what you feel, pointing out the things that feel strange, and maybe the FAI will listen and make changes for the next WC.

I have seen the semi-finals and finals. And although there can be only one pilot being the WC, all pilot's that flew those days where a big inspiration for me.

Winfried

Gregg G

My Feedback: (7)

I hope Don Ramsey posts some thoughts

johnp1

If I were French I would be pretty ticked off right now. Sound like sour grapes to me...........

mups53

My Feedback: (41)

Sour grapes? Everyone has an opinion. This is a forum. It's good to hear all the sides. Mike

Angus Balfour

The judges put forward by Bob Skinner will of been deemed good enough to judge at a WC i.e. award the right marks, be consistent but above all fair. Surely it wouldn't matter what judges were picked from this group even if the French did select the ones they wanted for whatever reason.

Bob Skinner is not the type of man who would let something such as you are implying (picking of judges to favour the French) slip by unnoticed. If he thought there was any foul play at all I can guarantee everyone he would have stopped it right there and then. Bob Skinner was obviously happy with the judges selected and the way the comp was run. He was also obviously happy with the placings of individual competitors and teams after the prelims and the placings after the semis and finals as he signed the rank order sheet!

There will always be competitors who feel hard done by, myself included, many times. That is the nature of the beast. But what you guys are saying basically is that USA should of won the team category and your team members should of placed higher. Well I can assure everyone here that the overwhelming feeling at the WC between both competitors and spectators alike was that the judges got it right.

Angus (Number 17 individual, Number 9 in team category and fully satisfied with the result)

johnp1

Angus,
I agree totally, the organisers pick the judges from the list and then submit their choices to Bob Skinner who must then sign it off.

Chip, I dont know where you got the idea that 14 of the judges speak French, just because we are oversea's does not mean we all speak the same language...Please share with us how you came to the conclusion that 14 speak french???



Johnp1

Troy Newman

FAI Judges for the worlds are not secret.

They are listed on the Worlds Website

http://www.world-championships-f3a.com/

go to: Organization Team and then click judges

Their credentials are there for all to see. My opinion is on paper the list is impressive and they seem very qualified. I was not in attendance and don't comment on their results. I do feel that if any funny business was going on it would be hard to hide it from the world forum. I would hope there was none.

Argentina
Australia
Austria
BELGIUM
Canada
China
Czech Republic
Denmark
France
Germany
Ireland
Italy
Japan
Norway
Poland
Portugal
Sweden
Switzerland
Ukraine
United States

Alternate Judge

United Kingdom



I'm not making any judgements on the quality of any of the judges but it looks to me like a good representation. Yes it is a little European dominated but the event was dominated by European pilots as well. Meaning there were more european pilots in attendance than other areas. Europe has lots of little countries. Each Country can send one 3 man team. If you are Belgium or Lichtenstein then your country is very small and perhaps only has a handful of pilots. Even though top pilots may be within just a few hundred miles of each other in Europe, We in the USA have thousands of miles to cover. Each area has their top pilots. Right now seems like AZ is swelling with them. Since the entire USA team lives in AZ. We in the USA have lots of pilots that could be considered in the top 20 or 30. I'm sure Japan is the same way many many pilots that could represent their country well. But only 3 pilots are allowed.

It has been held in Europe the last 3 times and has only been out of Europe a couple of times in the last many years. It has left Europe 3 times since and including 1991.

91 Australia Chip Hyde
93 Austria Hanno Prettner
95 Japan Naruke
97 Poland Naruke
99 USA CPLR
01 Ireland CPLR
03 Poland CPLR
05 France CPLR

Not Bashing Europe I'm just pointing out this seems to be where the game is played! Perhaps someone in the USA would come forward to host and run another event.

flywilly

My Feedback: (121)

Disregarding the implications, I think it could have been very informative had Chip's request been honored. To the positive or the contrary. Of course somebody could undertake the tedious task of analyzing all the raw scores (assuming they're still available).
If you want true objectivity have the competitors fly the same design provided by the hosts while keeping the pilots anonymous to the judges. Not likely to happen. If the Worlds were hosted by the USA who also provided the majority of the judges and Chip and the team won would the Europeans be screaming? Just a rhetorical question... If that scenario ever happened I'd like to believe we could be fair and objective.
I haven't attended a WC in several years, but I would prefer not to judge... differentiating the top 10 or so pilots is very difficult.

Congratulations to all participants of the 2005 FAI WC - your perseverance and dedication are applauded!!

johnp1

Guys,
Just picking up again on the 14 french speaking judges, please see below what actually occured

Argentina No
Australia English
Austria German
BELGIUM FLemish, German French (Some regions only)
Canada English, French (again some regions only, plus their your neighbours !!!)
China No
Czech Republic No
Denmark No
France Of course
Germany German
Ireland English (thanks to us)
Italy Italian,
Japan Japanese
Norway No
Poland No
Portugal No
Sweden No
Switzerland German, French
Ukraine No
United States English, spanish, mexican, FRENCH (some regions)

Alternate Judge

United Kingdom English


To me, it looks like the English speaking countries are in the majority... Not trying to be a wiseass just stating relevant (FACTS)

JohnP!

Doug Cronkhite

My Feedback: (34)

As I said before.. there is somewhat of a conflict of interest when one of Japan's top pilots is being judged by his coach. I'm NOT saying Naruke intentionally gave higher scores to Onda.. but the bias, even subconcious IS there. There's no way he can be objective about it the same as someone with no vested interest.

The pilot draw for flight order should be done BY THE PILOTS, out in the open as is done in the full scale aerobatic world.

Jon Wold

The F3A community in any given country is so small and transparent it's hard to imagine that an accredited FAI f3A judge does not personally know each competitor from their own country. Naruke and Onda probably have a closer relationship than most but who knows which other pilots train together with an FAI judge? I would if I knew one. The only way to completely avoid such alledged biases would be to eliminate the possibility of a judge giving scores to his countryman.

stek79

As you said, these things can happen at every contest. In fact, TBL is there for this reason...

wvr

I don't think TBL rules out small favors (say 1pt per figure) of judges for a competitor, only the bigger differences are compensated.

Maybe it's an idea to invite a bit more judges, and if there is a pilot flying from the same country as a judge, do not use the judges his score.

In case that none of the judges are from the same country as the pilot, randomly drop of one the jusges his score.

My opinion is that although this is a sport that can not do without judges, every possibility that can cause a discussion about the judging should be avoided.
To do this, the rules have to be changed when issues appear , and we will learn while we are going.
The fact that the FAI/organizing are willing to look into complains/questions from pilots, and maybe propose changes for the future, will take care that both pilots and judges will keep on playing this game.

So I'm not saying that the judges in france where not upto there task, or that there where known situations about pilots being favored.


Winfried