Webra 145 AAR / need help....
 

Hi,

I'm a 30+ year modeler and not at all new to engines and tuning and have successfully run many types. I am not a needle tweaker (I don' t overdo it....) and have a tendency to be successful with engine performance and longevity.

I have a new Webra 145 AAR on a Zen 120 with which I am trying to get back into pattern and am practicing intermediate. This is a powerhouse and I have no complaints with idle, or full power capability.

I test ran the engine twice on a stand with it in the upright position and using a full length macs header and greve pipe.
(Piedmont package) Engine ran great .

Last Thursday were the first flights in the Zen....fantastic power.
4 flights..... Friday 4 flights....

However: Saturday 4 flights, but one had to be aborted due to engine reduction to half power even with throttle full open....engine didn't seem to be loading up and ran fine through landing....it would just not accelerate to full RPM. I leaned the low speed mixture, checked the hi-speed and flew the rest of the session. Sunday....3 flights and another flight went to half power after flying 1 intermediate routine. (I usually fly 2 or 3 per tank...3's pushing the fuel limit.) Again I leaned the low speed and the hi-speed a little and flew the rest of the session. Today...Monday 3 flights....same thing. I had set the engine prior to every first flight trying to make sure I'm not running it lean. (I don't need every ounce of power for the Zen 120.) The thing I find is that sometimes I can richen the hi speed by 1/2 turn without any change in the tach. (7680 on an APC 16-14, macs header cut to Piedmont specs for the Greve pipe) Yet then I throttle back to half momentarily and try to transition to full, sometimes the engine will not lean out at all (stays rich and loses more rpm....) I have zero experience with pumps so I don' t know if that is a contributing factor. There aren't any instructions in my box concerning the pump (except in German) so I have intentionally left it alone. As far as I know I have followed Piedmont's directions to the letter including leaning the low speed until the engine wouldn't idle and richening 1/4 turn. The engine transitions excellently from idle to full....I only have trouble when I back off the power to about half...and even then not all the time....just on occasion.

Any suggestions from anyone running the Webra 145 AAR (red head) are appreciated. (I now have 21 runs on the engine including the 2 break in ground runs. I'm using 15% Omega fuel, and the OS "F" plug.) I love it except for this reliability issue, (which is probably due to my inexperience with pumps.)

Thank you,

Webra 145 AAR / need help....
 

Chris,

It sounds like you have some junk in the pump or in the carb. I would take a look at cleaning the carb 1st.

webra
 

Good morning,

It does sound like you have some crap in the pump or carb.. the other thing you might want to try is 25 nitro which will give a better mid range to top end... There has been some other stings about the same problem and peole have adjusted the pump..

Webra 145 AAR
 

Hi Guys,
Thanks, I tend to think you're right and that will be my next step....I do appreciate the feedback and will advise how it turns out. If it doesn't work, I'll try the fuel change. I did forgot to mention that I am using a filter on the inlet line prior to the pump.

Thanks again....

Webra 145 AAR / need help....
 

I am sure this probably doesn't apply here, but I have seen it before - a guy seemed to be having problems with the engine not behaving itself some of the time, but could not figure it out.

It turned out to be a faulty servo, the engine was fine!

James

Webra 145AAR
 

Thanks James,
Actually that is something I have considered, and now that I've heard you say that you've seen it, I'll try that too. (one step at a time so that I can try to isolate the problem....haha.)
Thanks....

Webra 145 AAR / need help....
 

I have been running the Webra for two seasons now. You need to run fuel with a 16 to 18% oil content, besides what the others have stated in this thread. Omega may have a higher oil content? Running Synthetic is also better. You will get a carbon buildup in the engine with Omega. Been there, done that when I ran the OS 61 Hanno Special years ago with Omega. The best two fuels that myself and others have found are 15% Cool Power and Powermaster 15/16(16% oil). I use Powermaster specially ordered without the dye in it. Also, you need to put afterrun oil in religiously after every flying session if you want any kind of bearing life. I use Mobil 1. Unfortunately, I have not found any source for Stainless Steel bearings for this motor. The motor runs its best around 8000 RPM. Try an APC 16.5X12W(Central Hobbies carries these the last time I checked). Great down lines and you'll fly at a slower more comfortable pace. Other props to consider are the APC 16X13, APC 15.5X12.5W. You may also want to get the air filter carried by Jeff Carrish. They are for the OS, but also fit the Webra Carb, as well. The link is: http://eaton9999.com/pattern-craft.com/

Joe Lachowski
NSRCA 330
AMA102303

Webra 145
 

Hi Joe,
Thanks alot for that feedback and the fact you have mentioned the synthetic and content issue has made up my mind that I will change fuel anyway. I will add a carb air filter too.

I appreciate the prop info also, and will try those in the near future.

Since you have that much experience with the Webra...
Have you ever had to mess with your pump settings? Do you know the setting recommendations?

Thank you,

Webra 145 AAR / need help....
 

No I have not. Others on the NSRCA mailing list have though.

http://www.nsrca.org/

My experience so far
 

Thought I would chime in. I've had this engine for this season and there has been a learning curve for sure. I agree the the Cool power 15% with 17% oil synthetic is a great fuel. I have found on a Temptation that the APC 17X10 regular is the best. I have the macs header but I switched from the Piedmont sold greves to the Webra 1100/260 pipe. The thing with mine is that it ran poorly until I put in the mixture control carb that they sell. It's a little tricky to set up but does it take care of the transition problems. I turn 8500 RPM with my combination now and that is a lot of power for sure! The 1 problem that I've had that really killed me up until about a month ago was a faulty YS check valve on my vent line which I had incorporated with a fuel T for filling.
Good luck, Mike

Webra 145 AAR
 

Hi Mike,
Thanks for chiming in .... In fact I just got back from the hobby shop with the Cool Power to fly this evening....haha. I'm not going to run off at extremes (contest on Saturday, first pattern contest since 1980 [Atlas & HP61 haha). Hey, I would like to know where to get the carb you're talking about for future reference...haha. Do you think the Greve pipe was a contributing factor, I noticed you went to the Webra pipe....

A side note is that I hope you had a good season, I hadn't seen your name in the mags since the mid-seventees. Is it as much fun now as then. Are you flying Masters? By the way, I just made a deal for a Temptation ready to paint with another Webra. (so I've gotta make this work...haha) I would be interested in knowing your thoughts on the Temptation. You can send me pmail if you don't want to tie up this thread.

Thanks again....

Temptation and MC carb.
 

Hey Chris I bought the MC from Horizon. They have an article on it this summer written by Tony F. I too quit pattern for many years. When I got back in in 2001 I had been out for the better part of 20 years. When I got back in I flew Advanced for awhile but now I'm in Masters. The planes today are so much better. My skills today are better than back in the old days but then the competition is much better now also. I really like the Temptation. The guys I fly with have ordered 16 of them so far from Piedmont. You could say that collectively were becoming the experts on this plane. You will love the Webra on this plane. Once you figure out the quarks its smooth flying. Happy flying, Mike

Webra/Temptation
 

Thanks Mike....I am having a ball myself....the learning is fun too.
Fly good & have fun....

I have only two phrases for the Webra 1.45....
 

..... after spending at least 12 hours working with a friend in attempts to get his Webera 1.45 running, sending it back to Horizon for a going over, and after this we are still not being able to get the engine to run the same one weekend to the next, the operative phrases we associate with the Webra 1.45 is:

"Can you say EBAY? ;)

AND

"OS MAX 1.40 is on the way!":D

Ebay?
 

Hey give me a heads up on that. Yahoo a genuine deal!

Re: I have only two phrases for the Webra 1.45....
 

Well.. it's not really fair to judge an entire brand/design over one specimen. My 1.45 is strong, reliable, and handles as well as any EFI I've run (I had 2) with the MC carb.

Sorry you've had bad luck with yours, but I love mine and will be getting the 1.60 for my new airplane just as soon as they are available.

Ditto
 

I agree with Doug here. My engine is actually getting stronger with age. I have complete unlimited vertical reliable consistent runs and great transition. Again this is due to the MC. Without it I could see one getting frustrated. Mike

Webra 145
 

Mike, I'm the old friend of Patternrules he told you about. May the Saints preserve you for hanging in there with your Webra. I've heard the MC carb will probably solve your problems. I too had a Greve pipe setup and thought the pipe was the problem but not really. Mine started out running hot as a new engine and come to fine out after a few tanks of running the head shim blew out. What's this !!! Lee at Piedmont said no problem just leave the shim out. Yea right.Problem was the lean runs had already cooked the piston & sleeve. Horizon replaced piston and sleeve under warranty with a fast turnaround but the engine has never run right in the mid range. I even drilled out the Greve pipe looking for less back pressure and thought that was the answer as it did run better after that. Went to the Larks contest and had 3 deadstick runs in a row AFTER having it running super the weekend before. Just like yours the thing would not recover from the mid range and would die before I could say Landing. It's back at Horizon as we type. I'm not bashing all Webra engines as a fellow competitor from Dallas (super guy) had one that ran like a top. He even helped me tune on mine but I still don't trust the thing. You can have only so many deadsticks and sooner or later one will rear up and bite you. That bite might cost big $$$. Good luck with your Webra.

Mike Austin

Hi Mike
 

Any friend of Steve's is ok with me. He's a great guy and he's passionate about flying. I'm anything but an expert on engines I just know that I have a horse in the Webra that I own. It's actually getting stronger as the thing gets older. I have 18 gallons thru it so far. Last night I flew the FAI pattern with it for the 1st time and it does all the maneuvers with plenty of power to spare. I can actually do a knife edge looping 8. I had a YS 140L on a Finesse 2+2 last year. It was good but doesn't approach my present power. From what Jerry Budd and Tony F. are telling me the Webra 160 will be even more powerful and lighter also.
The positives to this engine are clear to me:
A.) Less expensive
B.) More reliable than other engines
C.) Less vibration than a 4 stroke
D.) Alot cheaper fuel
E.) The bearings will easily last a whole season
F.) Simpler design that is cheaper and easier to fix and understand.
G.) The people who make the engine speak German. Had to get that in! My dad's name was Heinz Carl
H.) Stronger headers and pipes that don't always break like the YS does.
I.) A 2 year warranty.
I also like the fact that Horizon handles all the issues with it now. They are fantastic with their customer service.
I'm a happy Webra guy to say the least. Mike

Webra 145 AAR / need help....
 

Here are some tips when running the 1.45 on the ProMix (standard) carb.

1. Use the ES composites pipe, the biggest longest one they make for the 1.40. It has given the best power and the best transition.

2. Keep the engine rich on the top end. It is VERY easy to set it too lean.

3. Run 25% nitro. This will help a lot with the rich midrange the ProMix carb has.

4. Run either a YS or OS 4-stroke plug.

The best solution to the rich midrange is the MC carb, but these tips will help a lot when using the standard carb.

Webra 145 AAR / need help....
 

Mike, Mike, Mike (Austin),

I'm the guy that helped you at the LARKs contest. I can't believe you're returning the Webra. It was running great after we worked on it at LARKS. Excellent low idle and good transition. The problem with yours before we tuned it was that it was way too rich on the low end. Have you flown it since? Have you had problems?

I have two Webras (actually one's the Bully with a two plug head, but otherwise the same engine), and both run like horses (if you know how to tune them). BTW, I have the standard carb. Mike, you've seen mine run at two contests, I never have any tuning problems. In fact, with the exception of richening it a click or two as it's breaking in I never touch the needle.

glowplugboy, I don't really think it's fair that you're bashing this engine. With all due respect you guys simply didn't know how to tune it because you're experience isn't with pumped engines. After your 12 hours of unsuccessful attempts it only took us about 12 minutes to get it running great at Larks. And if you noticed there were about five other guys standing around that all knew exactly what to do to get it to run correctly. That's because they're familiar with engines of this size and pumped engines. Hey, honestly, when I first got this engine I was puzzled too until one of my flying buddies that has flown them for a few years told me what to do. After that I had no problem.

Here are the key points I've found with this engine.

1. From the factory the pump pressure is almost always too high. I had to back the pump pressure off of both of mine. That means turning the pump screw counter clockwise. I ended up with about five or six threads showing. I think I backed off 1 to 1 1/2 turns. Start at 3/4 turns out and then slowly move it back until you don't have any flooding problems. When the pump pressure is too high what you'll notice is that you can practically have the high end needle closed and it will still be gargling rich and blowing all kinds of smoke.

2. The low end normally needs adjusting. To do this let it idle at around 1900 to 2000 rpm if it keeps dying it's probably too lean (which normally isn't the case from the factory). Once you've got it successfully idling at 2K or so let it sit and idle for about 20 or 30 seconds then try revving it up. If it sputters and has trouble revving up then it's too rich. Reduce the low end needle 1/8 turn at a time until you can go from idle to wide open without it sputtering.

3. Use synthetic fuel.

4. Be sure and use a fuel filter in front of the pump input.

5. Use after run oil (especially when you go to humid Nederland :) ). At the Nederland contest I didn't have any after run oil with me and I drove the plane home in my cool car then put it in the hot garage and forgot to put the after run oil in it. It then sat there for about four weeks without running. Next time I flew it died on the second flight. I pulled the engine apart and the back bearings were rusted BIG TIME (this was with about flight 60). After replacing the bearings it runs great again.

cd3217, try the things I've mentioned if you haven't already. From your initial description it sounded like it was just lean on the high end. After the engine starts breaking in you will get to a point where it starts leaning out on uplines. This will cause it to sag and not reach top RPM when trying to pull over the tops of loops or on verticals. To correct this all you need is to richen it one to three clicks. I think this is pretty typical as it breaks in. Another reason it may lean out on uplines is if the pump pressure is too low, but I find this doubtful since you never backed your pump off and it flew fine initially.

If none of this works then next thing I'd check is to see if you have rusted bearings. You can easily pop the pump off of the back and take a look at the bearings. Even though the engine is relatively new if the climate and shelf time are right the bearings could have rusted. Rusted bearings also results in the behavior you've described. If none of this works then perhaps you do have a clogged pump, however I'd check everything else first because that pump is pretty tricky to disassemble and pretty sensitive. If you do disassemble it do it on a CLEAN table.

One thing you may want to try before disassembling the pump is to pull the fuel line off of the carb and turn the engine over with a starter. If the pump is working you will see it pumping fuel out the tube that's normally hooked to the carb. This won't show you if there is a "slight" problem with the pump but it will let you know if there is a major problem with the pump.

Best of luck,
Keith

Webra 145 AAR / need help....
 

I agree with Tony on the OS 4-stroke plug. However, I use 15% Magnum fuel.

Keith

ES pipe
 

Tony I know you love the ES pipe but have you guys tested the Webra 1100/260? My friend has done some pretty extensive pipe testing and he thinks that's its the best one. The pipe is a shorter version than the Greves that Piedmont sells. I could see where the 25% would help transition but it goes against my cheap fuel point.
Also I wanted to ask everyone using the engine how are they doing with fuel economy?
Mike

Webra 145 Fuel Economy
 

At times I can get two full Masters sequences done on a 16 oz tankof Powermaster 15/16. Other times just a few manuevers short of it before the engine gives the warning.

Fuel Economy
 

The fuel economy on my Webras is awesome. I have a 21 oz tank and I can fly for 18 minutes and still have 1/4 to 1/5 of a tank left. This is flying the intermediate pattern.

When I practice I can fly the pattern three times at a comfortable pace, plus spend some time working on specific maneuvers and still land with plenty of fuel.

Keith