RE: Stupid Newbie (to pattern) Question
 

This is not allowed, we have had this discussion with the FAI almost three years ago when electric first became popular.

Also at the Worlds EVERY aircraft is weighed immediately following the flight.

Also if you think the weight limit doesn't affect the size of the model, just imagine what size of bipe you could have with a 15 lb limit and 2x2....then imagine the YS 250DZ that you would need to power it, then imagine the enormous price tag associated with that.

Want to kill pattern? Increase the weight limit. It would bring costs of pattern planes to heights yet unseen.....and it would filter into every class flown around the world. Look at what happened when the unlimited engine and size/weight rules came into force....compare the cost then to now.

Also if you want IMAC, fly IMAC....thats why it is there. You don't change F1 rules to allow NASCAR to participate.

RE: Stupid Newbie (to pattern) Question
 

Oh Chad.........:)

How will prices go up if we were to increase the weight limit? I mean, gas guys could fly pattern. Pretty cheap.. People with Hanger 9 extras, and caps, and edge's could fly pattern. In a lot of ways I believe it could help bring some costs down to a repectable level that would allow the average person that otherwise can't afford a $3500 pattern arf the ability to come fly with us. Therefore instilling the pattern bug into them. I've seen us here in D7 lose the Vegas and the Gardnerville contest. Plus, the Lancaster contest had 11 pilots, and the Yuma contest had 14.. Is this where we are headed? But hey, only a few people in your class is a guaranteed trophy.. Wooo hooooo.. BUT, who'd you beat really? Just my opinion as I hope this isn't what we are headed into.. Is pattern dying? That kind of thing..
I can see how certain things could go up, but that'd be for guys at your level.. [sm=bananahead.gif] Not the average schmo like me.. lol

BTW, when weighing at the worlds after the flight, do the glow guys have to be under 11lbs then? Or do they have to drain their fuel to weigh? I'm asking cuz I don't know the answer, not cuz I'm being a smarty pants .. :) I haven't progressed enough with my setup yet to get to the worlds.. lol;)

Back to work..

C

RE: Stupid Newbie (to pattern) Question
 

Chris

Cheap planes are available today to compete, people are not competing because there is a lack of cheap models that are competitive, its because they don't want to. Trying to cater to a group of people that doesn't exist with rules changes only hurts those who are already participating. If you want to increase participation, you have to babysit someone for years before they will do it on their own....welcome to the 21st century of instant gratification....which pattern is definitely not.

When was the last time a change to the rules in FAI didn't trickle down to every other class? In FAI if you bump the weight to 15 lbs, we will exploit it and we wont care what it costs, that I promise. In a very short period of time every other class will be affected by that with increased costs, look at history and that will tell you what will happen. The removal of engine displacement rule was put in place to allow for less expensive engines....that one worked really well.....increasing the weight limit to allow for cheaper planes will work about as well.

I have had this conversation with people around the world who have been involved in F3A for long periods of time, the general consensus is the same, and that is increasing the weight limit is in general an extremely bad idea unless you limit other things like engine displacement (again)....which is the way the rules used to be.

Glow can remove fuel, its a check to ensure you have not made changes to your model since the registration weigh in which put it over the weight limit. The first time I recall it being done was in France, and I am certain it was to prevent electric fliers from weighing in at registration with one size pack, then moving to a larger one afterwards.

There are some plus's to electric that glow doesn't have.....if you fail the noise test with electric there is no rule stating that you MUST/SHALL re-charge your battery.....it says you MAY....so you can be way over the limit during the first test, and on the retest after your flight when the pack is pretty much dead you will almost certainly pass every time :D

Like I say, you change the rules, and the FAI guys will exploit them in every possible manner. :)

RE: Stupid Newbie (to pattern) Question
 

Chad,
There will be no competition if there aren't some changes made IMO. You kind of said it yourself in the last post.
I can see where what you say has alot of merit and where it would apply if there was a change. I personally don't care if it changes. I can build light enough easily.. But I'd sure hate to see pattern go away. Heck, I'd like to fly Fai, but the competition is small here in D7.. Masters generally has 10 or more pilots show up and it's always a great battle.

With my weigh in Q a few posts back, I guess I was wondering how glow models are weighed at the beginning of a contest vs after a flight. If it's with fuel, how do you know if they are under weight? See, I don't know everything.. lol[:-]

C

RE: Stupid Newbie (to pattern) Question
 

I agree we need to promote pattern and devise ways of growing it, but I don't think a weight limit change will do that. I feel it would only increase the costs needed for those currently competing and I feel that we would lose as many current fliers as we would gain in new ones.

The process at the worlds is as follows,

- All aircraft are processed prior to the competition, this checks weight, size, identification, RF transmittal, as well they sometimes check the receiver to see if you have a gyro plugged in.
- After each flight your plane is quarantined and weighed (and re-noise tested at the first available opportunity if applicable). Glow guys can remove fuel only for the weigh in, but I don't think they are allowed to clean the model, so you can't be too close or the oil might get you :) Electric are not allowed to do anything to their planes and are weighed as flown. If you passed the processing weigh in but fail a flight weigh in, they can assess a penalty to your score, I am not sure how this is calculated.

I have only seen once where someone failed the post flight weigh in, it was a glow flier and was given a 3% penalty I think, this was at the worlds in France. Under the new rules with the allowance, he would have passed that check.....which is why they are there now :)

RE: Stupid Newbie (to pattern) Question
 

What's to stop a glow guy from having his high throttle on a limit switch to help him pass the noise test?

C

RE: Stupid Newbie (to pattern) Question
 

Nothing except its against the rules and if you are caught your out. All it takes is for someone to be slightly suspicious that is what you are doing and your going to get scrutinized and they likely will find out.

RE: Stupid Newbie (to pattern) Question
 

ok i didnt think about the diferent electric classes lol
happy flying

simmo

RE: Stupid Newbie (to pattern) Question
 

Actually, there already is an FAI electric aerobatics class (or at least was)....its F5A, but I don't think its ever had a worlds.

RE: Stupid Newbie (to pattern) Question
 

I have stayed out of this since I don't compete, but this seems silly to me. If you step up to a 2x2 model with a 15lb limit, that is not YS territory, that is gas engine territory. And you can buy one amazing gas engine, with pipe, for about 2/3 (maybe less) what the current YS170's cost. That seems to me the only place where an increase to the weight limit would help, though. It's also getting close to the first gas TOC planes or smaller IMAC models...

Really, it is a competitive endeavour that uses technical equipment for the competition. No matter what you do, some individuals will always stretch the limits of the rules no matter what the cost. That is how it works. This is the same complaint that you hear regarding lots of racing. If you can't afford to run with the big dogs, find sponsorship or stay at a lower level that your pocketbook can afford. It's not fair or just, it just is.

If you want to limit cost, reset the box to 1.7mx1.7m, set a max weight of around 8-8.5lb and limit engines to 0.9cuin regardless of type. Maybe set a maximum battery pack size as well to even off the electric guys if it becomes necessary. Basically, this would step back to the mid 80's in aircraft size. Makes building, storing and transporting easier and cheaper and the smaller engines use less fuel. Radios, servos, etc. will still cost a lot, though.

Mark

RE: Stupid Newbie (to pattern) Question
 

Its not YS territory yet, but it would be shortly....it would also remove electric 100% from the scene as we have a 42V limit.

You would think it would open the door to gas, but since the rules changes to unlimited engine displacement there has been well over 10 years of opportunity for gas to get a foothold....its never happened, and never likely to happen....it just doesn't compete with glow in this event. History shows us this is just not going to happen....higher weight limit will = larger models within the 2x2 framework with larger engines which = higher cost and less participants.

Smaller is the way to go to reduce cost, although that would be a tough sell. Its something you could try and take on as a country by country basis in their own class structure, but its unlikely to ever happen at the FAI level. Unlikely Pylon which generally doesn't follow FAI rules in the national classes (Q500, Q40 rather than F3D), most countries fly FAI pattern as part of their national class structure, therefore the rules that are laid out by the FAI typically have large influence over each countries rules for their own national classes.

In Canada for instance we basically follow FAI rules with a few exceptions.

RE: Stupid Newbie (to pattern) Question
 

The problem with gas power is that it is marginal at the 5kg weight limit. Up that limit by 1kg or so and it becomes very reasonable. Also, it hasn't really happened yet because no manufacturer has really taken a run at a purpose built F3A gas engine (despite what ZDZ call their RE 40). Electric has taken off as the technology has matured but nobody has taken gas there yet. Probably won't either, given the extremely limited market available. I know I wouldn't want to try it myself.

Yes, smaller would be a tough sell at this point, but it may become necessary eventually to keep pattern off life support. I think the 3D ARF, instant gratification theory is part of it, too. It is just WAY cooler to watch someone hovering a 25-35% ARF down low compared to watching someone practicing any of the pattern schedules, even if the pattern flight is far more demanding than flipping a 3D plane around aimlessly. It's just a byproduct of our society and culture at the moment.

Mark

RE: Stupid Newbie (to pattern) Question
 

I am with Chad all the way on keeping the weight limit. Listen to this guy, he is one of the best in the world in the F3A game and very dedicated to it. Pattern is obviously not for everyone, only for very very few. People do not participate in pattern simply because they do not want to! I have been around F3A since 1980 in two continents/three countries so I have seen a bit. F3A is like F1 cars. If you want no weight limit go to IMAC!
Today's society (world-wide) wants instant gratification with ARFs etc. which pattern is not. Personally I would like to reduce aircraft size (like pattern guru Dean Pappas) but it will be hard to go back to the old .61/10cc days now.

RE: Stupid Newbie (to pattern) Question
 

I appreciate all of the experienced insight here. I am learning some of the various issues involved.

After reading all of this, it seems to me that the thing to do, is to weigh all the planes ready to fly. That means with full tanks, or all the electrons in the batteries. They can keep the current weight limit, or if they choose increase it by 8 ounces, or whatever size tank is usually run for a glow sequence. To me, that would seem to put everything on more equal ground.

RE: Stupid Newbie (to pattern) Question
 

Freddy,

You say it would be hard to go back to the .61.10cc airplanes....Why
would it be hard?......., all it would take is for people to agree to quit
spending these ridiculous amounts of money we spend on the 2 meter
airplanes. The SPA and BPA people don't seem to have a problem with it.

tommy s

RE: Stupid Newbie (to pattern) Question
 

Just a note: The 5 kgs. limit is not only for pattern. It is for all RC model airplanes FAI competition. There is on exception to this rule for RC scale.

Regards,

Vicente "Vince" Bortone

RE: Stupid Newbie (to pattern) Question
 

Tommy, you have your answer right there. You would have to get a political organization spanning dozens of countries around the world to agree on a huge, fundamental shift in their rules structure.

Good luck with that.


Mark

P.S. - I agree the smaller models are the way to go, but it has a snowball's chance of ever happening.

RE: Stupid Newbie (to pattern) Question
 

The unfortunate truth is competitive airplane flying is just like golf, racing and
almost every sport you can name, it's controlled by people with unlimited funds
or sponsors and they make the rules, so if you want to compete.....jump in !

I recently competed in a vintage pattern contest with the Fort Worth Thunderbirds
and I couldn't help but think that my Intruder with all the equipment, engine and
everything else cost less than the engine in my 2 meter, and it's just as much fun.

tommy s