Judging Question
 

I have a judging question, arising from some confusion at this weekend's contest. Here's the situation:

A contestant accidentally threw in a roll between the end of a center maneuver and the beginning of his turnaround. The judges were unsure how to score it. Should there have been a zero awarded somewhere, or downgrades to the previous and/or following maneuvers?

I thought this was addressed in the judging manual but can't find it anywhere.

Thanks,
Scott

RE: Judging Question
 

Scott,

Page RCA-9 of the rulebook:

14.2: If a maneuver other than landing is done out of order it shall be scored zero (0). Judges may inform the contestant or helper that a maneuver has just been performed out of sequence.

The interesting part is that judges has to inform the contestant. I don't think we usually do that since we really don't have time.

Vicente "Vince" Bortone

RE: Judging Question
 

The judge doesn't "Have to " inform, they "May" inform... 

One of the maneuvers should have been zeroed.  They either did an additional 360deg at the end or at the beginning of a maneuver.  Personally I would have likely zeroed the maneuver they just finished as I've seen on two occasions where the pilot THOUGHT they had left the maneuver incorrectly (upside down or right side up), started to do a half roll to fix it only to realize they were correct and had to complete the roll to get back on track.  Sadly, in the instance I'm referring to, the other judge was using that "between maneuver" moment to write the score down and never even saw the half roll "CRAP! Can't believe I did that" another half roll moment.    We really do need to get back to using scribes whenever possible.

RE: Judging Question
 

The situation was pretty much what Mark described...the pilot became disoriented between the inside square loop from the top and the half inside loop turnaround in the Intermediate pattern. He was unsure of his orientation, did a half roll before realizing he was OK and then completed it.
One of the judges thought there had to be a zero in there somewhere, the other thought that wasn't needed since the pilot did have a straight line exit to the first maneuver and an entrance to the second.
It wasn't a big deal, but I want to be able to get it right when I'm in the chair.

Thanks for your comments.

Scott

RE: Judging Question
 

If the flier had flown straight and level out of the center maneuver drawing a line then rolled the airplane I would have zeroed the upcoming maneuver.

Reasoning,

The flier did indeed finish the center maneuver correctly, he only thought he didn't. Once he rolled the airplane he then convinced (me) the judge he wasn't sure he was correct for the up coming maneuver. If he had indeed been upright instead of inverted then the zero should have went to the center maneuver.

In my opinion once the flier has flown a straight line after a maneuver it's completed and all down grades from there on belong to the next maneuver. In this case a zero.

Tim

RE: Judging Question
 

That's a fair assessment I think.  It clearly depends on when the roll is done.  But SOMETHING has to get zeroed.  In this example, there's time to have a straight line after the last maneuver, roll, and still draw a long straight line prior to the next (2 half rolls opposite) though I would have probably thought that he just started the half rolling early and forgot to roll opposite directions, only to do it again. lol.

RE: Judging Question
 

It clearly depends on when the roll is done

That is the defining caveat.

RE: Judging Question
 

I agree with Tim's assessment. If the centered maneuver was done correctly and a straight line was drawn on exit, that maneuver is fine. The next maneuver is the turnaround maneuver. Anything else done at that point will zero the next maneuver. Think about it like this: once the straight and level exit is drawn on the center maneuver and an inadvertent roll is done prior to beginning the next maneuver, the pilot has just committed a 360-degree error on the turnaround maneuver, scored a zero. The next centered maneuver does not have to be done until the airplane passes in front of the judges. Theoretically a pilot could do whatever he wanted at the end of the box for however long he wanted, assuming he was OK with getting a zero on the maneuver, and proceed with the next centered maneuver once he was done. I've actually seen this happen to a buddy of mine. What happened was he had an aileron servo come unplugged mid-flight as he approached a turnaround maneuver. He flew a couple circles at the end of the box and did a couple rolls to make sure he had full control, and then proceeded with the next centered maneuver once he was done. The judges scored it exactly like they should have, only the turnaround was zeroed.

RE: Judging Question
 

Wouldn't an added manuever make all the maneuvers after it out of sequence? Aren't the sequences called that due to having to fly the manuevers in sequence? A hard A** interpretation would make all the maneuvers after the roll zeros. Adding an element to a maneuver zeros the maneuver adding a manuever makes the rest out of sequence. I may actually drag out my rule book!!LOL

RE: Judging Question
 

Another thing to add to figuring out what maneuver gets the 0... the pilot was coming out of a square loop (from the top in this case) where does that maneuver begin/end.. at the first radius, or in the center or the line preceding the first radius? (just curious as it has never been an issue in anyone I have judged that it would have changed anything, but I could see in this case how it could be depending on where the roll occurred as to weather the square was complete)

RE: Judging Question
 

As I understand the rules in AMA pattern, passing in front of the judges is the criteria as to when a maneuver is to be done. Doing multiple things at the end of the box is all still part of one turnaround until you actually set up and approach center for the next centered maneuver. This is obviously up to interpretation because it is not a black and white rule, but my interpretation is what I glean from the rules as the intent.

RE: Judging Question
 

I would judge the Square until the aircraft flew past the first radi of the loop to complete the 360 degrees of the loop.

Tim

RE: Judging Question
 

I see the logic of treating it as a 360 degree error, either on exit or entry, and also Tim's choice of flying past the first radius (or slightly beyond) as the end of the square loop from the top. I don't think it would count as an out of sequence maneuver, anymore than doing two rolls instead of one on the Advanced "Full roll from inverted, half outside loop" would.

Scott

RE: Judging Question
 

I can see the "out of sequence" point of view as being wrong in that it is really just an added element to either the original maneuver or the next.

RE: Judging Question
 

I agree, I wouldn't rule it and extra maneuver.

I would how ever zero the end maneuver depending on where the roll occured.

Tim

RE: Judging Question
 

Sir if I were you I would direct your question to Mike Barbee Presadent of NASA ( not the Space Program) his Email is [email protected]
Thanks

RE: Judging Question
 

ok what is NASA and what does it have to do with this question?

Tim

RE: Judging Question
 

National Association of Scale Aeromodelers
and he has flown and Judged just about every aspectofRC, Just saying he would be a good source.
Have a great evening

RE: Judging Question
 

last contest some pilot flying last route ,I see two maneuver out of the box he still come in second do you known why ? because CD and judging is do him a favor that why[:'(]

RE: Judging Question
 

[quote]

RE: Judging Question
 

Tuan

Your last contest was the Jetero contest that Ron Barr CD'd and I was CO CD and chief Judge. I take great OFFENSE to your public comments reguarding the Judging. Ron Barr took special care at the pilots meeting to let all pilots know if they had any problems with the event to contact him or if a judging problem to contact me. To my knowledge you made no comments to Ron and you "Dam" sure did not make any attempt to talk to me about your concerns. To publicly make statements like this without even attempting to talk to those involved privately is ethically very WRONG. I suggest that if there is a Jetero Pattern Contest next year [and that's a "BIg IF"] you voice your judging concerns by not attending rather than trying to publicaly IMPUNE the creditability of the people who voluntarily spend hours and days of their free time putting on an event for YOUR benefit! Just a guess on my part but I doubt your post will have a positive bearing on your standing with-in the Pattern community. I could be wrong.

Dick Mundee

RE: Judging Question
 

This is a very subjective comment and to me appears unqualified. I assume you are talking about turnarounds. To score a significant downgrade on turnarounds, most of the TA maneuver needs to be flown outside the box. Where a person (other than the pilot or judges) stands and is looking from, makes a huge difference on his view of where something is flown.

Before making comments like these I encourage those that have concerns to please make sure you are viewing the flying from the Judges' perspective. Also, please bring it to the attention of the local event management (Ron is this case). It serves no positive purpose to Pattern to air something like this in a forum like this one

RE: Judging Question
 

Dick Mundee, you better hold your contest!!  Turn out was great, flying was great and it was a well run contest.  One does not speak for all.  Please, keep that in mind.

RE: Judging Question
 

Was it a good roll...

I would give'em extra points!! sorta like "Extra Credit"


he he he he

RE: Judging Question
 

Thanks Scott
This is Ron"s contest and his decision. Time will tell.
Dick