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SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)

Old 12-31-2009, 04:08 PM
  #226  
MTK
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Default RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)


ORIGINAL: cmoulder

Hmm... somebody did it [link=http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=6662347]here[/link]! Photos in the post after that one.


The rubber isolation mount described here-in works as well as I expected. Eventhough it is lightweight, it held up fine. To be certain, I need another couple hours of running to make the full assessment, but after 3 runs, everything is a GO. Very little vibration was noticed at all throttle settings, and even without a nose ring, the prop showed practically no sideways movement or wobble. I may forgo adding a ring to the nose.... but, we'll see!!

However, Matt mentioned that he will use a nose ring, and SAP is working on a nose ring as Matt advised earlier. I've made a nose ring for a YS 110, and I think I could make one for this engine... one with a little detour for the Hall sensor.

Your photos above got me to thinking about these larger, home-made isolator soft mounts, and how the split balsa rings (donut) provide a specific plane of rotation, which may lead to less wobbling. I dunno, but I'm gonna find out in the next couple of months. One thing's for sure - I'm going to watch it VERY carefully on that initial run.
Bob,

My test bed has no nose ring right now. All the testing Ed and I have done has been without the nose ring. This isn't a 4 stroke that shakes all over the place. It is possibly the smoothest running 2 stroke in this size range I have run to date......

One could actually run the engine in a pattern model hard mounted if it wasn't for the noise. And believe me that the soft mount reduces noise probably 6 dB, maybe more.

Years ago our club used to sponsor a one design racing series. One could use up to a 2.2 in the racers. Almost all used the Moki 1.8, 2.1 and MDS 2.2. All ran chopped down apc's with tuned pipes to get rpms around 13-14K. These were 84" span models weighing around 15 lbs. All engines were hard mounted and you can imagine the racket

Well... making a long story short, I soft mounted my Moki 1.8, but ran the pipe and pretty much the same set-up otherwise. Where everyone else was in the 104 to 110 dB, my set-up was around 97 db. Not really quiet, but a heck of lot quieter than everyone else.

BTW- That's one feature that gets generally overlooked on the Hyde innovation. If it wasn't for soft mounting, we would have never made the noise limit and Pattern as a sport could have died.

Matt
Old 12-31-2009, 04:29 PM
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Default RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)

Bob-I'm actually considering not using a soft mount, and hard mounting it to the firewall like I have always done with 2 strokes.
Old 01-01-2010, 01:30 PM
  #228  
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Default RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)

ORIGINAL: Gungadin

Bob-I'm actually considering not using a soft mount, and hard mounting it to the firewall like I have always done with 2 strokes.
Hi, Dan: I had seriously considered doing this as well. But I'm thinking that since I'm making the effort to do a quality installation with the fine engine and top notch pipe, I might as well go the extra step and quiet it down as well.

I was on hand a couple of times when Anthony-RCU flew his Black Magic v2.2 with OS 140RX on a pipe and it was incredibly quiet. I think there are some electrics that make more noise than that plane! Also, I have seen some of the big YS engines with soft mounts and Hatori pipes, and they are very quiet as well.

If the gasser is anywhere near as quiet as those, I will be very happy.
Old 01-01-2010, 01:45 PM
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Default RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)

Yes Bob, I understand completely. My lazziness is kickin in here, and I will probably take the easier softer way. If I have to I can always go to a soft mount later. Your pictures of the mount got me thinking though. Great job. I just sent in my engine order yesterday, so I won't be getting it for 3 or 4 weeks or so. I will probably order the pipe in another week or so. Thanks for sharing your build.[sm=thumbs_up.gif]
Old 01-01-2010, 02:05 PM
  #230  
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Default RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)

Hey all.. My friend Dave R just recieved his motor. He invited me and Bob H. to the inaugural firing. It was really cold in Dave's Bat Cave. 32 degrees. We followed the manual with the initial needle settings. We could get some intermittent pops but after an hour or so of troubleshooting and fiddleing, no luck even with a shot of ether. Good spark and every concievable needle setting. the best we got was a pop. Dave took the carb apart to look for a problem and couldn't find anything. Could it just be too cold?
RC
Old 01-01-2010, 03:02 PM
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Default RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)


ORIGINAL: RC11

Hey all.. My friend Dave R just recieved his motor. He invited me and Bob H. to the inaugural firing. It was really cold in Dave's Bat Cave. 32 degrees. We followed the manual with the initial needle settings. We could get some intermittent pops but after an hour or so of troubleshooting and fiddleing, no luck even with an shot of ether. Good spark and every concievable needle setting. the best we got was a pop. Dave took the carb apart to look for a problem an couldn't see anything. Could it just be too cold?
RC
That's pretty strange RC. I know every engine gets run in at the factory before shipment. Is it getting fuel up to the carb? It sounds like it's dry. You should be able to smell it even at 32F. The last few runes have been made at around the same temp here

Did you guys try using a starter? Any of the heavy duty types will work. Last resort, take the plug out and squirt a good snort into the plug hole. Flip once to distribute and reinstall the plug. Once it pops it will start. I've done this a couple times myself since I didn't have a starter handy

MattK
Old 01-01-2010, 03:05 PM
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Default RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)

Hmmmmm ! Happy New Year Rick
Old 01-01-2010, 06:49 PM
  #233  
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Default RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)

Cold shouldn't make a difference, as I've started and flown gassers in weather as cool as 20 degF, though it might change the needle settings a skosh because of the denser air.

Sometimes with a brand new engine it takes quite a bit of fuel to get the carb "wet" and to get the pump diaphragm working like it should. Matt's suggestion for priming it and using an electric starter will probably work. I'm assuming the throttle butterfly was opening properly, fuel delivery good? When you choked it, did you see the carb pulling fuel through the line?

As with any IC engine, if you've got fuel, air and fire, something's gotta happen!
Old 01-01-2010, 07:11 PM
  #234  
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Default RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)

ORIGINAL: RC11

Hey all.. My friend Dave R just recieved his motor. He invited me and Bob H. to the inaugural firing. It was really cold in Dave's Bat Cave. 32 degrees. We followed the manual with the initial needle settings. We could get some intermittent pops but after an hour or so of troubleshooting and fiddleing, no luck even with a shot of ether. Good spark and every concievable needle setting. the best we got was a pop. Dave took the carb apart to look for a problem and couldn't find anything. Could it just be too cold?
RC
Naahhh . . cars and motorbikes run at 32deg.

You need three things . . air, fuel, and spark. If you have ALL those, then it should run.

Was it fresh gas and properly stored? (dumb questions, I know) . . and I don't just mean freshly mixed. I had a friend having trouble with his gokart, and asked me to look at it. It would "pop" but wouldn't run. I asked him how old the gas was in the tank . . he said about 6 months. We drained it and replaced it with fresh stuff, and it ran like a clock !

JB
Old 01-02-2010, 08:57 AM
  #235  
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Default RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)

I agree, alot of people do not realize that there is "summer gas" and "winter gas". The main difference is the vapor pressure is higher with the winter gas. I tried to get my leaf blower going yesterday and it did not run until I brought it inside to warm up first.
Old 01-02-2010, 09:31 PM
  #236  
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Default RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)


ORIGINAL: RC11

Hey all.. My friend Dave R just recieved his motor. He invited me and Bob H. to the inaugural firing. It was really cold in Dave's Bat Cave. 32 degrees. We followed the manual with the initial needle settings. We could get some intermittent pops but after an hour or so of troubleshooting and fiddleing, no luck even with a shot of ether. Good spark and every concievable needle setting. the best we got was a pop. Dave took the carb apart to look for a problem and couldn't find anything. Could it just be too cold?
RC
Rick,

Tell Dave I'm willing to come over and help on my Wheeling days after work. I won't give up my YS but this engine is interesting to me and I'd love to see you guys get it going. If it is anywhere near as good as this thread makes it out to be, and I have no doubt it is, Dave will be smiling come Spring at the primer.
Old 01-03-2010, 07:21 AM
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Default RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)

I took my Zenoah 45 out a couple days ago in 9 degree weather and it fired right off. I was using gas I had left over from summer. I was surprised it started and ran so well.
Old 01-03-2010, 08:44 AM
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Default RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)

ORIGINAL: JVB

I took my Zenoah 45 out a couple days ago in 9 degree weather and it fired right off. I was using gas I had left over from summer. I was surprised it started and ran so well.
I have done this also (summer gas... not 9 degF) and have not had a problem, knock on balsa.
Old 01-03-2010, 08:47 PM
  #239  
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Default RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)

Bob, don't knock too hard on the balsa cause it'll crack. It was 4 degrees here in the lovely and well kept Motor City today. The good news was that it was windy so I wasn't tempted to try flying. I think the only thing that would run today was my nose. Tommorrow I head to Miami for the rest of the winter. I am taking my Phoenix Extra 330 for flying. I can't wait.
Old 01-04-2010, 04:29 PM
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Default RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)

Don't feel bad for us frozen Northerners. Kinda nice working on the Focus II at a more leisurely pace than I normally do, not being pulled away by nice weather. That's why I said 'what the heck' and proceeded with the soft mount.

I was raised down South (FL panhandle) and I much prefer the distinct seasons here. About 20 years ago, I lived in Monterey, CA for a couple of years and actually got sick of the nice weather. 325 days out of the year were totally perfect and the other 40 were totally acceptable. Had to go someplace else if you longed for some crappy weather.
Old 01-05-2010, 03:48 PM
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Default RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)

Syssa break-in oil

Hi, Matt, I don't have the Syssa manual with me (I'm at work) and don't remember if it detailed any special break-in instructions or specific oils/ratios.

Normally I just use the Pennzoil 2-cycle air-cooled all the time, 32:1 for break-in (about a gallon with an engine this size) and then go to 40:1 and lean a smidge after that.

How did you run in your SAP 180? I remember somewhere you or Ed mentioned synthetic (AMSoil Sabre?) at 100:1, but I'm assuming you broke it in with something else, no? I know DA is now recommending Redline at 100:1, but I am quite happy running everything with Pennzoil at 40:1. Any problem using exclusively Pennzoil with the Syssa?
Old 01-05-2010, 06:25 PM
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Default RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)

Bob-Just got the manual from Todd yesterday and it says for the first 15 min. of running we should use 40:1 NON-Synthetic oil.
Old 01-05-2010, 06:35 PM
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Bob-Also the manual recommends running Synthetic at 50:1 to 80:1 ratio after the first two gallons.
Old 01-05-2010, 06:51 PM
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Default RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)

OK Dan, thanks. The Pennzoil will work fine then.

I figured out a way to splice some stand-offs for a perfect fit with the soft mount, and may be able to fire it up if we get a break in the weather. Got some cheep-o 1/8" 3-ply that I can laminate to make a test stand.

Getting really close to starting work on the pipe tunnel... just as soon as I get the engine/soft mount position dialed in on the motor box.
Old 01-05-2010, 07:02 PM
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Default RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)

Bob-I should have my engine in a few weeks. I'm interested what you have to do with the pipe tunnel, cause I'll have to do the same.
Old 01-05-2010, 07:17 PM
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ORIGINAL: Gungadin

Bob-I should have my engine in a few weeks. I'm interested what you have to do with the pipe tunnel, cause I'll have to do the same.
Good deal. Even without the soft mount the tunnel will be the same because the engine position should be identical.
Old 01-05-2010, 07:22 PM
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Default RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)

Yes, I guess so, since the engine rear prop driver washer should be the same in relation to the front of the cowl. Only difference will be our stand off lengths cause yours has to take thickness of the soft mount into account and mine will probably go direct on the firewall.
Old 01-05-2010, 08:13 PM
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ORIGINAL: Gungadin

Yes, I guess so, since the engine rear prop driver washer should be the same in relation to the front of the cowl. Only difference will be our stand off lengths cause yours has to take thickness of the soft mount into account and mine will probably go direct on the firewall.
Hmm... later I will do a couple of measurements to see what length stand-off's would be needed for hard mounting the SAP 180. The total length of the engine - from the prop drive washer back to the 2 studs that hold the choke plate - is right at 6 inches, maybe just a tiny bit more, but not much. So if you don't want the carb to protrude back into the motor box, that is the minimum. And really you don't want the carb to protrude past the motor box because the Walbro carb on the SAP 180 has a funky choke plate that I haven't seen before, which is literally a stamped metal plate that is spring loaded and rotates on a stud with an arm sticking out, and the other stud serving as a stop. (Glad I'm using a choke rod, so I don't have to figure out how to link a servo to that thing!) Also, since the motor box face isn't very robust, you want to leave as much material intact there as possible.

The motor box on the Focus II sticks out pretty far, so even with the minimum "carb-clearance" standoffs you may have to modify the motor box to shorten it somewhat. Firewall to cowl exit is 7-7/8", which is the magic number.
Old 01-05-2010, 08:24 PM
  #249  
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Default RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)


ORIGINAL: cmoulder

Syssa break-in oil

Hi, Matt, I don't have the Syssa manual with me (I'm at work) and don't remember if it detailed any special break-in instructions or specific oils/ratios.

Normally I just use the Pennzoil 2-cycle air-cooled all the time, 32:1 for break-in (about a gallon with an engine this size) and then go to 40:1 and lean a smidge after that.

How did you run in your SAP 180? I remember somewhere you or Ed mentioned synthetic (AMSoil Sabre?) at 100:1, but I'm assuming you broke it in with something else, no? I know DA is now recommending Redline at 100:1, but I am quite happy running everything with Pennzoil at 40:1. Any problem using exclusively Pennzoil with the Syssa?
Bob,

You remember correctly...Todd uses Amsoil Sabre Pro at 100:1. One pouch per gallon. A side note, the actual calculated ratio is around 85:1 (Todd actually measured it).

BUT, this is a bit of too good lubricator and it will take 2 - 3 gallons of runs to fully seat everything. That's probably a month's of summer flying, maybe longer.

I think Todd mentioned that it's a good idea to start on something nonsynthetic to give the surfaces a faster seat. Then switch to the synthetic for at least a gallon or two. One thing I have heard from others in warmer climes that are running the engine continuously, the engine behaves even better after a month of flying.

Mine is no where near broken in. I only have about a dozen runs on it including the runs at Todd Syssa's place. That's a total of about 6 tankfulls which is very low run time of about 1 1/2 hours total. Can hardly wait for better weather so I can play some more.

It won't hurt anything at all if you ran the synthetic only from the start at 85:1. It will just take longer to break in.

BTW- Todd showed Ed and I the insides of an engine that he has run more than 1500 flights. There was no wear per se that one could see. The measurements were the same as when the engine was new according to Todd. And NO carbon build up... anywhere I looked even the exhaust port.

That's pretty cool

Matt

Old 01-05-2010, 11:27 PM
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Default RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)

When I acquired a new DA50 a couple of years ago, everyone said to use Lawnboy Ashless for break-in.

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