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Altair 200 crash.

Old 03-21-2009, 09:35 AM
  #1  
snap_roll
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Default Altair 200 crash.

Hi guys. Its been bothering me for awhile, but i thought i would compose this post in hope to seek some answers?

Febuary 8th 2009, my club's president maidened my altair after a very thorough pre-flight check, leaving no stones unturned.

Looks perfect for a good 2 minutes into the flight, with the plane flying straight and level and at 1/4 throt, bits of the stab started peeling
out at the tips (not at the joints!) and the plane just headed down (a 90 degree flip downwards instantly).

All blames were pointed at ME, when i questioned the manufacturer, who witnessed the crash. For example , using the wrong engine mount

(budd-engineering mount) which is the reccomended engine mount for the altair. Apparently, fingers were pointing at excessive vibration.

I've been WARNED not to write this post since i am a nobody in the pattern world. But i feel that the manufacturer isn't doing Naruke's

design justice. No slander over here, just stating some facts and airing my views. Besides, its not a very nice feeling, when you are a student

saving like hell, doing holiday jobs and stuff just to get your dream pattern plane only to witness its death on the maiden.

Will post some pictures soon.


Old 03-21-2009, 09:54 AM
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Ryan Smith
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Default RE: Altair 200 crash.

As long as you're not bashing, I don't see anything wrong with trying to get help. I doubt there will be much that people can do on here, as it's hard to figure out what happened from pictures. Sorry for your loss.
Old 03-21-2009, 11:29 AM
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mikehannah
 
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Default RE: Altair 200 crash.

Hi
Who was the manufacturer?

M
Old 03-21-2009, 12:11 PM
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huison2005
 
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Default RE: Altair 200 crash.

[:@] Sorry to hear that ........... well , i just lost a PROLINE last Sunday , first meidan flight .... i lost it due to the belly got lose ..... ??!!

i wonder why and how .... i have double check everything before it took off , hemm........... !!

the belly got loose fly off and hit the right elevator , the composite skin open up and cause the damage .... could't control the plane

any more ........ !!!
Old 03-21-2009, 01:12 PM
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highfly3D
 
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Default RE: Altair 200 crash.

How much did u spend on the plane... the Altair...200 i guess its a very expensive pattern plane
Old 03-21-2009, 02:21 PM
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amram
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Default RE: Altair 200 crash.

The Altair is a 2x2 Meter full-composite pattern ship. It is Naruky's design produced by Extreme-composite.
To the best of my information the Idea of Extreme-composite is to supply to the market full composite F3A equipment
but more economical then Oxai. I cannot comment on the loss but I can say that a friend of mine on a similar case got
a complete new ZEN-Mark-3 (Also 2x2 professional F3A Ship) Airplane from World Model. This is what I call a good service.
Regards
Amram


Old 03-21-2009, 11:56 PM
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jim woodward
 
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Default RE: Altair 200 crash.

Snap Roll,

Very sorry to read of your mishap and airplane loss. As for the manufacturer blaming the engine mount, I find that hardly credible as a source of the crash. I think if the motor mount had an issue so bad as to cause this type of stabilizer failure, that surely you would have noticed it on the ground.

Again, sorry for the loss,
Jim
Old 03-22-2009, 02:17 AM
  #8  
amram
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Default RE: Altair 200 crash.

Snap Roll,
Sorry for the loss. It is very cruel to loss an expensive and invested model on a test flight.
May I ask which Engine and type of mount were in use at the time of the incident?
Amram
Old 03-22-2009, 08:56 AM
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snap_roll
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Default RE: Altair 200 crash.

Hi guys,

Thanks for the consoling comments.

The engine is a DZ160 with budd-engineering mount.

The altair is by extreme composite, but a certain person distributes it.

You could pm me to find out more
Old 03-22-2009, 09:10 AM
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Default RE: Altair 200 crash.

Hi Snap Roll
I don't agree with the presume cause vibrations due to Bud Engi. If there are a lot of vibrations you sent them on field when engine running and gear of servo will brake immediatly.
Stab spelled because it was bad done.
Write to the manufacturer and ask him a new plane as garantie.
Regards
Old 03-22-2009, 10:56 AM
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Default RE: Altair 200 crash.

Crash pics please
Old 03-22-2009, 03:51 PM
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NJRCFLYER2
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Default RE: Altair 200 crash.

The engine is a DZ160 with budd-engineering mount
Whose nose ring did you use?
Old 03-23-2009, 09:41 AM
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rcpp
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Default RE: Altair 200 crash.

My name is Richad Cheong. I would like to set the record straight.
I am the producer of the Astral XX, the Altair 110 and the Altair 200.
As of to date there are moer tn 50 Altair 200 that are delivered and still flying except one. All the pilots have bought
their airplanes directly from authorised dealers. All these pilots are very experience F3A pilots
SnapRoll on the other hand has purchased it for a "good
price" from another person that has purchased it from me. It was however kept in storage for awhile before
SnapRoll took over ownership. As such I cannot garantee the condition of SnapRoll's aircraft.

The Altair 200 is a competition ready aircraft designed by Mr. Naruke and endorsed by him personally.
We have put in a lot of time effort and care to produce the Altair 200. Each plane is checked and double checked before
packing and shipping. X-treme knows from experience that this is Mr. Naruke's design and nothing must go wrong.

Like all of his airplanes and all world competition class F3A airplanes, they are considered F1 class of pattern planes.
As such they are to be treated with utmost care or else it will not serve you well. I have always told my pilots that
if they are to take up F3A they must have the mind set of F1. From installation, setting up right up tho the air.
I have also given this advice to Onda during one of my many meetings with him in Japan.

The Altair 200 has a very good flying weight as such it is very delicate and must be treated with much care.
Whether Snaproll has the experience and aptitude to manage the Altair 200 is questionable.

One cannot expect owner of compact and fourwheel drives to handle F1 all on his own without expert help
on the first attempt.

I was at the maiden flight but did not see the cause of the accident. From what I was told by observers
the plane was recovering from a downline to level flight and the accident occured.
I was told the stab broke apart before the plane went down.
The Altair 200 stab weights less than 200 grams. For you F3A enthusiasts you will agree that this is very light.
As such it is very delicate. If not handled properly can cause damages even before it leaves the building table.

On SnapRoll's comment that I have not done justice to Mr. Naruke's design,
a brief visit to Naruke Hobby's website will be enlightening.
Mr. Naruke looks very happy with the Altair 200.
SnapRoll is in no position to make such a comment only Mr. Naruke himself can.


If SnapRoll is not slandering me or this lovely airplane that so many has come to own and love, than I do not know the intention of his post.

To climb the F3A ladder is a long and painfull one. One has to accept, be patient and learn.

There was no blame. If SnapRoll feels as such, he need to do some soul searching.

On being a nobody in the pattern world, I think SnapRoll has changed that.

We all feel pain when an airplane goes down. So much work put into it.
But we accept, learn and go on.

I hope SnapRoll will accept, learn and go on like the rest of us.






Old 03-24-2009, 04:32 PM
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jaycey
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Default RE: Altair 200 crash.

Would anyone like to see the pictures of the Stab on my X Treme Composite model when it started to delaminate on its second flight?
It started to delaminate from the 'Live Hinge' I estimate 1 more flight would have been the end of the model.

Thankfully I noticed it before it failed completely.

So Mr Cheong I am one of the fortunate people who have the evidence to prove that some of your products are produced with faults.
Maybe its you who needs to do some soul searching.



Old 03-25-2009, 04:08 AM
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Alfonso Garcia
 
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Default RE: Altair 200 crash.

Dear Friends;

I have similar problem with my Oxalys Evolution from TS Composite two years ago, I was posted in this forum the problem, inform to manufacturer and never have a reply from manufacturer, only importer tell me that manufacturer never accepts in-flight failures. I never see one plane broke by himself on the ground!! It is very hard that manufacturer be at the flying field when problems happen and do not take care of it. Good luke.

Best Regards. Alfonso.
Old 03-25-2009, 05:32 AM
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tIANci
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Default RE: Altair 200 crash.

This is an area I rarely would like to step into. But the fact is simple:

i. A plane broke apart during its maiden flight;
ii. The plane was in a 3rd party's possession before it was handed to Snap Roll.

Its very simple here, I doubt that Snap Roll is intending to come here to slander anyone. We are all hobbyists, its a hobby. As a friend of his who heard what he has to say, I will say its more like he feels pretty stupid when he is told that the plane broke apart probably because the engine caused too much vibration etc. That is the stinger for him. Richard ... its not Snap Roll's intention to do either you or anyone in. Perhaps due to his age he may not have phrased things better but nevertheless its the issue of a plane breaking apart in flight. Something that pretty much shocked him and hurt him financially.

In all fairness, nothing is manufactured with a 100% defect free rate. Even with the best of multinationals who have years upoin years of experience they run on a 5% reject rate on the production line and some lemons do enter the market too. Be it Sony, BMW, Nokia etc. As you can see Richard, one plane from the Xtreme Composite factory has an instance of delamination. Did Snap Roll's stab delaminate? We will never know since no one took a HD video of it like how they track the space shuttles. Dead End.

Snap Roll ... its very true that the plane was in a 3rd party's possession before it was handed to you. Anything may or may not have happened. The truth, we will never know. That is a fact that you have to accept too. To be fair to Richard did you specifically inspect the stab at all during pre-flight? Dead End.

As for Richard, its most unfair to say its a F1 plane and only those with a F1 mindset only can handle her. A plane is a plane and is a plane bearing in mind the club president who is from what I hear a very meticulous man had done some pre-flight inspection, like I said, some though not necessary in detail. Dead End.

A stab will take many Gs when you are pulling down line snaps and other maneuvers, there is a certain amount of rigidity built into it and it will not surely break apart after a mere knock. Does not matter how light the stab is. Its not tissue. But might it have taken a hard knock? Who knows? Dead End.

Me personally? What can I say? I know that vibration from an engine will not cause the stab to break a couple of minutes into the flight. Like some have said, if it could then we doubt you would have wanted to let the plane fly, it would be so obvious. BUT the fact is we all can only speculate. That is not a good thing. It leaves a bitter taste in each party's mouth no matter what. Dead End.

Lesson learnt ... its not wise to save a few hundred when you should have purchased from the dealer directly for that added insurance. The you have legal recourse, it can be the Consumer Claims Tribunal or the Small Claims Court etc. Here ... well ... its a lesson learnt. Sad and painful but nonetheless one that is learnt.
Old 03-25-2009, 08:31 AM
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Default RE: Altair 200 crash.

[:@]Hi , Snaproll sorry for the lost . . . . . i know the paint and how it feals like , i just lost my PRO-LINE on the first maiden flight

last two weekend ago ! ![&o]

As for the engine mount , i use Budd engineering soft-mount on my PROLINE and a 2M Beam ...... it work fine for me .

As for Richard, its most unfair to say its a F1 plane and only those with a F1 mindset only can handle her. A plane is a plane and is a plane bearing in mind the club president who is from what I hear a very meticulous man had done some pre-flight inspection, like I said, some though not necessary in detail. Dead End.

After the lost of my PROLINE , i am searching for the replacement plane , as i am advice to consider ALtair200 , but after reading your
post reply .................. , i WOULD NOT consider buying this plane any more .............. as for your statement above and some more
i am " NOBODY AT THE PATTERN WORLD" so better for me to stay away from purchasing your Altair , This plane is "only for those top f3A flyer" to OWN ................... !!

jaycey , hi , i would like to see the picture of your X TREME STAB .... !!

I have had encounter this probleum with my 2m BEAM , after pre install all the wing stab than check for the proper wing alignment,
i found that ane of the elevator stab is out of alignment for 1.5 mm , so i took the pic and email the manufacturer .... hey guess what
i got email from them and SAYING THAT THEY ARE VERY SORRY FOR THE MISSTAKE AND THE CAUSE OF INCONVENION ..... AS TO OVER COME THE PROBLEUM , WE WILL SEND YOU A REPLACEMENT NEW STAB AT NO COST ..... THEY EVEN SEND ME A 60SIZE PATTERN PLANE TOGETHER WITH THE NEW STAB FOR COMPENSATE !! Eventhough the price of their plane not as HIGH as the Altair,
but their support is good ... !!

That is what i call GOOD SERVICE .... !!
Old 03-25-2009, 09:05 AM
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Default RE: Altair 200 crash.

We really need to see pictures of the stabs, there's no way to find out what happened, if it is bad glue the piece will fall during sanding way before it flies, so post the pictures please.
Old 03-25-2009, 09:51 AM
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tuny
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Default RE: Altair 200 crash.

I just cant beleive it, pictures, evidence please. without it words come and go, but a picture says more than 1.000 words.

engine vibration breaks a stab??? to me, hard to beleive.
Old 03-25-2009, 09:57 AM
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jaycey
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Default RE: Altair 200 crash.

Before I get to the pictures, with regards to 3rd party incidents etc...dont forget that X-Treme supply some of their models to Graupner ( https://shop.graupner.de/webuerp/servlet/AI?ARTN=6299 and http://alshobbies.com/shop/lookupsto...?pc=7063&Desc= ) who then market them as their own. So X-Treme should be very familiar with 3rd party deals. Do they say to Graupner "Tuff Luck" when one of their customers report a failure?

Pictures...



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Old 03-25-2009, 10:10 AM
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tIANci
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Default RE: Altair 200 crash.

Jaycey ... looks bad enough to cause an interesting situation if it were not noticed. Is that the Edge?
Old 03-25-2009, 10:16 AM
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jaycey
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Default RE: Altair 200 crash.

Yep thats the Edge 2 X 2.

and the thing is, would I have had any joy with a munufacturer after a crash?

Another Failure ... http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_51...tm.htm#5162241

Funnily enough a very well know uk retailer that I know personaly contacted me when he found out I was building this one and told me one of his friends had the same model and it had suffered a main wing delamination very early into its life (totaly destroyed). Thats why I was so observant with this model.
Old 03-25-2009, 10:53 AM
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Gregg G
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Default RE: Altair 200 crash.

Jaycey,
Have you contacted the company? If you did, what was the response?

Greg
Old 03-25-2009, 11:32 AM
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jaycey
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Default RE: Altair 200 crash.

Greg I was fortunate enough to have a Graupner supplied version.
As you can imagine with a company as big as Graupner, an e-mail to the retailer was forwarded to Graupner with the attached pictures and a new stab was sent to me.

But I was never comfortable with the model after this and sold it. Shame as it was a stunning looking model.

Interestingly also is that Graupner see fit to include a upgraded hardware kit
Old 03-25-2009, 11:34 AM
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Default RE: Altair 200 crash.

My Angel's Shadow did that a few years ago. I had purchased it second hand from Sean McMurtry and the horizontal stab delaminated turning the plane into a "lawn dart". Complete loss including the engine. The manufacturer (from Russia) stood behind the plane and offered me a completely new airframe for his cost including shipping. I thought it was way beyond what was expected by the manufacturer since I knew the plane was bought 2nd hand. Here's a copy of the thread's address:

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_29...tm.htm#2953055

The new airframe was perfect...

John

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