Mastertech

My Feedback: (31)

TonyF brought a good point up in another thread and I think it deserves it's own thread to maintain the subject matter.

Is it time to do away with the weight limit in Pattern in the USA?

I think so and here's how I got there.

1. Engines. Current standard in Pattern is argueably the YS 1.70DZ. Add this to a header,mount and a muffler you've got over $1,000 spining the prop.

We could use engines costing 1/2 this much,

2. Air Frames, to make the current 11 pound limit takes care some expensive materials to make weight. Then the air frames are very fragile.

Given the amount of ARF's under 2x2 out there in the $300-$400 range powered by small gas engines we could have a complete air frame with engine for less than our current power plant!

3. I think the lower cost would allow more fliers to try pattern.

4. Why do we let FAI basically run our rules when it only affects 3 guys going to ONE contest EVERY OTHER year!


What do you guys think?

rcpattern

My Feedback: (45)

As I stated in the other thread. I would have to say no. Pattern is expensive because we let it be expensive. FAI is always going to set the standard as it is the top of the line. I think current choice a lot of CD's make allowing people to fly any AMA legal plane in sportsman is a step in the right direction, but after that, if you are going to fly pattern you are going to have to spend some money. When I first started flying pattern I was flying an Ultra Sport .60. The plane flew great, but i will admit, it was definitely intimidating flying Novice at the time and guys showing up with the latest and greatest equipment. I beat a lot of those planes, with my MUCH cheaper ultra sport with a 7UAP radio. Obviously the planes didn't make all the difference, but it took a few contests to get over the fact that guys were showing up with the top of the line stuff, even though they weren't beating me.

Everytime they change something that is supposed to lower the cost it never does. Planes will just start getting bigger. You'd start seeing MUCH larger bipes that still fit the 2 meter limit, but doing away with the weight limit would give them some room to really play with these. Even allowing the gas stuff in, how much cheaper is it really. You'd start seeing guys running DA-50's and such, which other than the cost per flight aren't that much cheaper. I really don't think getting rid of the weight limit will do what people hope it would. Pattern is always going to be expensive. It's probably a lot more expensive than it has to be as it is. There are cheaper options, running an OS 1.60 instead of the YS or electric setups. This is even cheaper than the smaller gas options. Building your own planes from kits, and we certainly don't "need" the radio's we fly. I personally fly a 14MZ and wouldn't trade it for anything. Tim, you fly a 12X and certainly don't "need" that for pattern. But we do it anyway. The Phoenix contest in '07 was a perfect example. I showed up on Tuesday with no plane. Rusty Dose offered me his Focus II that had never flown before he arrived in Phoenix. I flew the Focus the first 4 rounds of the contest and flew his brand new Oxai Zeque for the last 2 rounds, after a battery failure cost us the Focus. Two planes on opposite ends of the spectrum, and I won 2 rounds of the contest with each. The Zeque definitely flew a little better, but it is a much newer design and I would expect it to. Both planes however were definitely competitive, and that was a Masters contest with multiple guys who had made the finals the previous year at the NATS. You could EASILY be competitive in the lower classes with a Focus or some other cheaper ARF and an OS 1.60 setup. FAI is a different story. You need the best of the best in FAI and that is what drives the pattern community, but for the lower classes, we certainly spend more money than we really have to. Pattern guys like to stay on the front end of the curve for "toys"...I don't see that changing anytime soon. There are MUCH cheaper options available, if we choose to use them. You can totally outfit a Focus II, or some other ARF out there for a fraction of the cost of other options. Oxai's stuff is expensive, but it is excellent quality and they have a waiting list on their planes. I don't think lowering the cost of pattern is going to make numbers grow. IMAC's growth exploded a few years ago, and they were even more expensive than pattern.

Arch

Mastertech

My Feedback: (31)

Arch

The race was on when they did away with the engine size limit in Pattern. Suddenly we had more power by leaps and bounds and the airpanes grew in size because the engines could now pull them. We opened Pandoras box years ago, now we live with the consequences. I believe deleting the weight limit will have a positive affect on our sport. Yes it will allow more Bipes and I don't think that's a bad thing.

What if we installed a maximum wing area? What would that do?

What if we went to 12 pounds? 14 pounds?

IMAC seems to be a race to see how many servo's one can put on a single control surface.

LOL I see you beat me to the copy/paste

rcpattern

My Feedback: (45)

My argument is cheaper options are available, if we choose to use them. I think leaving the rules as they are forces the designers to do some creative thinking. But there are many options available for a fraction of the cost. For someone starting out, there are a LOT of 2, 3, 4, or 5 year old planes RTF for a fraction of the cost and they are definitely competitive in the lower classes. You are always going to need to spend a little more in the upper classes and thats true of any sport. I don't see the top golfers going to KMart and buying the cheapest set of clubs available. The tops guys are ALWAYS going to fly the best stuff they can get their hands on. That is true with anything. Pattern has never been cheap, and unfortunately it will never be cheap. There are perfectly good cheaper options available to anyone who wants to take advantage of them. There were a lot of Oxai models last year at the NATS with the top of the line stuff in them. That didn't mean they definitely made the finals. The options are there for people if they choose.

Arch

Mastertech

My Feedback: (31)

You're right of course, there are cheaper options out there. I also think if the weight limit were gone there would be an explosion of cheaper options out there as well as many more expensive options.

I guess we'll never have the numbers in our sport as the IMAC/ 3d will. Given Chip and QQ are both world champions in F3A you don't see thier respective companies selling F3A airplanes, they sell to the flip flop crowds as that's where the real money is.

rcpattern

My Feedback: (45)

I don't think that many companies would design purpose built pattern planes. I just don't see the market. There are a lot of crossover planes that are OK, but i just don't see the market getting that much bigger for pattern planes. There are some good options that are a little smaller than 2 meter. The Venus II, and some of the others, are very nice flying planes and you can set them up REALLY cheap, but you still just don't see a lot of them showing up at contests. I think pattern requires a competitive nature that not everyone has. People who want to fly pattern will fly pattern. Even with gas prices, contests seem to have had fairly good turnouts this year. Which tells you, cost isn't always what drives pattern flyers. I'm sure there have been some people who didn't travel, but that is true of all sports. Saving 400-500 on a plane, doesnt mean they will take that money and actually go to a contest. I don't know the numbers, but I would bet that Oxai is selling about the same number of their expensive 2 meter stuff as Piedmont is selling of the Focus II's. I'm sure others are buying the Focus Sport, but for the 2 meter stuff, people are still spending money...

mmattockx

Bingo. Pattern is a fringe activity because of the activity, not the cost. Many people find the practicing tedious and dull. And despite how hard it is to fly an accurate straight and level pass or perform a perfectly round loop, it just doesn't look as cool as hovering. Nature of the beast I think.

Where are you finding a 40cc+ gas engine that will cost $500 with a header and full quiet pipe? You cannot just use the el cheapo mufflers that come with the gassers because of the noise regs. The only way you will get a 40cc gas engine through that is with a full header/pipe combo and that costs $$.

BTW, I am with you, Tim. I would like to see changes made to the weight limit (my suggestion would be a slight increase to maybe 6kg or so), but I fear that Arch is correct in the end result. It is competition and a small number of people will always look for every advantage no matter the cost. Then everyone else sees that and feels like they must keep up. And the snowball starts rolling. The golf analogy is a good one, golfers are widget buyers the same as pattern people and spend ridiculous amounts on things that really aren't necessary. If you don't like the expense, it is possible to lower it. Just don't drink the koolaid and buy into the things that many think are necessary.


Mark

VooDoo bros

With the use of electric motors in pattern people are still building super light airframes to stay within the weight limit. I would suggest not to get rid of the weight limit but to increase it to 5.5kg maximum take off weight, this way the glow people have to go on the scales with a full tank of fuel. It would let in the petrol engines as well as give the electic people a little room to breathe.

Nathan King

No.

Paul_K

Or just increase the weigth limit for electrics to 5.2 kg or something like that. That would allow people in the lower classes to fly planes the same size as everyone else, without spending small fortunes just to get gadgets that weigths a few grams less.

As an example: The AXI 5330/F3A is a good low cost outrunner, but the weigth makes it hard to get under 5 kg. Same principle goes for LiPO batteries.

Just my opinion. Paul

Troy Newman

Sorry

tuny

In my opinion you can raise the limit all the way you want, but a lighter plane flies better, no rule will change that, so if anyone wants to fly any FAI sequence with a 6 or 7 Kg... let them try.

Bozarth

My Feedback: (15)

Deleted

macleote

F3A is formula one, all the new things are expensive but there is always a way to do pattern cheaper.

Why having an YS170dz ? 140rx, webra 160 have enough power. In france this year will be the developpment of the spark ignition on 2 and 4 stroke. Take back you old 140Dz(and why not your YS120SC), or your 2stroke and give it more power for few money with spark ignition.

Why having the last Oxai plane ? We find very good plane on the second hand market and guys who sold never earn money when they sell their planes. You can also make your own woody pattern plane very competitive.

Why keeping the weight limit ? be limits allows manufacturers to run their brains to bring the points of new technologies.

d_bodary

My Feedback: (85)

Leave the weight limit where it's at. The only thing raising the weight limit will do is make the planes even bigger and obsolete all the old equipment. Which once again costs everyone more money. One day someone will realize that everytime the rules change it costs someone more money.

gmohr

Honestly, I think the cost factor is just an expression of people's competetivness coming out. Pilots are trying to maximize the effectiness of the plane within the rules. Whatever the new rules are, you will see the same trend toward engineering the "best" solution possible. The best solution is always expensive.

Regards,
G

Enrique-F3A

In my opinion, leaving the weight limit at 5 Kgs. will keep forcing the manufacturers to improve their technologies developing new materials and manufacturing technics, mainly regarding the electric stuff. It is better to have lighter electric motors and batteries and lighter airframes too, this will not be achieved if the weight limit is raised, nobody will care, therefore the pattern stuff could become obsolete !!!

Kema

Keeping same rules from year to year actually makes planes better but also cheaper. There are multiple competitive plane choises under 1000$ class and they are getting better every year. Battery packs are also getting cheaper, engine prices are actually very deacent and there is also used planes available in many price categories. Only thing that seems to rise is the price of fuel. I guess if you buy example CARF Integral today, you can fly it at least four years and still leave it for a backup or a practise plane afterwards.

Raising the weight limit would lead to bigger glow engines and gas would not be competitive anyway. Bi-planes would come more common and I cant see the price drop there.

Mastertech

My Feedback: (31)

Arch,

Nats removed, have you ever been to a contest and had your airplane measured and weighed? In 25 years of flying I never have. Even at IMPAC they didn't bother to check anything but sound.

I submit that no one much cares at the local level, that is the vast majority of fliers out there. Most will never make a Nats run. Let a CD throw out a guy's airplane at a local contest due to weight and watch the fall out. It won't be pretty.

apereira

Changing the weight limit in the USA only, could atract more people but not that many, then , manufacturers will probably make new models but being the world a big market, the big manufacturers probably won't,and if changed , what everybody has will be old already, the FAI will not change the rules because representatives from all countries voted that way, it is not just because they said so.

The fact that someone can built a cheaper airplane does not necessarily mean it will win something, somebody else with the latest tecnology will have the advantage, cheap heavy airplanes can not perform sutil and big manouvers, sorry, that's reality.

The AMA has the power to change this rules without affecting the FAI class, and that is the reason for so many fliers being in AMA Pattern, but FAI in the US has being growing, and AMA rules will be the ones to change, and it could be good if they are done in a way that allows the cheapest airplanes flying in novice and work the limits up to Masters, to smooth the transition to FAI.

For gas engines, you can fly IMAC which is also ruled by IAC and FAI, but it has programs as nice as pattern, but again, the aircrafts are more expensive.

One of our friends has being flying with cheaper setups, CAmodel Eclipse, OS 160, Futaba S9C, etc, but even though he has tried everything, he is changing to current top of the line equipment, as the airplane can not perform as he would like in comparison to the more current setups.

So, to summarize, if you increase the weight, someone will have something better than you and beat you, if prices go down someone will still have something more expensive, and changing the rules not always work in the way the mayority would expect, pattern is still for alot of people boring as mentioned before, and whith the YS engines being as expensive as any good gas engine and cheaper than electrics, and airframes so capable that are at $1000 or less (CARF Integral), how much money can be saved by increasing the weight limit, $400?

Regards

DRC1

My Feedback: (10)

Interesting topic...Cost???? Keep it down to increase pattern attendance????

If you go to an IMAC contest, I believe there is more money in an IMAC plane than a pattern plane if you average the cost for each class...

I believe the only result of making any weight rule change will be additional cost for many.

Pattern does not have the WOW factor that IMAC and 3D planes have. Investment of time (including practice) and money will always favor IMAC in my humble opinion...

LLD

Mastertech

My Feedback: (31)

FAI has "Gotten into IMAC". The results will be interesting as they applied a weight limit to the airplanes. I doubt IMAC will apply the FAI rule across the board here in the USA. AMA made the 5k rule back 30 years ago when we flew .60 powered 65" wing span rocket ships. The sport has evolved greatly since then and I believe we should re-evaluate the rules.

I remember when Hanno was blasted for his "Overly complex" airplanes of the 70's, so what did he do? He came out with the Cylipso
SP? He still kicked butt with it and it was much simpler than what he'd been flying.

Back in the BPA days our local club would have anywhere from 30-60 fliers at a contest. Now we can't get 20. What changed? With the low turn out at local contests many were dropped. That's sad.

IMAC changed us forever, we can deny that fact as much as you want to but look at the facts. IMAC was born directly from the TOC, who were the top fliers in the TOC? That's right Pattern fliers. I scan IMAC results from time to time and constantly see names that were huge pattern fliers back years ago, at least in our part of the country.

Given the fact IMAC has basically no rules as far as airplanes go (I know the 10% scale rule but that's largely ignored IMHO) has opened that market to a wide range of pilots, airplanes,engines, budgets.

JAS made a statement that I believe rings true , from memory here, "I quit flying IMAC because they did away with the box and centering". Jason correct me if I'm wrong here.

I like the BPA and less so the SPA. Maybe we could combine the two and bring back the Hay day of pattern. One can wish can't he?

Tim

stuntflyr

Very interesting.
Since coming over to R/C, I find Pattern my attraction, 2M and Classic.
I skipped right over R/C IMAC from CLPA to full sized IAC stuff because of price. To compete in TOC back in the mid 90's I figured 12 to 15 thousand for a competitive set-up and a trailer to haul the models. Instead I bought a Pitts Special for 15K and flew it for 3 years. (It weighed 675 pounds).
Now I have no interest in IMAC as the money is ridiculous. Like having a turbine, I have been there and don't need a model, I guess.
Glad to see all of the events have the same problems regardless of discipline!
Chris...

apereira

For FAI and IMAC, I probably did explain all the way, I didn't it was necessary, but IMAC wasn't born just from the TOC, but it did came after the TOC, so IMAC based their schedulles on the IAC, and IAC has to comply with FAI/CIAM, I did not mean FAI rules FAI, but all aero sports falls under FAI if they are international, IAC being the case.

And IMAC has it's own set of rules, so where F3A has weight/dimension limits, IMAC has scale % among other rules.

The fact is cheap models do not win in Masters or FAI, those models are ussuslly not up to the task, that's the problem, if someone could have a cheap setup that can actually win, everybody will go that route, I would like to save money to.

Mastertech

My Feedback: (31)

Don Szczur won FAI at the Nationals a few years ago with a $750 ARF.

Dale Arnold just kick arse around here for years with a $750 arf.

Look at the local contest circuit, I think you'll see far more sub $1,000 air frames than 2K plus.

there seems to be several levels of air planes.

Less than 1k, Focus, argueably the longest selling, Competitive airplane of all time

$1000-1500, Impact, Shinden, Intregal and so forth

$1500-$2500, Proline,Astral XX, CA models line

Sky is the limit, Oxai

Give Jason, QQ, Arch, Don, Andrew, Brett, Troy a properly trimed Focus and they'll beat 99.99% of those flying a Oxai with all state of the art equipment.

I bought the Prolines I'm flying because I thought they were the sexiest airplane ever made to this point. Do I need them to fly at the local level? No but I can score a zero in grand style with them.