Snaps and spins and zeros, oh my!
 

Ok a good point was brought up in another thread. one that simply won't die.

Snaps and spins.

let's start with snaps. Does anybody have any video of a GOOD snap vs a BAD snap or a zero? We live in the information age, I REALLY don't think it would be too much of a strecth to come up with some video. if you guys can't come up with any clear examples, I'll be happy to film a slew of snaps and spins and we can critique them. This will get everyone who has access on the same page.

So what are we looking for in a snap?

1. Snap entry. This is the "break". How do you know if a plane broke or not?
2. Stalled condition, autorotation about the stalled wing. This is the tell-tale "coning".
3. exit and recovery. Back to normal flight, unstalled.

Notice the word "displacement" is nowhere to be found? Although we all know if you really dig into a snap, that sucker displaces. Depending on the plane and the wind, sometimes it's not noticable and sometimes....CLEAR THE PITS!!!!

So how do we, the unwashed masses, know the difference between a sure-nuff snap and a "twinkle roll"? (Thank you Dave Lockhart for that one!) You know, the infamous CPLR and QQ really fast roll with a little wiggling to make it look sorta snap-ish. I have seen quite a lot of these, and from some really unexpected places.

Here's the problem: If a plane SNAPS, you know it if you get a break, cone and some displacement. These remove all doubt. They require a lot of elevator, a good bit of aileron, and not nearly as much rudder as most people use (if you want to exit cleanly).

Another problem is that a snap really is set-up dependant. if your plane is set up with the CG too far forward, not enough elevator, or just a crappy design, it ain't gonna snap clean. You know these, you bury the sticks, the plane wallows, and if it snaps, it snaps DEEP and you have to let off everything at least 1/4 turn before level or you'll miss bad. Also speed into the snap has a lot of effect. Not enough, the plane wallows. Too much, and you get a blinding "mega snap" (anyone that was at Andersonville this last year saw one of these, along with a horrific "crack".)

The MAIN rpoblem with snaps is when people ride that line between a snap and a twinkle roll......so they do it, and the judge freezes......was that a snap? Was it a zero? If you zero him, he'll get angry. If you score him, his competitors may get angry. Either way, he rode the fence but you, in the chair, are going to be at fault no matter how you score it.

Then, enter the "snap nazi". This is the judge that zeros everything he sees. he usually has his own criteria for snaps, and they aren't in the rules. he applies logic (first mistake) and if you don't show him the almost out of control 20 foot displaced snap with an exaggerated pitch before hand, guess what you'll find on your score sheet? ZERO.

So what's the solution? My first instinct would be to clarify the actual rule.....AGAIN....but as we have seen, only some people are going to even bother to read it anyway.

My suggestion is remove all doubt. Spend time with your plane and work the set up until you can hit it, every time. it had better break, cone and exit, and hold something close to it's line.

If you want set up tips, I'm sure people will be happy to share.

MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!! Now I'm going after some egg nog...

-Mike

RE: Snaps and spins and zeros, oh my!
 

Snap-rolls have always been a hot debate because everyone has a different idea about how they should look. Snaps look like barrel-rolls when the airframes were the most stable. When we tapered the wings way down snaps looked like fast axial rolls. I guess the best snap would be somewhere in between. The whole issue is stupid because the way a snap looks depends on the airframe design and not the pilots ability, all a pilot can do is enter and exit at the right place. The pilot should not be judged on the way the airframe looks when its doing its own thing.

RE: Snaps and spins and zeros, oh my!
 

I've not flown competitively for some time (approx 8 years) but as I'm easing back into the pattern scene, I'm quickly realizing that some previously problematic aspects of flying/judging remain unsolved. Sure the designs are quite a bit different and the power available nowadays almost takes that variable out of the equation, but the issues of snaps, proper spin entry, wing-overs vs stall turns, judging errors including "halo effect" and the "error of central tendency" etc seem to be alive and well. And I suppose that's understandable given the subjective nature of pattern judging. If we don't accept that as competitors, we'll end up screwing ourselves into the ceiling from frustration.
As eluded to earlier, education, exposure and an intimate knowledge of the rules will help but will not be the cure all. I don't mean to slam the knowledge of pilots out there but generally speaking, I think it's safe to state our knowledge of the pattern rules is not as good as what we might think. Even FAI pilots could use a little "groundschool" from time to time.

How can we help mitigate this problem? Perhaps what Mike Hester stated earlier is the type of info that could be incorporated into comprehensive read-ahead packages for pattern judges and contestants. These would be for use at pattern seminars etc or by Contest Directors during pre-competition pilot meetings to review some of the finer judging points while all the contestants are present and hopefully listening. How often have you heard a CD take the time to brief in detail some of the finer judging points that we're discussing here? Perhaps video footage showing good and bad examples of stalls/spin entries, snaps etc could supplement nicely.

At some point, I think we've all felt as if we've been judged unfairly at times....or maybe conversely we may have received the benefit of the doubt. At the end of the day, it's our responsibility as competitors/judges to stay well informed and current. And remember that we're here to enjoy ourselves and reap the benefits of a great hobby.

RE: Snaps and spins and zeros, oh my!
 

Little bored are we Mike? :)

RE: Snaps and spins and zeros, oh my!
 

This question of snap judging has gone on for as long as they've been in schedules, and I can't see it ever being resolved---for long.
All I've ever managed as a flyer is to try to discover what the current judging flavour is, and do them that way, that day....
One thing I've never resolved is ; how can a snap with an odd fraction (eg 1 1/2, ) finish on-line in all three axises? since there has to be some "coning", and wings-level is undoubtedly the judging criterion for the finish of the manouevre, how can there not be some deviation from the flight path, in either the vertical or horizontal planes, or both, part-way round the wing's rotation?

RE: Snaps and spins and zeros, oh my!
 

There should be some deviation in a true snap thats 1 and a half.
Your comment that you should fly to the style thats getting judged is so true. When the best flyers in the world are getting judged for doing "Twinkie" snaps with no deviation in flight path then that's what I would be doing also if I flew with them. The problem is the judges in the US are looking for the a more defined break in pitch. This leaves a bit of a dilema for the guys on the US team because they have to fly different snaps here vs: when they fly in the worlds. Mike

RE: Snaps and spins and zeros, oh my!
 

If you read all the discussions about snaps and spins it's obvious to me everyone who has
ever flown a good pattern ship knows what a good snap and spin should look like, but it's
just human nature to push the limits of the rules to make it easier to complete the routine
and keep the airplane on line for the next maneuver. If I was CPLR, or any other competitor,
and I was getting 9's and 10's for those exaggerated rolls they calls snaps I would keep doing
them too until someone had the balls to step up and say "Hey those aren't really snap rolls so
they should be scored zero". In every competitive sport people are going to get away with what
the officials or judges let them get away with and that's OK with me as long as everyone is
judged the same which doesn't always happen.

tommy s

RE: Snaps and spins and zeros, oh my!
 

I just can't understand why people are stuck in the stone age regarding the snap.
Why are folks defining it as per an old fashioned, ful sized maneurver?
Nice clear break, stalled condition with well defined coning? Hello, this is almost 2007... it's been refined guys.
As hard as it seem for many people to accept, CPLR ...QQ... and the others have just held up the finger to the "true snap" and invented the F3A snap.
And thank God for that. It looks great, it present perfectly, it doesn't F-up the flow. It's a true snap... a F3A 21st century snap!
Why should you be arguing for keeping it as is? If being genuine to real, full sized flying was our credo, loops wouldn't be round, and rolls wouldn't be axel.

They way some of you are protecting you're snap territory is rather humours...
bwik's flag waving speech in the other thread, Mug's and Co rallying the wagons to form a circle...
it's as if you believe you're the keepers of the Holy Snap, to be ever protected and to hell with those that don't conform...
It's like you're doing it properly... and CPLR isn't. Man, thats getting dull to listen to.
Some have even suggested ´he can't do a "real" snap thus he's invented his own version. Jez'.

The old fashion snap sucks. It looks dreadful, horrible and plain stupid in a modern pattern program.
You guys need to stop complaining about CPLR not having to perform " US orthorised real snaps"... it's just silly.
What you need to start doing, is complaining about yourselves having to perform old fashion snaps.
Snaps that have no place in todays pattern flying.
They're your judges... get 'em to walk up.

RE: Snaps and spins and zeros, oh my!
 

Maybe I am way off base here but are the real full size areobatic airplanes performing a snap? Then again maybe I'm off base and we do not follow so much what is performed in real airplanes and do our "own thing" per the schedules.

Frankly I'm a little old fashion here and catching up with the times of the "new Pattern". Seems to me that some of these "snaps" would snap the head off of a real pilot.

Mike R

RE: Snaps and spins and zeros, oh my!
 

All,

I suggest that we read in detail the new rule book for 2007. There has been a lot of work to improve the descriptions and downgrades. Please refer to the following link:

http://www.modelaircraft.org/comp/07...Aerobatics.pdf

If we are going to discuss these issues please read first the rule book and if we don't understand something let's ask the question in this forum. I think there are a lot of experienced pattern judges and pilots out there that can help in the interpretation of the rule book.

Regards and have a nice Christmas day,

Vicente "Vince" Bortone

RE: Snaps and spins and zeros, oh my!
 

I forgot to add. Snaps and spins descriptions are in pages RCA20 and RCA-21 of the rule book

Vicente "Vince" Bortone

RE: Snaps and spins and zeros, oh my!
 

Mmmm... worms.... [:-]

bla bla, forgive me if I'm wrong, but you don't HAVE to read this if it bores you. Also, full scale is just as accurate as F3A is. Maybe you've just seen some poor fullscale pilots, but some of the guys that are on top of their game that I've seen that have scored consistently well at the WAC have been comparable to Quique, CPLR, Onda, etc.

Full scale airplanes and models are different when they snap. A model can only fake it. In a true snap roll, the airplane stalls, and then recovers. We really don't have the right wing loading and Reynolds numbers to accomplish what we're trying to do. I agree with Mike's definition that he's put forth- except for the coning thing. To me, that's a little difficult to nail down. There does need to be a break and some displacement of the flight path. Model snaps are hard to judge because they happen so quickly, you have to break and then immediately add aileron or you're climbing because you really don't have the wingloading to cause the airplane to stall and then autorotate.

RE: Snaps and spins and zeros, oh my!
 

The AMA rulebook's description of what constitutes a snap seems very clear to me. The FAI rulebook is less descriptive --"fuselage attitude must show a definite break and separation from the flight path before the rotation is started"-- It also mentions that the aircraft must be stalled and that axial rolls disguised as snaps will be zeroed. Perhaps the FAI rulebook definition of a snap could be expanded to resemble the new AMA definition although I personally consider the present FAI definition as being adequate. As mentioned earlier, it comes down to judges having the kahunas to hand out zeros to high profile flyers. Short term pain for long term gain!

I disagree with Bla Bla ref getting with the times and accepting a new interpretation of a snap. Either we do it right or we change the term to something other than 'snap'........and change the accompanying rulebook definition.

RE: Snaps and spins and zeros, oh my!
 

Jeff, you also have to remember that the FAI rulebook contains rules for fullscale flying. A true snap is stalled, we're only mimicing that with models.

RE: Snaps and spins and zeros, oh my!
 

As long as you require a break (the severity of which can be quite plane specific), and minimal deviation from line, then you will always have guys flying with the most minimal break they can get away with. The less the break the easier the snap is to keep on line.

At the worlds in France snaps were scored on the following,

a) did he perform an axial roll?
b) did he perform a barrel roll?

If you answer no to the above then its scored as a snap following the 1/15 rule for every other downgrade in the snap. Some people got zeroed but not like it was in Poland :)

RE: Snaps and spins and zeros, oh my!
 

Nuttin like a good snap debate!!!!! ROFL!!!!!!!

Yeah, I was just trying to drag the bla-ber out of the Integral thread and get him in here ranting about us stupid arrogant Americans and our incompetent trying to rule the world judges. It worked!! LOLOLOL

Ya gotta love a guy that posts that much anti-american venom under a name like "bla-bla". Do a search on the guy's post history, lotsa constructive stuff there!!

I love it. To heck with rules, let's just let the gods of pattern make up thier own and we are not worthy enough to lick thier boots, much less give a zeroed manuever a zero. maybe they'll "re-invent" straight flight too!!!! And hey thetre's that stupid antiquated box. Pfffffft who needs it.

Feelin the Christmas spirit,
-Mike

PS it really is an issue (still) and needs to be discussed. I still think video is the key.

RE: Snaps and spins and zeros, oh my!
 

Speaking of video, I heard that all competition flights were going to be on video and instant replay available for questionable judging on snaps and spins. This was the reason for the NSRCA dues increase.:)

RE: Snaps and spins and zeros, oh my!
 

COOL!!!!!! That'll shake some things up ;)

-M

RE: Snaps and spins and zeros, oh my!
 

Derek Koopowitz said this about the increase..

Here is the reasoning for the dues increase...
We had a board meeting in November where we voted to raise the dues. We have not had a dues increase in a number of years and in that time postage has increased numerous times, and in addition to the postage increasing, we are also sending out the K-Factor 1st class mail which is a lot more expensive than bulk mail. We are also publishing a color front and back cover which again is a lot more expensive. We felt that the $10 increase was necessary in order for us to continue to publish the K-Factor in its current form..


As for the snap issue. It's a tough one. Its upsetting when you see someone do a flip roll or a big barrel roll and get scored on it.
Let's face it here, alot of this comes down to who's sitting in the chair anyway. If you have some person sitting there who fly's sportsman or intermediate, they may not know what a true "defined" snap is supposed to look like. Heck, maybe even some of the other classes also :)..
At contests I feel generally the best pilots win, but I do see some zero's that should be handed out and they aren't. This is hard to change because we use contestant judging. One person's idea of a snap isn't the same as anothers, obviously.
But, at the nats or even most contests, you see the same guys on top. Obviously they know something. Watch and learn I suppose.

Great idea on the video's Mike. I would be curious to see everyone's input from across the world on the same snaps..
I've had an idea for a website regarding this type of thing for a long time. I wanted to record someone that was pretty good, flying through all the sequences a few different times. Put them on a site for all to view. Break them down by manuver. But it would be hard to keep current as or the changes in sequences.

Maybe someday..

Chris

RE: Snaps and spins and zeros, oh my!
 

Hi,

At first, Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!

I don't really understand what you've been discussing here...It is well known that US has some of the best pilots and contributors in RC aerobatics such as C.Hyde, J.Shulman etc. but most of us should agree that CPLR is one of the greatest talents ever. Do you really think that CPLR is incapable of perfroming US style snaps?? The answer is obviously "no", but why doesn't he do that really?? I just wonder...:eek:

Personally I do not believe that there is a maneuver in RC aerobatics, either 3D/freestyle or pattern, that can not be performed by CPLR with a grade of 10/10. That's my opinion honestly. I've seen the man live a couple of times in shows and was incredible. His F07 video on rcmania is great too, his snaps look perfectly exetuted to me. I'm not a judge but I consider myself a great fan of the subject.

With respect to all.

Nick

RE: Snaps and spins and zeros, oh my!
 

I think Bla Bla has some good points although he has his tongue firmly planted in his cheek.
No matter how you define the snaps the pro`s will be able to massage them to get the best score ,
this argument is unimportant,
and all the effort too (over) define it is a waste of time because many are not able to perform the maneuver by the letter of the current law,thus,
the pros scores will often have a greater separation in the maneuver score
All current pattern type aircraft are capable of true snaps !! how deep we allow them to go into the stall during the snap is another story.
pro`s have a greater understanding of setting the airplane up for overall performance and not get stuck on just one maneuver
CPLR is a real Pro and will do what it takes to earn a score ,, does he often get help? Yes!,, it`s good to be the king.
thats the benefit of being the watermark.(World Champ)he earned it,,, with his snaps ,, Somewhat

it`s just like stall turns I used to watch the videos of the worlds from days gone by and thought they did awful stall turns
but they were scorable and safe.
getting a score is what matters.

You would be surprised if you knew the inputs some top fliers actually use to perform ,, spin entry's
snaps and so on.
watching the maneuver you would not know it ,, does that mean that the maneuver was not a snap,, It appeared to be ,,,,, huuuum ,you bought it scored it ,ECT , but the stick placement might be totally opposite of what is supposed to be, however all you observed was the airplane performing the maneuver,
it all boils down to getting scored!!

The guy who sells the maneuver the best earns the best scores
and the arguments mean nothing, its just pit talk We all do it.

Trust me, the American Influence on FAI maneuver Acceptance is very low Because of our involvement is low compared to the rest of the world. and we have not won the individual championships for quite some time.
Sometimes you have to get in lock step until you have the clout to implement change.
I`ve watched CPLR`s snaps at the worlds they were fast, the trained eye can see that it is a snap
thats why he is scored on them,they are not deep! snaps, but they cannot be called anything else.
They do not have the option for instant replay like the NFL.
It would be like saying because you can hover your airplane its A heli,,
like Chad said if it`s not a barrel roll ,, not a ,, axial roll >>>>>it`s a snap!!
he who presents his snap the best Earns the best Score..
I can trim and adjust my Airplane to do snaps that are deeper and just as reliable But thats my preference, Some judges may not buy it some May ,, but bottom line is My job is to earn a score and to find out what the judges are looking for according to current rules
not what I think they should be looking for :)
Bryan

RE: Snaps and spins and zeros, oh my!
 

Merry Christmas!!

- My opinion, when you are competing, if you want to win you have to know what the judges are looking for, 90% can't, thus they will not win.
- It is sad for all the not known pilots to be scored that bad, why?, usually I don't think they(judges) care if nobody knows you.
- The way the snap should be done in my opinion is, knowing the rule, and I don't have describe it, is to do the snap clear and as exaggerated(noticeable) as you can without deviating or unable to recover cleanly, I mean, the best you can and depending on the model, then hope the best from the Judges.

By the way, even tough this is an international site, it is still hosted in America, an we should all show the respect we all want in our respective countries.

I wish happy holidays to all.

RE: Snaps and spins and zeros, oh my!
 

Bryan:

Great to see you here on RCU, sharing some of that good cajun experience. Your post was pretty long though; I wouldn't want you to overdo it on your first post. You have to kinda work your way into it. Brett is looking forward to trying a Shinden, still searching for that ultimate answer.

Merry Christmas

Mike Wickizer

RE: Snaps and spins and zeros, oh my!
 

HAHAHA
been on these things before years ago.
sometimes you cast your pearls before the swine :)
and you don`t get nothing done in the shop.
But I enjoy the Joust

I am also waiting to fly the new Extreme Shinden
seems like some things never change.
I think BVM will get theirs before I get mine

RE: Snaps and spins and zeros, oh my!
 

Is the Extreme a 3d version?

Chris