Still having trouble keeping a slow roll axial.......
 

Greetings, I'm trying to re-learn some basic things and get them right, like keeping a slow (or any) roll axial. I saw a pattern or aerobatics website somewhere that had the basic maneuvers and stick movements once....... but where was it?

Thanks for any input on the slow roll or a website!

Ernie

RE: Still having trouble keeping a slow roll axial.......
 

Ernie,

Probably you got it at www.nsrca.org Also check the links provided.

Good luck,

Vicente "Vince" Bortone

RE: Still having trouble keeping a slow roll axial.......
 

Ernie, I'm also working on this aspect of flying and one thing I recently figured out -- after doing it wrong about 300 times! -- is that you really need to be careful about not feeding in too much rudder too early in the roll. This creates a yaw that causes the plane to change heading during the roll.

Think about it this way: if you're flying from your left to right, doing a right aileron roll, you first kick in left rudder causing a little drift away from your position (to the left), then a little down elevator -- which if kicked in too early can also cause a little more drift to the left -- and then right rudder as you roll from inverted. And since you're inverted the right rudder also causes a little drift to the left, so by the time you're finished you're way off line! If you're like me, you'll see that the drift is always away from the direction of the roll.[&o]

So perhaps try easing very smoothly into the rudder (and elevator) a little later and see if that works. I'm not there yet, but my axial rolls are getting better, for sure.

RE: Still having trouble keeping a slow roll axial.......
 

http://www.nsrca.org/d7/practice.htm

This may be what you're looking for.

RE: Still having trouble keeping a slow roll axial.......
 

I know this is asking a lot, I would like to find videos of complete sequence's. Sportman to advanced. Even a down load or buy it on cd. The reason in my area there are no pattern flyers or contest. I have been practicing basics but without someone to critique my flying I have to look at others to see if I am doing it right. Hope to eventually have some pattern contest at local club...sure beats flying around in circles.....thanks

RE: Still having trouble keeping a slow roll axial.......
 

yellerchamp, I understand your frustration with not having an actual, competent pattern flight to give you a visual understanding of what you should be practicing. The problem is that it is a practical impossibility to translate the movement of the plane through the sky on video. The choreography stretches over a few hundred yards of flight path from one end of the box to the other, and from low track to high track. The only way to appreciate the proportions of the flight pattern is to see it live, with full perspective. The video camera, in order to take in the full dimension of the pattern, must show the plane as a tiny speck, hard to see what's happening at airplane-size scale. If the video zooms in on the plane, then you lose the sense of proportion of the maneuvers. The blunt truth is there is no substitute for being there and seeing it done competently with your own eyes. You really need to hook up with a pattern flyer somewhere in your area, and if necessary travel a hundred miles or more to take in a pattern meet or get a coach to do a demo flight for you.

There were nine guys from Illinois flying at the pattern nationals this year. For everyone who went to Muncie, there are probably another three or four who wanted to go but couldn't. You need to find one of them who is willing to help you get started.

Every pattern guy I ever met had someone help him get started, and they pretty much all have a desire to pay back by helping others break in. If you don't get some response from Illinois pattern flyers reading this thread, then I would suggest you get in touch with NSRCA and work from there.

RE: Still having trouble keeping a slow roll axial.......
 

Hello guys,
good question Ernie!

I'm too practicing slow rolls during this weeks... I definitely agree with Bob regarding excessive rudder input!!!

In that regard is think the most useful suggestion has been given by Don Szczur, regarding rudder throw. He recommended to choose the full rudder throw (low rate) so that the plane "barely holds knife-edge".

I tried that setup, and suddenly my rolls got better!!! Other pilots prefer a greater rudder authority, but I find myself more comfortable with less throws.

Another important issue is CG. I've found that a forward one really helps the overall pattern flight: the plane tracks better and rolls are easier to perform without altitude or heading changes.

I suggest to try the above settings, I'm sure you will be happy with the results :)

RE: Still having trouble keeping a slow roll axial.......
 

Good tip you passed along there, stek!

I have triple rates set up on the "C" switch of my 9C, so I may reserve the middle position for slow roll settings.

RE: Still having trouble keeping a slow roll axial.......
 

Ahhh . . Slow rolls . . a pashion of mine (I really dig all rolling manoeuvers).

Basically, PRACTICE is the key . . BUT . . you need to know what to practice, otherwise you will practice mistakes, and there's no point in that :)

Set-up is a lot to do with personal preference. Personally, I don't use rate switches that much (although, with the new '08 schedules here, I probably will next year). I tend to use a LOT of expo, and "fly" the plane through manuevers.

Firstly, it's a good idea to have a plane that will comfortably fly Knife Edge (KE). If not, a slow roll is going to be hard work.

Begin by rolling to the KE position as you exponentially feed in opposite rudder to keep the plane level. As it continues to roll to inverted, proportionally release the rudder and gradually add just enough down elevator to again keep the plane level. As it rolls to the opposite KE position, proportionally release the down elevator while gradually adding rudder (same direction as the aileron imput you are holding). Continue the roll back to upright while gradually releasing the rudder. If the planes attitude has maintained a good, level axis, you won't need to add (and you shouldn't need to add) any up elevator at this point. The goal is to add these imputs in the right amount, and at the right time to provide level flight.

Things to practice:
1/ Finding the comfortable speed to provide consistent results. Ideally, this should be at the same speed as the rest of the schedule, but it is better to have a quality roll at this point in time.
2/ Holding the right amount of aileron to produce the desired roll rate. (a rate switch might be useful; here). It is important NOT to vary the amount of aileron through the roll. That makes the slow roll UGLY, messes with your timing, and gives you a 'down-grade' !
3/ Developing the "feel" for how much rudder and elevator to use throughout the roll, and when.

Lastly, DON'T just practice the schedule . . That's only ONE slow roll per flight. [:o] Do FIVE to TEN slow rolls per flight :), and do a LOT of flights. Eventually, your slow rolls will be on a "wire" ! :D

RE: Still having trouble keeping a slow roll axial.......
 

Ernie, One thing that shortened the learning curve for me was practicing them on the simulator. By working this way on them endlessly, I can now tell you all the ways a slow roll can be screwed up.

Here is a link to a site that has videos with commentary that helped me through the process. Certainly not a replacement for actual flying with a coach but defiantly a learning tool.

http://home.comcast.net/~scottcov/

RE: Still having trouble keeping a slow roll axial.......
 

I think one MAJOR point was left out in this discussion. The rest of this is useless unless you start by getting your plane properly trimmed. If the plane isnt trimmed to fly knife edge properly then you are just adding to your workload on the slow roll. Your rudder inputs may be inducing pitch inputs as well that can cause it to not be axial. If your plane has gone through all of the trimming tests and is properly setup then begin using some of the techniques above. I personally do not like using the full rudder deflection method. This doesnt work all the time because if you are doing your rolls down wind which almost all are, depending on wind speed you will have to fly a lot faster to maintain the same airspeed that your initial rudder setup was designed for. Also, i dont like having to move the stick from one extreme to the other throughout one roll. Just my opinion. The other method works, but I think in the long run, find one condition that your plane really likes to fly at and learn to fly that condition. You may end up setting up a condition for snaps or spins, but the less conditions and DR's you have, the less you have to think about it, and can concentrate on flying the plane. Flipping switches just adds to the pilots work load.

Just my .02,

Arch Stafford

RE: Still having trouble keeping a slow roll axial.......
 

Arch i thought you were in Israel. Probably safer then flying with Ken.

RE: Still having trouble keeping a slow roll axial.......
 

He's in the states until next weekend...

-M

RE: Still having trouble keeping a slow roll axial.......
 

I'm back at this moment. They had an issue with the training schedule in Israel. I was supposed to fly back yesterday, but I'm here for about another week. It's worked out well since its allowed me to be home with Tara after her ordeal last month with the bleed in her brain. She's doing much better now though. Still not total movement on her right side, but it is coming back slowly, and in another month or two she should be close to 100%. It's been a VERY long month. 33,000 frequent flyer miles since Aug 28.

Arch

RE: Still having trouble keeping a slow roll axial.......
 

Just heard about Tara. sorry to hear that.
Now in order of importance. especially if bill is there
1 do they have expo in a bottle?
2 are the women pretty?
if both are no that's bad
3 if #2 is yes do you think they'd want me? No not to leave. smart a**
4 if #3 is no maybe i should hold out for a russian women?
5 How is Israel? all they ever show on tv is the war zone.

RE: Still having trouble keeping a slow roll axial.......
 

Yes Arch, Couldn't agree with you more . .

Quote "Firstly, it's a good idea to have a plane that will comfortably fly Knife Edge (KE). If not, a slow roll is going to be hard work."

Sorry, I meant VERY comfortably :D

RE: Still having trouble keeping a slow roll axial.......
 

Gosh, you guys are GREAT! Lots to go over and practice, too. Thanks for the links.....

Has anyone done and 3D as well, and progressed their rolling techniques into the rolling harrier?

Thanks loads again,

Ernie

RE: Still having trouble keeping a slow roll axial.......
 

Hmmmmmm . . . sounds like you aint got a Pattern Plane, hey??????

Rolling Harriers uses basically the same technique (except MORE stick movement . . and you will need to use almost as much up elevator as down) . . BUT . . you need larger control surfaces using more throws, a rear-ward CG, and besides using the elevator/rudder control . . you need to balance the whole lot with VERY good throttle management as rolling harriers are performed in the "Stalled" condition. Basically, the plane is flying on thrust alone . . the airframe is not really "flying".

Why large control surfaces, and lots of throw? Make a mistake in a low, slow rolling harrier and you'll find out . . . if you're quick enough . . :D (plus, not a lot of airflow over these surfaces when the plane is in the "stalled" condition . . you need every thing you can get)

RE: Still having trouble keeping a slow roll axial.......
 

If you think of the (for a left roll) up, right, down, left.... as a 1, 2, 3, 4, sequence, is everyone beginning with the "right" as number one? Given that going left with the ailerons is first happening.

Thanks for the rolling harrier input also. As for the throttle blips in the rolling harrier, Jeff, would you say the blips usually come as approaching KE each time, or wings level, or whenever needed. It seems easier for me to think of it as a rhythm than just when needed, but that might not be the correct approach.

Thanks,

Ernie

RE: Still having trouble keeping a slow roll axial.......
 

1, 2, 3, 4 ?

I have never really thought about it this way, but simplistically, yes.

For a Rolling Harrier . . From Upright, you apply opposite rudder to the aileron imput first, then down elevator as it rolls on its back .. then the same rudder direction as aileron as it rolls to the opposite KE position . . then some up elevator (usually) as it approaches upright again . . and so on.

Throttle blips ?

NO, a “rhythm” is difficult with throttle . . it’s a matter of application as needed. Sometimes more . . sometimes less. As I said, it’s a matter of “balance”. Kinda like balancing a broom vertically in the palm of your hand . . you need to make adjustments as required, and as much as required to keep the plane “flying” .

Also, as I mentioned . . you need to practice VERY good throttle control. These maneuvers can’t be done with out good skill level in this discipline.

Cheers, Jeff

RE: Still having trouble keeping a slow roll axial.......
 

Also keep in mind that you need a good servo on the throttle.

I went along with what I thought was "tradition" by putting a cheap, slow, analog servo on throttle, but when I started trying 3D maneuvers I found it wasn't responding quickly enough. When you're doing a stalled maneuver low, you want throttle NOW!![sm=omg_smile.gif]

RE: Still having trouble keeping a slow roll axial.......
 

Yep . . then you need a QUALITY engine, tuned for performance AND reliablility. Can't just have a motor that'll run OK ! !

Surprisingly, even in this slow, floating condition, there is still a reasonable amount of RESPONSIVE power required. You need some solid bursts on occasions.

Ohhhhhh . . we could go on and on and on . . ;)

JB

RE: Still having trouble keeping a slow roll axial.......
 

>>> As I said, it’s a matter of “balance”. Kinda like balancing a broom vertically in the palm of your hand . . >>>

Except that balancing the broom is a lot easier.... LOL

Thanks for the excellent words of wisdom. The 1,2,3,4 thing is for us old musicians I guess. When first starting out I kept wanting to apply up elevator first, rather than opposite rudder.

I won't ask any questions about steering while doing a rolling harrier for now. You might suspect that I really don't have a pattern plane!

Thanks loads,

Ernie

RE: Still having trouble keeping a slow roll axial.......
 

The roll slow or points is a timming manuver, don't start slow, try to go fast first so imputs are much minor, apply rudder when the airplane has passed more than 45degrees in rotation, then down elevator, and of course opposite elevator, it can be done with almost any aircraft, the thing is how much control input, but that depens on speed then CG then airplane design.

Try it with the aircraft on ground, just move the sticks, then try to visualize the aircraft on your mind, once you have this basic timming on the transmitter try it in the air, I think should see a big difference.

Regards

RE: Still having trouble keeping a slow roll axial.......
 

Also, how much stick movement seems to depend on the attitude of the aircraft when entering the roll. For example if going up somewhat, less is needed.

Ernie