Pattern?
 

I have seen patern before and honestly was bored to death so I heard if you do pattern flying first it willl help with your 3d manuvers. So what patern shipe is best would like to be able to run a .90 2stroke or above on it. Also what kind of manuvers are involved with pattern flying I have been flying 3d but what to learn how to do nice crisp moves to help better my 3d moves.\
Thanks

P.S.
I fly and electric ultimate bipe for 3d right now would this be a good pattern plane Why or Why not?
Thanks Again for al your help.

RE: Pattern?
 

Welp....good questions. Now bear with me, cuz now I'm gonna give you some good answers.

Most people are "bored to death" when they watch pattern. Why? Because pattern is for doing, not watching. It's hard to appreciate the skill involved when all you see is a plane flying very straight, and making large, round loop segments etc.

But try it :D THEN the boredom ENDS QUICKLY. Although beware, in almost every case, just flying a straight line for the first time will make you pull your hair out. And by straight, I mean DEAD straight...wings perfectly level, a person should be able to hold up a straight edge and your plane kiss the top of it all the way across the box. Sound easy? Now add wind.....and do the same. This is the FIRST basic principle of pattern flight. ALL manuevers begin and end with a straight line.

Pattern is where almost all of the top fliers get their start. That's not an accident. Pattern teaches you everything you need for a solid foundation of CONTROL over a radio control aircraft. From there, this is what makes an IMAC pilot whip butt, or a GOOD 3D pilot fly 3D manuevers and make it look smooth. But the control MUST come first, and this is where pattern becomes such a bread and butter activity for a skilled competetive pilot. There are a few exceptions of course, but they are just that...exceptions.

As for the question about the airplane.....the answer is maybe, maybe not. If it can fly straight and level, roll cleanly, and posess enough vertical power for an extended up line (and remain STRAIGHT) then maybe. If it gets blown around by the wind too much or is underpowered, well then you'd probably be better off getting a pattern type plane.

Lots of people will tell you all you need is an Ultra Sport or Kaos or whatever. I am not going to tell you that. I am going to tell you the truth :) If you want to fly pattern, get a pattern plane. Even if it's a 40-60 size, get something designed to fly PATTERN. The Widebody 60 from CA models is probably the best entry level pattern plane currently available. But remember, the bigger they are, the better they fly. So the closer you get to a 2 meter plane, the more you will enjoy it. If you want you could get an Epsilon (sister to teh Widebody) and it will 3d too. Although teh Widebody will 3d well in it's own right, the Epsilon is a bit lighter.

They also make a Widebody 40, and Hangar 9 has the Arresti 40 (which I have seen beat 2 meter planes in competition).

You're in Pensacola, I'd have a chat with Tony Stillman. If he can't put you on the right path, nobody can. I'm sure he would be glad to help.

Lastly, here's one most people won't tell you you NEED to do...COMPETE!!!! Guys in the Southeast are some of the coolest people on earth, and nothing FORCES you to improve your flying skills quite like flying in front of judges. Why not have some fun and get some wood for the wall while you're at it? Remember to enjoy the journey TO the destination, and you will find pattern is a very rewarding end in itself.

Now get out there and fly some lines bro [8D]

-Mike

RE: Pattern?
 

I am planing on competing I was looking for a 2 meter. Do you know of any 2 meter pattern ships. I know I love flying so Why not go ahead and get the right tool for the job. I have contacted tony and he hasn't said much lately but I will contact him latter How do they fly so striaight anyway. Also on the 2 meter planes can I buy one in a kit I have seen some 2m at the event here about 3 weeks ago and like them but just don't know where to find one.
Thanks for all the help and information

RE: Pattern?
 

Go to the NSRCA.ORG website and click on pattern links on the bottom left of the page. There are several pattern suppliers there. They have anything you could want and would be glad to answer your questions also.

RE: Pattern?
 

EXCELLENT, then you're halfway there already. My first pattern plane was a scratch built Typhoon 2000, so I can relate to the right tool for the job thing.

Kits....well, there's a lot, but not many in wood that are 2 meter. There are plans for Typhoons, but they have to be scratch built and teh designs need to be updated. Not that they don't fly great, they do....but to WIN they need a little more tweaking.

Plenty of glass/foam kits available, including Tony's Panacea. The best kits are by ZN Line, but try to get one :D

Also you can get a used pattern plane, but be CAREFUL because if someone is selling a pattern plane, 90% of the time there's a good reason for it unless they are just quitting. An active pattern flier doesn't sell thier main bird unless there's something wrong with it, or it's worn out. Or like Troy and just goes through planes like most people change underwear :)

Yep look at www.nsrca.org under pattern links and start clicking. Also look under merchandise in the swap shop section, there's a few good ones in there.\

How do they fly so straight? Practice and more practice. Mastery of the left stick is crucial if you want to win. Wind correction takes a lot of time to learn properly, and even top FAI pilots are still learning every day....because every day is different. Today you may have to learn how to keep your plane out because tehre's a nasty crosswidn in your face, and tomorrow it's quartering behind your back....the next day it's shifting back and forth, gusting....etc... so you have to burn a lot of fuel and fly no matter what. Because I garauntee you at a contest you can count on at least a 20 mph crosswind from your weakest direction, whatever that happens to be. The best thing is the next time you're at the field, fly straight and level all the way across the box (60 degrees to either side of your center line) and then execute a half reverse cuban 8....then intersect the SAME line at the SAME altitude at the SAME distance away from you and fly straight and level to the other end, where you execute anotehr half reverse cuban 8.....rinse and repeat until you're low on fuel. Sound boring? It is somewhat, but you'll be out of fuel before you can blink, and won't feel like you have improved a whole lot. So you do it again...and again...and again...until you can do that every time, in any condition, no matter what. THEN and ONLY then do you begin adding other manuevers, such as ROUND loops (try that one too hehe), 2 point rolls with the pause directly on the centerline, a perfectly symetrical double immelman without rolls, a full roll without dipping the nose or changing your heading at ALL.....etc. If you get this far, you won't need me to tell you anything else, you'll be ahead of 99% of the other guys out there already.

-Mike

RE: Pattern?
 

Ok thanks i have no problem in wind If I can fly my 14oz foamy in 22mph of wind easily than a 12 pound plane will be no problem. One time I tried to see how much I could fly in neadless to say 30mph of wind is to much:).
Thanks

RE: Pattern?
 

I like the Panacea but can you give me a web for zn line. Which plane would be best i would like to get an expert plane so I could grow into it because I can't afford to buy new planes all the time I would like to find one I like and make a mold of it and make many copys of the plane. What size is the Panacea and do you have any suggestions for the znline planes.
Thanks.

RE: Pattern?
 

Well the ZN supreme is the best ZN has to offer, the best of the best so to speak. But there are none to be had in the US right now...there is a waiting list though through www.centralhobbies.com


The Panacea is a full 2 meters long, and a 74" wingspan. It also has a very large fuse, which is a good thing.

Also check out www.aeroslave.com and look at the Symphony. It's brand new, they haven't even stamped out the first production plane yet. But this thing will be the hottest American plane out there, and I'm betting it will rival the best ZN has to offer. It should be just a couple months before it's ready, if that long.

BTW if your plane is 12 lbs, you're overweight. The limit is 11 in pattern.

It's not so much the plane that costs so much, but the equipment. With a 2 meter plane and an 11 lb weight limit, things get tricky. And that's where the dollars come in. The lighter high performance stuff costs money. There are guys who have been very successful with much less and much more standard equipment, but at the very LEAST you'll want a good reliable engine and quality coreless servos. And that's where the cost starts to rise from there. How much do you want? How light do you want to get, and how much precision do you need? That's a judgement call, and only you can make it.

-Mike

RE: Pattern?
 

Hey Sky, Mike has answered a lot of questions but you asked about why the Ultimate wouldn't be a good pattern plane and why pattern planes fly straight.

1) The Ultimate is soooo short coupled that it is by design, not smooth in its movements. I've had several and this is the reason. Couple that with many 3D pilots have their throws simply too high or too much surface movemtent. Not a bad thing but contrary to flying smoothly and making multiple extremely small adjustments to ail, elev or rudder to fly straight or wings level. If you can add a ton of expo, and dial the rates down to a minimum, the Ultimate will fly well, but at these rates wouldn't 3D well.

2) Pattern planes don't fly any straighter or handle the wind any better than other planes!!!!! Wind still effects them and poor piloting still effects them. Watch a pattern pilot land on a crosswind day, and he has that plane crabbed all the way down to 2 inches high then adjusts the rudder to touch down.
Flying straight, consistant, smooth radius', same sized loops, wings level all comes from 2 things, Practice, Practice practice and a will to accomplish flying in this manner. As Mike said, boring to watch, but when you're trying to make the plane fly a specific course, one day wind in your face, the next day wind at your back 10 mph, next day down the runway 20mph(you get the idea) the boring is off it pretty well. I still after a number of years enjoy trying to fly a specific smooth prescribed way.

At the TOC most of the pilots had an early start in Pattern and their freestyle routines, although with lots of 3D, were always in control. When I first learned to do a snap I had no way knowing which direction or orientation the plane was in until after the snap, as an example. These guys have total control as Mike said, because of the basics learned.

Good luck.

ed

RE: Pattern?
 

Hey Sky,
Just my 2 cents. I would go with an ARF like the Focus II. Use a very reliable engine and get good servos. The problem with building a kit is that it must be precise or you can throw it in the trash. Start with a Focus II (by the way there is a real good build site on here for that airplane. The guys at Piedmont will help you with any questions. Get an engine like an OS-160 that will be reliable for you. Once you've got it going, then get you a kit that you can start on. In the mean time you can be practicing and learning everything you need to know. Tony would be glad to help you with any setup questions or I would be glad to help you. (I live in Navarre and fly out at Holley) There is nothing more frustrating than not being able to practice if you have problems with your airplane and motor. I think the Focus II can be had for around $750.00 and the OS for around $250.00 You buy a PL or ZN kit and you'll have a beautiful kit, but your looking at BIG BUCKS and that's before a motor. If your practicing for 3D then go with a nice ARF.
Greg Grigsby

RE: Pattern?
 

I'm building the panacea now....... It is supposed to fly like the smaragd from ZN and at half the price. I will be letting you know how it flys but i wont be done with building it untill late summer. You can look at one of the panacea thread's and you can get more info.

RE: Pattern?
 

For servos I was thinking of running JR 8101 Ultra Precision. Any servo suggestions I want them to reat quick and be light as possible. Also on the enigne i plan on running an o.s. 160 or Mintor 170 not sure what pipe yet(need help on this). The plane I plane on flying is a Panacea. What is a nice light reciver. What else do I need? Would this be a good competition setup? Aso I plan to runn carbon fiber landing gear and wing tube If it has one I think it will help lighten it up and strenghten it a little. i have dealt with carbonfiber alot and like it where can i get these replacement parts. I might go with the o.s. 1.60 FX-Fi fuel injection engine Has anyone run these do they do good. Also how do I get the exhaust to the back on a plane with side exhaust run it sideways I don't realy want to cut a hole in the side of the cowl.
Thanks

I am going to talk to tony about it and see what he says about the plane i think he has one if I am not mistaken. Also Isa a prophecy or hydeout anygood. Well anyway thanks I will call tony tonight and see what he thinks about the plane. Does it knife edge or hover or flat spin very well?

RE: Pattern?
 

That would be a good FAI setup.......mine is set up for masters quality. it comes with CF gear in the kit also i would go with the mintor because it is lighter and has only a few hundred rpm difference. I hope to get mine in the 9.5 LB range.

RE: Pattern?
 

Allright Sky, here it is. pay attention, there will be a quiz :)

Panacea
Mintor 170 (get from Aeroslave and specify standard mintor header)
ES carbon pipe (2C140L80)
JR DS8411SA on the rudder and elevator
JR DS9411SA on the ailerons
JR 331 on the throttle
Receiver...don't skimp here, use the best PCM of whichever brand you prefer
Battery-well, I use NiMH 5 cell 1650s from radical R/C with a 5.4v regulator
Use honeycomb carbon plates for the internal structure
ALL MK ball bearing hardware throughout

There ya go, one whoop ass pattern set up from hell. It doesn't get much better than that, but your pockets had better be deep. But if you fly PATTERN with it, it'l last forever and a day.

-Mike

RE: Pattern?
 

I'm building a Panacea right now if you want to look at one. Tony also just finished his. I'm using an OS-160FI and Tony has a DZ in his.

RE: Pattern?
 

Here are some photo's of my Panacea with an OS160 engine. I used the Hatori wrap around header. I did not need to cut out any holes on the side of the cowling for clearance of the header. You just need to center the header to pipe coupler in the center of the chin cowl and pipe floor area. This can be done using the Hyde type of mount without final drilling the fire wall until everything is fit up. The cowl area is sooooooooooooooo wide on the Panacea, you can hold a dance in the engine compartment.

Good luck - Steve

RE: Pattern?
 

Waht is the difference between masters and fAI. Also to cut the weight I plan to run duralite batteries the 1900mah I believe. swk551 Is your covered with carbon fiber. Also Could you give me a price list for all the servos.
Thanks

RE: Pattern?
 

Steve has one of the first ones i think so his is different. I am also going to run the duralite 1900. Masters is the top AMA class and FAI is world class so it is harder.

RE: Pattern?
 

Are those serovs all digital That can be a bit pricey Will I need 2 alieron servos.

RE: Pattern?
 

I flew the Panacea with standard corless JR4131 servos on ailerons and elevator and a JR4731 servo on the rudder. The Panacea flew fantastic. Currently I fly the Eclipse with the JR digital servos. The digital servos lock in better, but if you have standard corless servos laying around, I would not be afraid to use them. Now wish my flying skills could catch up to the plane's performance capabilities.

Steve

RE: Pattern?
 

yes you will need 2 aileron servos, and they are about $94 a piece. The rudder and elevator servo are $99 a piece. The throttle is about $30 I think.

See? this is where the price goes up :D

Keep adding. Heh.

-Mike

RE: Pattern?
 

Steve,

How soon will you be flying the Panacea?...

Would love to see it fly with the OS160 at Jetero classic...


Mark

RE: Pattern?
 

BTW, a properly set up pattern plane will hover, knife edge better than any plane you've ever flown, and flat spin with a decent chance of recovery :)

If you want to get into harriers and such, I would strongly advise against it. A good one will do it, but the time and money you'll have tied up in it, you shouldn't risk it.

In short, a well set up pattern plane will fly better than ANY plane you've ever had your hands on. PERIOD. You just have to feel one to understand, really.

Hydeouts and Prophecys are fine, but they are slightly dated. You really wouldn't be able to notice a HUGE difference until you got up to advanced, possibly masters. In the wind however, a Prophecy will dominate. Nothing penetrates like that plane, wind just rolls off of it.

I'd seriously think about that Symphony from www.aeroslave.com that thing looks AWESOME.

-Mike

RE: Pattern?
 

My Panacea had a very short life due to a brain fart. I pulled the wrong freqency pin. I have two Eclipses now. Todd Blose should have his Panacea at Temple this weekend. BW Ponder should have gotten his Panacea trimmed out by now. He'll probably bring it to Jetero. Maybe he will have it at the field. I could never get reliable runs with my OS160's. I have now set all my planes up for the OS140EFI. These engines never seem to have problems short of replacing the rear bearing from time to time.


Steve

RE: Pattern?
 

Yes it looks good but how does it fly. Is it a 2meter?
Thanks