F3a The Future
 

What do people think is the next trend in F3A to come? We have had the 60 sized pattern planes, the 120 sized sleek pattern planes like sequels, toplines, etc. Then came the bulky 120 sized pattern planes with retracts, and now the bulky 140 sized pattern planes with fixed gear.
Whats next , Bigger planes with bigger engines or even petrol engine.

What are our views, what way do you think F3A will go or even should go, Do you think it is getting too expensive for young pilots who are the future of pattern flying and do you think that these new high tech models are taking away some of the competition. etc.............


Lets hear your views???

F3a The Future
 

Definitely getting out of reach of the average modeler. Way back when, when all you needed was a decent .60 , every field had someone practicing pattern, now all I read in the mags is 'pro-built' models with 4 figure price tags and engines to match, most people can't even think of getting into that, and we know that turning up with a little 60 model will get us laughed at!

F3a The Future
 

If people are serious, and want to put in the time for a cheap affordable pattern, then I think its possible.
The next trend.....Hmm, so farm it is aiming at smaller wingspan, which will last a little while, then it'll go back to bigger. I do think that larger surfaces will happen soon though, don't know why, but I just think so. THe next thing after that, I suppose larger engines, as the planes are getting light enough to accept them. But, this is only what I think will happen.

F3a The Future
 

Hi All
I am not a competing Aerobatic pilot but i do fly aerobatic aircraft. Mainly because a well set up pattern ship is a joy to fly instead of your average sports plane.
I think F3A is rapidly heading in the direction the jet scene is going "NUTS". We are talking about serious amounts of money tied up in an airframe. However at least the chances of losing the lot with an F3A ship are limited which is not the case with a turbine.
But the point is that it will soon be strictly the domain of well healed pilots who can afford the initial sums involved. which are bordering on ridiculous sums of money.
If this is a hobby and a great one as far as I am concerned can we get some sanity back? Make it viable for people to get involved without re mortgaging their house and hopefully bring the fun back as I can for see in the not to distant future F3A becoming extinct at its own hands.

The above is my opinion and I await the flak

Mike

F3a The Future
 

No flak from me, Mike, I agree with every word! I've been in the hobby a fair while (30 years +) and seen it change beyond all recognition, especially in the last five years or so. There suddenly seem to be a large number of people able & willing to throw VAST amounts of money at the hobby. I'm just glad there is still a place for those who can fly as well as those who can buy!

Waiting to be hammered?!?
 

Guys, even though this looks like a mostly European thread so far, I would also like to comment on what's next for Pattern from my standpoint in SW USA. The original question asks what's next in pattern and then goes on in to the $$ aspect. I know it's getting expensive for a 1st class airframe, but flying a quality pattern plane doesn't have to be out of sight $$$-wise. Many times in this forum, they've referred to the Focus, Tai Ji, Zen, used planes, etc. They can be had for about $500 or less. Heck, a U-Can-Do from Great Planes can perform the entire pattern sequence when the surfaces are toned down alot and it's only $189. You also don't have to buy a YS DZ or OS 1.40 RX. Many people survive well with a Supertigre 2300 or OS 1.60, both under $250. They're plenty of used YS FZ's around for $300 also. I've been flying RC for around 20 years and I've never seen so many good quality ARF pattern planes available. It's like every major manufacturer decided to invest in pattern all at once. (Maybe they know something I don't)

I've been flying IMAC planes for about 4 years and eventually quit (along with my son). We had two 33% Edges with 100-sized engines that cost around $7K together when dolled up. This was what I considered getting out of hand. Each person has their own "out of hand" level and I understand that. IMAC planes just kept getting bigger, requiring bigger vehicles to carry them in driving up $$$, I finally gave up. Others haven't and are even going larger!!! I remember the last IMAC tournament I went to, there were 2 guys in Basic with 40% Extras custom built!!

What I'm trying to say is every aspect of this hobby is becoming a "spend major $$$ to compete" avocation. Look at helicopters, giant scale racing, turbines, etc. I think pattern guys have got it right by still limiting the size to 2mx2m and weight to 11lbs. This will hopefully keep the sanity in check.

To finally answer the question, I think that Dick Hanson has it right with the gas engine. The hours of practice and fuel bill can eat much of that discretionary income in a season. We did a study while in IMAC and the conversion from a huge Saito 1.80 to a gas engine would pay for itself in only one season. At that time, the engine was just getting broken in and would last for years.

That's just my $.02 worth :D !!!

John S. Johnson
Lubbock, TX

PS. I think pattern also keeps my flying skills honed the best and ready for turbines. The discipline is very helpful in all areas of this hobby.

What's Next in Design
 

My personal opinion more F3A Artistic Aero designs.....The little 46 sized 3d planes down't fly as well as the F3A designs. You need only look at Quique's Excellence fly to ask the question why anybody would ever build a 40% Extra in order to fly 3D....The F3A plan form offers so much more in terms of cost savings and performance.

Not to get off on a rant about it.....but I have been playing a bit with them and the F3A planes have lighter wing loadings, less weight and energy to manage and with the YS DZ and 140 2 strokes we now have the power...if setup properly....to handle an 11lb plane doing the ultimate in Artistic Aero......or FG1 aerobatics


As for strictly F3A designs.....Bipes are next! We now have the power to haul them. Bipes present a couple problems is complexity in trimming and setup.....but they offer huge advantages in drag, and slower speed flight. The designs have come around to where a 9.5lb composite bird could easily be turned into a a sub 5kg Bipe. I would expect a major competitor to have one out in the next few years....Frak took one to the worlds a few years ago and it performed well...but today we have the horsepower to haul it.....I bet there will be a very good design coming..

A new Pattern guy said to me recently he was going from flying Unlimited IMAC to Sportsman-Intermediate level pattern. The Technology was like changing from NASCAR to Formula 1....I think the F3A designs will continue to push the technology envelope and be a leading contributor to model design and development.

Troy

F3a The Future
 

I'd kill for a Pattern/AA (preferably AA) ARF for .90 size motors costing around 200. GP has shown this size and low price is possible with their U-Can-Do 3D, and it is selling like mad! That would help counter $$$$ problem.

F3a The Future
 

I agree with alot what is been said, let hear more about what you want to see in the future...

F3a The Future
 

Yes, it was simpler, and more accessible, but I don't see how we can roll back the tide of 'progress'. I doubt that I'll ever fly anything other than sports models, despite 30 years in the game, because I could never imagine being so devoted to one form of flying that I would be prepared to spend more than a year's disposable income on one model!

I still fly...rc sports, helis, glider and control line.

Complicated?
 

Yes it has gotten much more complex....

The planes have become much more precise, the equipment much more reliable, and the planes fly better than ever.

The Sequences have gotten much more complex and the planes have evolved to handle the requirements....


The world community and the CIAM has driven this complexity.

back in the good ole' days there were not maneuvers like hourglasses or 1 roll loops. The motors have evolved to handle the power needs of these new maneuvers. The snaps were not as prevalent....a plane being stalled one second and the very next moment completing a precise 4/8pt roll.....


So yes the complexity has grown.


I would not trade any of the current models to go back to the good ole' days. Yes we thought the Curare's and Aurora's flew like a dream.....but today those planes can't hold a candle to the current designs.

The Servos and linkages are much better also...the price you pay for a servo today in relative terms of performance is much cheaper than the good ole days....Yes a $100 servo is expensive but I can tell you the first ball bearing coreless motor servos I bough were in the $60-70 range and that was in 1985.....Since then the performance of those good ole' servos can't even run my Throttle today!

One manufacturer now has a "Sport" Digital servo out that is at $50 and will kick the butt of one of the 1985 servos and last longer.....The motor mounts used today help the planes last longer, and the radios of today allow for more options in fixing problems with your problem child planes......


I would not trade it for anything.


The price is relative and you can get by cheaper and still be competitive.


A wise old man told me one time, when asked why I was crashing planes and he was not...."Son in my planes I can't afford to have any equipment except the very best available" He reason was that he limited time to fly, build and enjoy the sport....He got sick of wasting his time on junk equipment and found that the extra few bucks spent was well worth it in the performance and the enjoyment he recieved.

So to say its too expensive.....you might better hop the fence to another game in town and tell them its too expensive.....$2500 for a turbine motor.....$1600 for a 150cc Gas burner.....Or how about $4000 for a 40% Fiberclassic Extra......The place to complain is in your market choices....If you don't like the price of a YS DZ then buy a Webra or an OS.....If you want the best engine for the job then buy the one that gives you the best answer...for my $ its the YS 140DZ....Same goes for servos...You can run Hitec std servos all you want....Good luck with them....For performance step up to the JR digitals and you will get it!

I have all top of the line equipment running YS 140DZ's the latest in JR digital servos, MK ball bearing links and aluminum servo horns all around.....and the most money you can wrap up in a pattern model is about $3000-$3500 using all top of the line stuff....and buying it all brand new. Most don't do this every model.....And most people don't have all top of the line stuff either!

There are lots of places in this hobby to spend your dollar...choose one and enjoy it.....Don't tell me that you want a rule that limits my spending choices.....I suppose I'm just not that liberal when it comes to models...I think I ought to be able to own as much as I choose and fly the level of equipment I choose.

If you choose the Focus, with a Webra, and Futaba 148 servos great....enjoy flying it...because it will fly it....maybe some more maintenance, or some more work on the pilots part...but it will do it all......So good luck with it.


Just my opinion


Troy Newman

F3a The Future
 

Honestly.. I'd REALLY like to see FAI opened up to 6kg. NO OTHER CHANGE. Don't make the airplanes bigger, just allow 1 more kilogram to open up the gas engines to be usable. Actually.. 1 pound more would be enough really.

With every sport out there.. people look at the top of the line, highest dollar airplanes the 'top' pilots are flying and decide "it's too expensive" but in reality, you can put a VERY good, Nationals winning caliber airplane together for UNDER $1000 minus the radio.

It takes a great deal of personal confidence to not buy what Chip, Quique, Jason, Kirk, Sean and others fly JUST BECAUSE THEY FLY IT. There's no argument the airplanes they're flying are very good, but they're not the ONLY good airplanes out there.

-Doug Cronkhite

F3a The Future
 

No, not gas! PLEASE!!!!

If they open it up to six kg, I really think that some smart ass is going to put a 50cc glow engine in there instead, which won't do much for the cost.

F3a The Future
 

What one person does isn't really indicative of the rest of the sport though. If the gas engines become feasible you open up the market a bit.

ZDZ-40 RE starts to look interesting as does possible new engines from a couple well respected manufacturers. Overall initial cost would be a bit less than a YS 1.40 DZ, with a lot more power, and a $2/gallon fuel cost, saving you a lot of money over the season in fuel alone. Then there is the ease of use. Set the carb and basically forget it.

The increased power available offers up some very interesting design possibilities too all staying within the 2m box. Especially if we get a slight weight increase to play with.

-Doug

F3a The Future
 

Imagine the power of a similar sized glow? Some rich people will use it, some more become sponsered, and before you know it, you have the same problem. Also, I beleive that they will also make gas engines pathetically expensive. Gas might come in for a little while, but I doubt if it will be here to stay.

F3a The Future
 

Doug you hit the nail on the head. I will be flying a gas powered pattern plane shortly. Yes it is over 11lbs. but only about 1lb. (Flying vs. Flying weight) more then most pattern planes that are not high tech. Larger wing chord about the same wing loading fueled and flying.

Did you get to fly Dicks petrol plane. What was your opinion of it.

F3a The Future
 

HI All, Very interesting thread,

If you want pattern + 3D on a .46 platform, the Hobby People Global Freestyle can do it all! I've had this plane for a winter fun plane, with Irine .53, and it has unlimted power. It rolls on a string and can 3-D very well - total cost Plane + engine = $300, using standard servos.

If you look at the different ways to send $$ and be competitive in a sport, pattern is one of the less expensive routes these days. The digital servos make any plane a better flying plane, and you need them from a .60 sized - 2m bird, same requirement. OS 160 on muffler pressure, $259, can use 10 or 15% fuel. Hardware, no one argues the ball bearing stuff is he best. However, many others, including myself have used the Sullivan 4-40 metal clevis with great success (now in Masters class). 2 Meter plane: Focus or Zimpro Marketing planes put you in the $590-$725 range for an ARC or ARF. Radios: in my opinion (I'm a field rep for Futaba), is that the Futaba 9C transmitter gives you the most capability for the least cost. However, some have mentioned that they don't like the feel of it compared to the 9WC or 10SX.

Bottom line: Yes it is expensive (...but I consder everything expensive!). However, "typically" your pattern plane will last hundeds - "thousands" of flights, if you maintain it well and fly it responsibly.

Jim Woodward
Field Rep, Team Futaba

F3a The Future
 

Well.. I don't agree, but that's a horse race in itself. I don't think a similarly sized glow engine would be practical, simply due to the fuel required.

If YS or OS was to make a gas engine for pattern then I agree with you.. It would be ridiculously expensive. On the other hand, we already have manufacturers out there making smaller gas engines and they're priced generally below the YS or OS 1.40's.

3W-24i - $449 (3W guys are flying this in a 10.5 pound AA airplane with incredible power available)
ZDZ-40 - $410 (Dick Hanson is using this engine now)

I have heard of a possible 34cc engine at roughly 2 pounds installed weight + exhaust and a 30cc engine at 1.85 pounds in development. These would both be produced from well known gas engine manufacturers and I seriously doubt the pricing would be above reasonable levels.

F3a The Future
 

I saw it fly.. didn't get to fly it myself. It looked very light with HUGE power available with instant throttle response. Very impressive.

I'm working on my own design currently and trying to get the weight down low enough to use the ZDZ-40.

F3a The Future
 

I once got a pattern plane to work out at less than $1500, using a CAModels Eclipse or Probuild Shadow, good Futaba coreless servos, OS 160, and other good stuff.

F3a The Future
 

By the way, to clarify what I said above. If you look now, the DZ and RX are pattern specific, and that to me, is why they are expensive. They have a market in their claws. If a gas engine market opens up, the same will happen. There will start to be some pattern specific engines, and they will be expensive. I know that they are at a different league, but picture the price of a DA 150, but smaller. It will have all these cool little pattern features, and will be very expensive. You'll see!

F3a The Future
 

I feel people think gas powered models are next to come, how will this change the design of F3A planes?, maybe Troy Newman is right, perhaps gas powered bi-planes are next to come.

I really can't see any changes soon, I think the same style/types of models will be flown in Poland at the World's that were flown at the European's.................

F3a The Future
 

I think gas engines are a viable alternative right now, but to stay under the 5Kg limit is the big challenge. If enough interest is generated in gas powered pattern ships then somebody will make an engine to fit the current regulations. It may be pricey at first, but if it is successful the price will probably drop some.
If the cost of fuel is really that big a deal then fly a .90 sized plane. There are several great kits available (especially from Japan where .90 sized planes are considerably more popular than here in the USA).
As for the future - I don't see any radical changes in the near future. The equipment we have now is fantastic (I started flying in 1969) and priced quite reasonably. The single most expensive item now, seems to be the kit itself. However, there are still some reasonably priced kits available (the EMC, the Hydeout, the Entropy, the Temptation). MK has just released an all wood 2 meter kit (the Topstar) which should cost less than $500 delivered here in the USA.
Older designs still fly very well. The secret to success in competitive aerobatics is still PRACTICE :D
See you at the practice field!!

F3a The Future
 

I'm sitting hear reading this thread that I have an aspiration to begin Pattern flying either this year or next. My problem doesn't come from shelling out money at the begining it's the fact that if I get good enough I'll be forced to spend the money on a bigger and better ship.

What I don't seem to understand is aren't most of the manoevers flown at well below full throttle, and if so why the need for carbon/kevlar - fuel injection and more power. Assuming what I've heard is right could I not get away with a Balsa fuse - foam core wings and a Thunder tiger 1.20. I know it's like F3000 is to F1 but could I still not be able to get away with it.

I look at the prices for even a radio these guys are using and I could buy a half decent used car for that much.

F3a The Future
 

Yes, although the power is there for those huge verticals, when you are rolling and stuff, and you really need that last ounce of power to bring you over. (At least thats what a friend told me!)
I also think that in very windy conditions you can run out of power fast.