zdz40FAI
03-02-2007, 12:11 AM
#51
Junior Member
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Richland,
WA
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: zdz40FAI
Well this is my first post to any list.
I recieved my ZDZ 40 RE F3A today and am putting it into an Areoslave Symphony. This plane has a very stiff structure while being very light. It is very large and the only problem found so far is the spark plug cap will not fit into the Chin cowel by about 1/4". I was hoping to not have to cut a hole in the cowel but must be done. Dick, I am interested mostly in the mounting of this motor. I have always used a soft mount and a nose ring. As you know there is no way to mount a nose ring so a soft mount will probably not work unless Hyde has one not requiring a nose ring. I have seen pictures of a DA50 mounted to one of his mounts.
I will be using an ES pipe but am also interested in your research as to propellor and pipe combinations. Looking forward to hearing more.
Dennis
I recieved my ZDZ 40 RE F3A today and am putting it into an Areoslave Symphony. This plane has a very stiff structure while being very light. It is very large and the only problem found so far is the spark plug cap will not fit into the Chin cowel by about 1/4". I was hoping to not have to cut a hole in the cowel but must be done. Dick, I am interested mostly in the mounting of this motor. I have always used a soft mount and a nose ring. As you know there is no way to mount a nose ring so a soft mount will probably not work unless Hyde has one not requiring a nose ring. I have seen pictures of a DA50 mounted to one of his mounts.
I will be using an ES pipe but am also interested in your research as to propellor and pipe combinations. Looking forward to hearing more.
Dennis
03-02-2007, 02:17 PM
#52
RE: zdz40FAI
Hi Dick,
I wonder what kind of header are you using in the test. Self-made or from a vendor? I plan to install the F3A on my Gas Pattern plane built out of a RCM plan pushblished a few years back.
By the way, I have a KS muffler (the one for up to 35CC engine) and have used it on a RCS 180 before. Its inlet's diameter is 21 mm. Do you thkink such a muffler will work with the F3A?
Thanks --qc
I wonder what kind of header are you using in the test. Self-made or from a vendor? I plan to install the F3A on my Gas Pattern plane built out of a RCM plan pushblished a few years back.
By the way, I have a KS muffler (the one for up to 35CC engine) and have used it on a RCS 180 before. Its inlet's diameter is 21 mm. Do you thkink such a muffler will work with the F3A?
Thanks --qc
03-05-2007, 12:27 AM
#54
Senior Member
Thread Starter
RE: zdz40FAI
the smaller exhaust system is not a good idea
so far the engine tests show best performance is using larger volume exhaust . your setup will run on th engine sure but we are seeing typically -on usable props - open stack (NO exhaust system ) to properly adjusted smooth throttle setups on pipes - about 600 rpm boost - thst is a good boost for a throttleable -non peaky setup.
The engine now goes into the ABBRA and I am plugging along on my scratch built -
Not sure what prop setup will be better - My money is on the 20x12 pitch which turns 7070 aprox static and is very smooth
the 22x12 is about a max load and the 20-21-x10 may be fine
but 8 " pitch stuf -is just plain old noisy.
this is a case of matching flying style / model / prop and pipe - there is no "best " setup.
so far the engine tests show best performance is using larger volume exhaust . your setup will run on th engine sure but we are seeing typically -on usable props - open stack (NO exhaust system ) to properly adjusted smooth throttle setups on pipes - about 600 rpm boost - thst is a good boost for a throttleable -non peaky setup.
The engine now goes into the ABBRA and I am plugging along on my scratch built -
Not sure what prop setup will be better - My money is on the 20x12 pitch which turns 7070 aprox static and is very smooth
the 22x12 is about a max load and the 20-21-x10 may be fine
but 8 " pitch stuf -is just plain old noisy.
this is a case of matching flying style / model / prop and pipe - there is no "best " setup.
03-08-2007, 01:26 AM
#55
Junior Member
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Tujunga,
CA
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: zdz40FAI
Hi Dick,
Any further results from your flight testing the ZDZ F3A? I am seriously considering this gas engine for my next pattern plane and any further info from your flight testing with this engine is greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Any further results from your flight testing the ZDZ F3A? I am seriously considering this gas engine for my next pattern plane and any further info from your flight testing with this engine is greatly appreciated.
Thanks
03-08-2007, 08:29 PM
#56
Senior Member
Thread Starter
RE: zdz40FAI
been wurkin on the new airframe for the 40F3A- here it is so far -weight is at this point -about 16 oz
- the front gets a chin covering the engine (ala my EMC2) which is also a "pressure cowl setup which makes all airfrlowgo thru the cooling fins
the tall triangular turtledeck framing etc..will add more - looks like it will be 30 ozs with all the stringers diagonals etc. spinner is 3.75" a ESComposites fibre one -extremely lite all will be covered in Ultracote. cept chin cowl
The planked front top section is a constant curved section which is extremely stiff. The sides are 1/8" on forward section and 1/16" on rear section . spruce and hard balsa stringers are used . the small pic is the Petrel done in 2002 which was plenty strong and used same basic type construction ideas. It had the early 40 and weighed a hair over 11 lbs. It had larger wing 2mm this one is 74" and double taper.
- the front gets a chin covering the engine (ala my EMC2) which is also a "pressure cowl setup which makes all airfrlowgo thru the cooling fins
the tall triangular turtledeck framing etc..will add more - looks like it will be 30 ozs with all the stringers diagonals etc. spinner is 3.75" a ESComposites fibre one -extremely lite all will be covered in Ultracote. cept chin cowl
The planked front top section is a constant curved section which is extremely stiff. The sides are 1/8" on forward section and 1/16" on rear section . spruce and hard balsa stringers are used . the small pic is the Petrel done in 2002 which was plenty strong and used same basic type construction ideas. It had the early 40 and weighed a hair over 11 lbs. It had larger wing 2mm this one is 74" and double taper.
03-09-2007, 02:32 AM
#57
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Moss, NORWAY
Posts: 498
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: zdz40FAI
Dick,
Interesting design.
How do you reinforce the front/rear fuselage joints in your designs? (Are these sections just butt glued?)
Thanks,
Magne
Interesting design.
How do you reinforce the front/rear fuselage joints in your designs? (Are these sections just butt glued?)
Thanks,
Magne
03-09-2007, 07:29 AM
#58
Senior Member
Thread Starter
RE: zdz40FAI
There are top and bottom longerons . there is a 60mm long doubler on each joint and the entire area is fitted and clamped , using laminating epoxy to flow into all wood grain.
03-09-2007, 04:41 PM
#59
My Feedback: (121)
RE: zdz40FAI
Hi Dick,
I like the looks of the construction (I liked the look of the finished Petrel). The wing sounds pretty conventional compared to current designs (double taper - less span and wing area). Can't wait to see the finished product.
Thanks for sharing
Will B.
I like the looks of the construction (I liked the look of the finished Petrel). The wing sounds pretty conventional compared to current designs (double taper - less span and wing area). Can't wait to see the finished product.
Thanks for sharing
Will B.
03-09-2007, 05:15 PM
#60
Senior Member
Thread Starter
RE: zdz40FAI
yes wing/ stab pretty conventional -lower aspect ratio tho on wing -
more like the latest small electric pattern/3D whatevers
I have been flying the BLING -which is really different on the wing layout and it works extremely well but the look is a bit much for many --so -- a compromise -
more like the latest small electric pattern/3D whatevers
I have been flying the BLING -which is really different on the wing layout and it works extremely well but the look is a bit much for many --so -- a compromise -
03-10-2007, 09:19 PM
#61
Senior Member
Thread Starter
RE: zdz40FAI
Back to the gripping saga of the 40 F3A ZDZ
Today we ran it in the ABBRA model
If you have seen this design-- it is a very thin shell all fibreglass (composite) type which is quite thin walled and -with this engine , weighs about 10.5+ lbs .
It resonates like a Flamenco guitar. I plinked my fingers all over the model whilst it was running and at 3300 everthing has a buzz to it . I would expect to feel a buzz even with a electric motor .
Anyway- we fired it up on a 20x10 Skorepa prop and ran it up and down the power band a number of times (did NOT fly it )
the model viewed from say 10 ft is quiet and no visible dancing of ailerons or fuselage but there is a fine blurr at the rudder top at 3300rpm.
all in all very good - this is a solidly mounted engine -the bolts are in well nuts but no wobbly mount. no visible engine shake -ever. Try that with your big fourstroker .
compared against the ZDZ40RE the difference is very obvious -to put it mildly.
Now it's fly it time -just waiting on weather conditions
My new model is all wood and foam core flying surfaces -which I expect will soak up minor vibes more easily.
Say tuned for the next exciting adventure --
Today we ran it in the ABBRA model
If you have seen this design-- it is a very thin shell all fibreglass (composite) type which is quite thin walled and -with this engine , weighs about 10.5+ lbs .
It resonates like a Flamenco guitar. I plinked my fingers all over the model whilst it was running and at 3300 everthing has a buzz to it . I would expect to feel a buzz even with a electric motor .
Anyway- we fired it up on a 20x10 Skorepa prop and ran it up and down the power band a number of times (did NOT fly it )
the model viewed from say 10 ft is quiet and no visible dancing of ailerons or fuselage but there is a fine blurr at the rudder top at 3300rpm.
all in all very good - this is a solidly mounted engine -the bolts are in well nuts but no wobbly mount. no visible engine shake -ever. Try that with your big fourstroker .
compared against the ZDZ40RE the difference is very obvious -to put it mildly.
Now it's fly it time -just waiting on weather conditions
My new model is all wood and foam core flying surfaces -which I expect will soak up minor vibes more easily.
Say tuned for the next exciting adventure --
03-11-2007, 05:29 PM
#62
My Feedback: (1)
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: SevenoaksKent, UNITED KINGDOM
Posts: 5,193
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: zdz40FAI
Dick, Great news. This engine is sounding very promising for my Integral due later this week.
Please continue with the updates!
Rgds,
Mark
Please continue with the updates!
Rgds,
Mark
03-14-2007, 06:23 PM
#64
Senior Member
Thread Starter
RE: zdz40FAI
flying this weekend --
the wooden model now has fuselage almost assembled -cowl block ready to glass and wing tube installed in panels
I am slow -- the last one of these I did in a week but I have to stay off my screwed up leg for the moment.
model is coming as planned
Ed hates it - I like it - so it is good!
the wooden model now has fuselage almost assembled -cowl block ready to glass and wing tube installed in panels
I am slow -- the last one of these I did in a week but I have to stay off my screwed up leg for the moment.
model is coming as planned
Ed hates it - I like it - so it is good!
03-18-2007, 03:28 PM
#67
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Victoria,
MN
Posts: 3,934
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: zdz40FAI
Looked at the integral from CompARF. Nice. I also got just caught up in the look of the Tucano w/turbo prop.... That is a real involved setup! Lots of carbon fiber and specific made components in that plane..... I guess you get what you pay for!
I have looked at aeroslave pattern planes and they are very well built and very affordable. The Symphony is nice.
Please let me know how that install goes schroedm.
http://home.comcast.net/~aeroslave/index.htm
I have looked at aeroslave pattern planes and they are very well built and very affordable. The Symphony is nice.
Please let me know how that install goes schroedm.
http://home.comcast.net/~aeroslave/index.htm
ORIGINAL: schroedm
Hi Dick,
Looking forward to your results as my Comp-ARF Integral arrives in a couple of weeks and I'd really like to go for this engine in it.
Would be very interested to hear how much it shakes and knocks compared to the YS140/160s??
Thanks,
Mark
Hi Dick,
Looking forward to your results as my Comp-ARF Integral arrives in a couple of weeks and I'd really like to go for this engine in it.
Would be very interested to hear how much it shakes and knocks compared to the YS140/160s??
Thanks,
Mark
03-21-2007, 08:40 AM
#69
Senior Member
Thread Starter
RE: zdz40FAI
The engine works very well in the air - easy to start and lots of power .
The model used tho, was noisy as hell and the rattles have to be fixed before any realistic sound tests .
I did break out my old Radio Shack sound meter and see that it was still working properly - the pipe noise was not detectible over the airframe noise - prop noise at full power tho could be heard .
I am guessing a well done, wood airframe will be more quiet than the super light composite ones .
The guys selling all glass stuff wil likely say no about this -but that is my take on it anyway.
all glass on electric is nice but prices can be--pretty dear.
The model used tho, was noisy as hell and the rattles have to be fixed before any realistic sound tests .
I did break out my old Radio Shack sound meter and see that it was still working properly - the pipe noise was not detectible over the airframe noise - prop noise at full power tho could be heard .
I am guessing a well done, wood airframe will be more quiet than the super light composite ones .
The guys selling all glass stuff wil likely say no about this -but that is my take on it anyway.
all glass on electric is nice but prices can be--pretty dear.
03-21-2007, 02:12 PM
#71
Senior Member
Thread Starter
RE: zdz40FAI
this particular setup is a 7/8' dia header 12" long on a ESComposites pipe for 40cc engine.
I have run the JMB 60 can with a 4" long home made header and it works very well - just less power .
I have run the JMB 60 can with a 4" long home made header and it works very well - just less power .
03-21-2007, 03:37 PM
#73
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Oslo, NORWAY
Posts: 1,579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: zdz40FAI
ORIGINAL: dick Hanson
The model used tho, was noisy as hell and the rattles have to be fixed before any realistic sound tests .
I did break out my old Radio Shack sound meter and see that it was still working properly - the pipe noise was not detectible over the airframe noise - prop noise at full power tho could be heard .
I am guessing a well done, wood airframe will be more quiet than the super light composite ones .
The guys selling all glass stuff wil likely say no about this -but that is my take on it anyway.
all glass on electric is nice but prices can be--pretty dear.
The model used tho, was noisy as hell and the rattles have to be fixed before any realistic sound tests .
I did break out my old Radio Shack sound meter and see that it was still working properly - the pipe noise was not detectible over the airframe noise - prop noise at full power tho could be heard .
I am guessing a well done, wood airframe will be more quiet than the super light composite ones .
The guys selling all glass stuff wil likely say no about this -but that is my take on it anyway.
all glass on electric is nice but prices can be--pretty dear.
Don't get me wrong, I'm interested in an decent gass engine that could be used in a F3A model.
My problem is and continues to be that somebody, (an importer or distributor no doubt) branded this engine specifically F3A which is most certainly isn't.
Yes it and several other engines can be strapped to a F3A model with varing results, yet that doesn't make it a dedicated F3A engine which the importers of this engine are (deliberately or not) trying to mislead people. When I buy a F3A engine I don't expect to have to experiment or modify it to forefill the roll I was mislead into believing it was design to fore fil. If it's noisey why? If the engine wasn't designed around any specific pipe system that deliver the type of power we want and meets FAI noise standards why? Why should I or anyone else have to experiment? If it shakes which of course it will, why hasn't any specific soft mount design been incorporated into the design? What should I have to find out how this is best accomplished? The are many questions here and the answer is obvious.
This is nothing other than a lighten version of the previous engine. For which the manufactures should be congratulated!
Listen, I'm not negative to this engine, I have A ZDZ 40... its great as gass engines go. This being lighter is only a good thing.
I'm not against what you're doing Dick, good luck, I hope it work out well as I'm in the market.
What Im bothered with the the "F3A" hype and branding which appears nothing other than an attempt by the importers to drum up business.
03-21-2007, 04:47 PM
#74
RE: zdz40FAI
ORIGINAL: dick Hanson
I have been flying the BLING -which is really different on the wing layout and it works extremely well but the look is a bit much for many --so -- a compromise -
I have been flying the BLING -which is really different on the wing layout and it works extremely well but the look is a bit much for many --so -- a compromise -
Just curious why you say the looks of the Bling are a bit much for many? It looks like a lot of other ARF's to me, low aspect ratio wing, big control surfaces as you expect on a 3D plane. Maybe not as elegant as some 2M planes, but easy, simple lines to build... Or maybe that's just me?
The 40% Cassutt Racer I have been drawing up is almost identical in size to the Bling, would it be too much as well? Or is a scale aircraft OK like that?
Just wondering, that's all...
Mark
03-21-2007, 05:14 PM
#75
Senior Member
Thread Starter
RE: zdz40FAI
ORIGINAL: bla bla
So whats you're saying is that the engine isn't necessarily suited to F3A.
Don't get me wrong, I'm interested in an decent gass engine that could be used in a F3A model.
My problem is and continues to be that somebody, (an importer or distributor no doubt) branded this engine specifically F3A which is most certainly isn't.
Yes it and several other engines can be strapped to a F3A model with varing results, yet that doesn't make it a dedicated F3A engine which the importers of this engine are (deliberately or not) trying to mislead people. When I buy a F3A engine I don't expect to have to experiment or modify it to forefill the roll I was mislead into believing it was design to fore fil. If it's noisey why? If the engine wasn't designed around any specific pipe system that deliver the type of power we want and meets FAI noise standards why? Why should I or anyone else have to experiment? If it shakes which of course it will, why hasn't any specific soft mount design been incorporated into the design? What should I have to find out how this is best accomplished? The are many questions here and the answer is obvious.
This is nothing other than a lighten version of the previous engine. For which the manufactures should be congratulated!
Listen, I'm not negative to this engine, I have A ZDZ 40... its great as gass engines go. This being lighter is only a good thing.
I'm not against what you're doing Dick, good luck, I hope it work out well as I'm in the market.
What Im bothered with the the "F3A" hype and branding which appears nothing other than an attempt by the importers to drum up business.
ORIGINAL: dick Hanson
The model used tho, was noisy as hell and the rattles have to be fixed before any realistic sound tests .
I did break out my old Radio Shack sound meter and see that it was still working properly - the pipe noise was not detectible over the airframe noise - prop noise at full power tho could be heard .
I am guessing a well done, wood airframe will be more quiet than the super light composite ones .
The guys selling all glass stuff wil likely say no about this -but that is my take on it anyway.
all glass on electric is nice but prices can be--pretty dear.
The model used tho, was noisy as hell and the rattles have to be fixed before any realistic sound tests .
I did break out my old Radio Shack sound meter and see that it was still working properly - the pipe noise was not detectible over the airframe noise - prop noise at full power tho could be heard .
I am guessing a well done, wood airframe will be more quiet than the super light composite ones .
The guys selling all glass stuff wil likely say no about this -but that is my take on it anyway.
all glass on electric is nice but prices can be--pretty dear.
Don't get me wrong, I'm interested in an decent gass engine that could be used in a F3A model.
My problem is and continues to be that somebody, (an importer or distributor no doubt) branded this engine specifically F3A which is most certainly isn't.
Yes it and several other engines can be strapped to a F3A model with varing results, yet that doesn't make it a dedicated F3A engine which the importers of this engine are (deliberately or not) trying to mislead people. When I buy a F3A engine I don't expect to have to experiment or modify it to forefill the roll I was mislead into believing it was design to fore fil. If it's noisey why? If the engine wasn't designed around any specific pipe system that deliver the type of power we want and meets FAI noise standards why? Why should I or anyone else have to experiment? If it shakes which of course it will, why hasn't any specific soft mount design been incorporated into the design? What should I have to find out how this is best accomplished? The are many questions here and the answer is obvious.
This is nothing other than a lighten version of the previous engine. For which the manufactures should be congratulated!
Listen, I'm not negative to this engine, I have A ZDZ 40... its great as gass engines go. This being lighter is only a good thing.
I'm not against what you're doing Dick, good luck, I hope it work out well as I'm in the market.
What Im bothered with the the "F3A" hype and branding which appears nothing other than an attempt by the importers to drum up business.
I did not say th ZDZ F3A was noisy I said the airframe was noisy -
If you don't like it don't use it
I think it is a terrific engine and am going to make a try for a good airframe to use it's best features.