2011 Masters Sequences
 

I've been spending the last couple of weeks flying the proposed 2011 Masters sequences. I had flown the long a while back, since I thought it would be the one that passed. I found it to be an interesting and sufficiently challenging sequence. But since it seems that everyone wants the short sequence, I started flying it. I have to say, I find it to be unsatisfactory for a Masters sequence. There is not enough challenge to it and just not enough difficulty to really separate the fliers. There are only two rolling maneuvers, a simple square loop with 1/2 rolls, and the "shape" maneuvers are just too simple.

Has anybody else out there been flying it?

RE: 2011 Masters Sequences
 

Tony, I know a couple guys here in NorCal have been trying the short sequence but I have not heard anything about it directly from them. I will ask.

Woodie aka Don

RE: 2011 Masters Sequences
 

The Sequence Committee asked for this type of input months ago. Too late now. All you can do is vote for the one you prefer.

RE: 2011 Masters Sequences
 

Maybe somebody can explain this to me. On the AMA site I don't see a single proposal to change the sequences for 2011. Only a proposal to eliminate the sequences from the rulebook. So how are the sequences changed and approved?

RE: 2011 Masters Sequences
 

Tony,

In the NSRCA they posted this information:

Proposed 2011 Masters Sequence Survey
The NSRCA is looking for feedback on the two proposed Masters sequences that were developed and submitted to the contest board. If you are a current Masters pilot, or plan to fly Masters in the next year or two, would you prefer to fly the short Masters sequence or the longer one? There are benefits to both sequences from a pilots perspective and from a judging perspective. How do you feel?

We'll keep this poll open for 2 weeks.

Update: August 20, 2010 - the poll is now closed. Thank you to all that participated. 82% favored the shortened Masters sequence.

I don't know if this is official but the results shows that 82% favored the short Master sequence. Clearly the contest board has the authority to select the sequence.

RE: 2011 Masters Sequences
 

The proposal before the AMA Contest Board removes the sequences from the rulebook AND turns the responsibility for the development, publishing, and final approval to the NSRCA Board of Directors. As it's worded, the NSRCA Board of Directors assigns the task of schedule development to a special committee and then publishes the results for the NSRCA membership to vote on. There was, and may still be a voting poll for the long versus short Masters schedule on the NSRCA site. The last time I looked, the short schedule was ahead by a large margin. I personally don't care which one becomes official, I just wish the anouncement would be made now rather than December so those of us in the snow belt have a fair chance to start practicing them before the Nats.

I was expecting that the vote on the long versus short schedule would come before the AMA Contest Board as it has in the past since the proposal to turn it over to the NSRCA isn't official until the AMA Contest Board votes on it one way or the other. We kind of missed the boat on that one because if the proposal doesn't pass, there won't be any new schedules since they were never proposed. I don't think that'll happen, but it should have been covered just in case.

Verne
AMA Contest Board District VII

RE: 2011 Masters Sequences
 

I voted in the poll as many times as it would allow me to! I never even really looked at the short much as I am convinced that opting for the short is the wrong thing to do for the Masters class. I flew the long a number of times as soon as I saw it proposed. It is a fine pattern. The short however has several problems.

F3A can use a shorter pattern in the preliminary and then a same length final pattern as the difficulty goes up a bunch. Then in the finals they add an unknown. Masters flies one pattern and it needs a sufficiently difficult pattern to differentiate the fliers. It is after all the top AMA class. The short is not a good enough pattern to do that.

Also, was there any attempt with the online poll to make sure just those flying Masters voted in it? I wonder how many F3A pilots entered a vote.

RE: 2011 Masters Sequences
 

I voted in the survey although I'm not flying masters this year. However, I judge masters flights at contest so I have an interest in which sequence is chosen. Actually, everyone flying in a pattern contest is impacted one way or another by the length of the Master's sequence. If the short sequence is not difficult enough, it can be changed next year by the NSRCA BOD without going through the AMA rules change procedure if the proposal is approved. I'd think the sequence committee and BOD would welcome input (but I could be wrong).

RE: 2011 Masters Sequences
 

There is zero impact regarding the length of the Masters pattern at the Nats. Maybe there is somewhat at a local meet. But that was all moot before F3A shortened their schedules. The patterns used to be the same length. But I guess we have to continue to blindly follow the F3A with what we do with our own schedules.

RE: 2011 Masters Sequences
 

.

RE: 2011 Masters Sequences
 

I also like the longer sch. but I seem to be getting no traction expressing this opinion.

gary

RE: 2011 Masters Sequences
 

I also prefer the longer schedule. This should be voted on again with the stipulation that only those pilots currently flying or that will fly Master's class within the next year should be allowed to vote.

John

RE: 2011 Masters Sequences
 

Guys, this has nothing to do with anybody blindly following anybody else. It's all about trying to keep participation up at local contests. Participants do not appreciate being in the chair all weekend!

This was discussed at length on the NSRCA list in May 09, [link=http://lists.nsrca.org/pipermail/nsrca-discussion/]do a search[/link]

Here's a snippet from one post that sums it up pretty well:
Me personally, I think the shorter sequence is fine. I find it more challenging than what we have been flying given all the point rolls...there’s a big difference flying the M with 3/4 roll versus 3 of 4. Rev Cuban 8 from the top is about as challenging a "shape" maneuver there is. Plenty of rolling elements when you consider the entry and exit rolls.

I do agree though from the Nat’s perspective, it’s not ideal. So do we focus on one contest or consider ALL the contests held across the country and consider those stuck in the chair? I bet there are some out there who are competitive enough fly FAI but choose Master's simply to avoid having to judge it!

RE: 2011 Masters Sequences
 

The length of time the judges "sit in the chair" can be easily fixed. Let them judge two 1/2 rounds rather than one long single round. We did this way back when we had lots of pilots flying two different lines. Easy to split Masters into two groups with another class between the two groups. That would give the judges time to rest a bit.

Tim

RE: 2011 Masters Sequences
 

We're talking at the most about a minute to a minute and a half difference in flight time between the patterns. If there are 10 Masters fliers, we're talking 10 to 15 minutes longer to judge a round. The proposed 2011 long pattern already takes less time to fly then the current pattern. So we have to deal with an inferior pattern all the time for these slight differences in judging time?

I'd be willing to bet that most talking about these patterns have not taken the time to go out and fly them.

RE: 2011 Masters Sequences
 

Another solution is to pass the long sequence and then give CD's the option of dropping the last maneuvers from the schedule depending on number of entrants in masters. Then fly the complete schedule at the Nats.

RE: 2011 Masters Sequences
 

Why don't we propose exactly what Tony suggests? Let's approve BOTH long and short, fly the short on Saturday and the long on Sunday. This allows slight variation for our Masters fliers and gives them more of a challenge. The FAI guys memorize and perfect multiple patterns so then why shouldn't the bad boys of Masters? It's the highest level that you "have" to go to in Pattern so it should have the highest level of difficulty whether it be in K Factor or learning multiple sequences. To me, I think it adds yet another exciting facet to our top AMA class.

On the flip side of the coin, let's not forget about the "average" pilot that actually makes up the majority of us. Tony, you are an outstanding pilot and a force to be reckoned with on all levels of flight but there are a majority of us that don't have the skills you do (yet we continually try) and would like to be competitive and be able to place up in the standings occasionally. Since we are forced to move to Masters at some point, I would think we would want to look at a sequence that is acceptable for the majority of us and not necessarily just the best pilots in the class to give them a challenge. When an Advanced pilot is forced into moving and faces the daunting task of learning something that challenges the bad boys, it's rather overwhelming and could be a deterrent for some folks. If we are just solely looking at challenging the top brass then we need to not force the great local guys that win contests up to Masters as they may or may not want that much of a challenge. I look at the FAI sequence with the Figure M where part of it is a knife-edge loop! Personally, I look at that and think to myself, I don't think I can do that! Do we really want to have our Advanced fliers looking at Masters and say the same thing knowing they are forced into that class?

So to wrap it up, I love the idea of two sequences being approved and I'll work my tail off to get it right but don't forget about "everyone else' that may not want a huge learning curve when they first step foot into Masters. We compete to win....there is no other reason to compete really. I'm speaking solely from the standpoint of the competition. We wouldn't be running up to see the scores if this wasn't true.

RE: 2011 Masters Sequences
 

I don't think the majority of Masters pilots want to fly two sequences, based on what I've heard over the years.

Take this for what it's worth, I have not flown either of the two proposed sequences yet, and probably won't unless I get out before it gets cold up here. I do know that I do not like the length of the current sequence, I get bored about 2/3 of the way through it. That being said, I have aspirations to move up to FAI after the Nats next year as I haven't flown at a Nats since I've been in Masters.

Tony, your point about the 1-1.5 minutes extra for the longer sequence is great on paper, but in a practical application, do you really feel that would be the case? Assuming it is 1.5 minutes extra per flyer to fly, and there are 10 Masters contestants at a given contest, and there are four rounds flown on that day at that contest, that would add a minimum of one hour to the total length of the contest, assuming all the stars align perfectly, and everyone is flying the same speed and distance out.

RE: 2011 Masters Sequences
 

Hi Ryan,

And I don't like the design of the current F3A preliminary pattern. Almost all of it is up high in the box and looking up that much for all those F3A fliers is a pain.

If you're getting bored 2/3 of the way through the current Masters pattern, then definitely move up because your skills are too high for Masters.

Seriously, are we really saying we want the top fliers in the AMA classes to have to fly an inferior pattern just to make a round a few minutes shorter? Don't the guys who have worked their way through the AMA classes, helping a lot of people on that way, deserve to fly a pattern that will properly test their skills against the next guy? Especially at the Nats?

RE: 2011 Masters Sequences
 

This is just my opinion. :D

After flying both the short and long sequence back to back today, I have to agree with Tony. At first I wanted the Short sequence but the long sequence is just so much fun to fly and makes for a great challenge for the Pilot.

With a few changes I think the Shorter sequence would actually make for a great schedule for a class between advanced and masters, but that is a totally different topic. :D

Sometime in the near future I would like to make the move to FAI. But, before doing that I would like to have a Masters sequence that would help make the transition from Masters to FAI easier. I think the long sequence will do just that.

Chris Odom
D3 Masters Pilot.

RE: 2011 Masters Sequences
 

For Masters flyers wanting a more difficult schedule, why don't you propose a new shorter more difficult sequence to the NSRCA board. They will have the responsibillity of choosing the sequence. There's nothing to prevent them from choosing one that you develop between now and when they have to make a decision. I'd think there would be support for a more difficult sequence but not any longer than the present proposed short sequence.

RE: 2011 Masters Sequences
 

Dave,

That would be my preferred route, however I think the opposition to that is that you would then have too large of a skill gap between Advanced and Masters.

RE: 2011 Masters Sequences
 

I've sat on the side and have not made any comments till now. Myself and the rest of the sequence committee put a lot of time and effort into putting together 5 sequences this time around in accordance to the guidelines which are available on the NSRCA website. We made sure to address peoples concerns about what they saw as deficiencies in the current sequences and the need, as a number of people saw, for a shorter Masters sequence. We went the extra mile and came up with a traditional, as well as, shortened sequence for Masters. We did not have to do it, but there was a lot desire to do so from many. We just put the option out there for people to consider.

The thing that irritates the living heck out of me is that everyone was given a chance to review and even fly these patterns many months ago. At that time we asked for peoples comments and suggestions. At that time we got maybe a handful of comments. There was nothing that suggested we needed to make any adjustments. I believe I even made a post somewhere stating that people should really go out and fly them, as well. I'm not so sure we should entertain any changes at this time since it sets a bad precedence, but...

If anyone has any suggestions for minor changes to the short sequence, foreward them to me at [email protected]. There is no guarantee that any of the suggested changes will be adopted. The NSRCA BOD will have the final say.

RE: 2011 Masters Sequences
 

As our last contest we had 11 Master pilot's, it seem like it, to over an hour to judge one round, now you try setting in that chair.

RE: 2011 Masters Sequences
 

Jarvis - I hear you!!

I think skill-creep is something to watch out for and keep out of the Masters class. I really don't care which sequence is picked. But if you are going to use verbage like, "... separate the top flyers" and such, then that in itself is sounding like FAI.

Tony's F3A accomplishments speak for itself and are incredible! He is above the upper range of skills of the Masters class pilots. The question is, do you want a Masters sequence that separates 3-4 people any given year at the US Nationals, or a Masters sequence that fits into the larger participant skill group, of typically, what is the largest class at a contest?

Jim W.