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-   -   SAP 180 (Syssa Performance) (https://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/rc-pattern-flying-101/9237216-sap-180-syssa-performance.html)

cmoulder 01-29-2010 08:28 PM

RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)
 
1 Attachment(s)


ORIGINAL: MTK

Actually, using a cord for the choke is possibly a little better than a solid plastic tube, in a soft mounted application. Engine movement will not transfer anything through the cord to the cowl. I am not sure it matters long term but why not? It should avert even a hint of a suspicion that a problem is possible

The intent still is to use the plastic sheath (that encapsulates a section of the cord) to set choke position. I think this will work fine

Matt
Cowl reinstalled. Nice slack.

I may install a choke servo later, but I will try this for a while.

Rendegade 01-29-2010 08:58 PM

RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)
 
Better make sure that ignition lead doesn't touch the header!

Ask me how I know.

cmoulder 01-29-2010 09:34 PM

RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)
 
1 Attachment(s)


ORIGINAL: Rendegade

Better make sure that ignition lead doesn't touch the header!

Ask me how I know.
Thanks, Mate!

Yep, unfortunately I had a close call like that with a DA-50. Lesson learned. I used a reamed-out J-tec ClampLok to hold the ignition wire and pinched it tighter with a piece of CA hinge material. Would take a pretty hard, deliberate yank by hand to move it! The spark plug cap is angled away, but........ even so I will check it every now and then.

MTK 01-30-2010 02:19 AM

RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)
 
1 Attachment(s)
Here is one approach to TX controlled choke

MTK 01-30-2010 02:20 AM

RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)
 
1 Attachment(s)
Continuing

MTK 01-30-2010 02:23 AM

RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)
 
1 Attachment(s)
more detail

MTK 01-30-2010 02:26 AM

RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)
 
1 Attachment(s)
1 more; sorry for the one at a time. They are large files and can only do 1 at a time

MTK 01-30-2010 02:27 AM

RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)
 
1 Attachment(s)
1 more

MTK 01-30-2010 02:31 AM

RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)
 
1 Attachment(s)
Less than 1 oz for two servos (throttle and choke) plus their mounts. Having this small extra weight up front will help balance the plane. The ZDZ is much heavier than the SAP consequently I placed the elevator servos on the stab

MTK 01-30-2010 02:34 AM

RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)
 
1 Attachment(s)
This shot is of the wood prop laminated in carbon. The technique is quite simple really. You simply place the assembly in a vacuum sealer and draw the vacuum

Champ-RCU 01-30-2010 09:51 AM

RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)
 
MTK

I have a couple questions.

1) With the throttle and choke servo so close to the engine and I assume the ignition system, does that cause any interference problems? And if it may cause a problem, what do you do to minimize the negative effects?

2) On the carbon covered prop. Why not extend the carbon to cover the prop hub as well? It seems as though stopping the carbon at the root of the blade would cause a stress riser at that point. Also, do you cover both the front and back of the prop?

Thanks for sharing your efforts. It's appreciated.


Mark

P.S. I bet the food you save after doing that prop really sticks to your ribs:eek:. Sorry the devil made me do it.

P.P.S. What weight cloth do you use to cover the prop?

MTK 01-30-2010 10:25 AM

RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)
 
I have truck that has old magneto ignition which is extremely noisy. The throttle servo is right next to the magneto...the steering servo is only 3 inches fore.

Using 2.4 gig RC link makes the set-up immune. I expect the same in the plane

MattK

MTK 01-30-2010 10:26 AM

RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)
 
On your second question, I don't want to. It works super as is and isn't necessary

MattK

MTK 01-30-2010 10:30 AM

RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)
 
On your third...YA THINK!!!????

3K, bias cut. For details check the article in one of the publications, which ever pays up

cmoulder 01-30-2010 01:53 PM

RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)
 
1 Attachment(s)
FRIGID MAIDEN!

The wind forecast turned out to be better for today and I decided to get the maiden out of the way. My buddy Rob was there to make sure I didn't do anything really stupid or overlook the obvious.

It was COLD. As in about 10-12 degF and a bit of a breeze, about 5-8 mph. I was wearing my arctic gear and was actually comfortable for the most part, but what I was really concerned about were the LiPo Rx/Ign batteries. I got the canopy on as quickly as possible to keep the breeze from carrying away any more energy from the less-cold coccoon of the fuse. Got in 3 flights and the batteries held up fine.

Okay, what you may want to know... The SAP 180 was, in a word, FAN-FREAKIN'-TASTIC! It is going to take some work to get the throttle response a lot more linear, but the power is there and it hauled this 10.5 lb plane around with gobs of gusto. Unlimited vertical, but more importantly it will accelerate smartly after an energy-sapping maneuver. There is a bit of a sharp step in the throttle in the (and I am totally guessing here) 3700-4000rpm range where the power really jumps. I guess that is what is referred to as "peaky"? Break-in, tuning, and throttle curve will be an ongoing process for a while.

I did not touch the needles since the initial 1.5 tank break-in and tuning run, and there was little need to touch them today. Low and high ends were a teensy bit rich, but the idle was reliable (although a lot of shake) and there was ony the occasional minor stumble on throttle up. I set the timer to 7 minutes not because of concerns for the fuel consumption, but worry over the batteries in the frigid cold. After 3 flights they were still in good shape, although one still draws more current than the other. I have not yet checked the adjustable reg settings, and it could be they are not balanced.

The Focus II, like the Focus Sport, was crooked at all get-outs from the factory, but having taken the time to null out all the twists and turns and get the wing/stab/fin square to each other paid off VERY little coupling after just the most rudimentary trimming. At 10.5 lbs, it is very light on the wing.

Also, NO NOSE RING NEEDED with the soft engine mount. YAY!

I made one more modification to the header/pipe coupler. I got some silicone hose from McMaster-Carr and decided to use a section of it OVER the Teflon tape because I thought there was not enough stiffness at that junction. Worked out perfectly, and there was only a minuscule amount of exhaust residue coming from the joint at the end of the session.




MTK 01-30-2010 04:12 PM

RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)
 


ORIGINAL: cmoulder

FRIGID MAIDEN!

The wind forecast turned out to be better for today and I decided to get the maiden out of the way. My buddy Rob was there to make sure I didn't do anything really stupid or overlook the obvious.

It was COLD. As in about 10-12 degF and a bit of a breeze, about 5-8 mph. I was wearing my arctic gear and was actually comfortable for the most part, but what I was really concerned about were the LiPo Rx/Ign batteries. I got the canopy on as quickly as possible to keep the breeze from carrying away any more energy from the less-cold coccoon of the fuse. Got in 3 flights and the batteries held up fine.

Okay, what you may want to know... The SAP 180 was, in a word, FAN-FREAKIN'-TASTIC! It is going to take some work to get the throttle response a lot more linear, but the power is there and it hauled this 10.5 lb plane around with gobs of gusto. Unlimited vertical, but more importantly it will accelerate smartly after an energy-sapping maneuver. There is a bit of a sharp step in the throttle in the (and I am totally guessing here) 3700-4000rpm range where the power really jumps. I guess that is what is referred to as ''peaky''? Break-in, tuning, and throttle curve will be an ongoing process for a while.

I did not touch the needles since the initial 1.5 tank break-in and tuning run, and there was little need to touch them today. Low and high ends were a teensy bit rich, but the idle was reliable (although a lot of shake) and there was ony the occasional minor stumble on throttle up. I set the timer to 7 minutes not because of concerns for the fuel consumption, but worry over the batteries in the frigid cold. After 3 flights they were still in good shape, although one still draws more current than the other. I have not yet checked the adjustable reg settings, and it could be they are not balanced.

The Focus II, like the Focus Sport, was crooked at all get-outs from the factory, but having taken the time to null out all the twists and turns and get the wing/stab/fin square to each other paid off VERY little coupling after just the most rudimentary trimming. At 10.5 lbs, it is very light on the wing.

Also, NO NOSE RING NEEDED with the soft engine mount. YAY!

I made one more modification to the header/pipe coupler. I got some silicone hose from McMaster-Carr and decided to use a section of it OVER the Teflon tape because I thought there was not enough stiffness at that junction. Worked out perfectly, and there was only a minuscule amount of exhaust residue coming from the joint at the end of the session.




Excellent. The "peaky" part will go away fairly quickly with a little more run time.

The teflon/glass tape is designed to be flexible, but if it makes you feel more secure, fine. My tape is crinkled a bit but the material is designed to take it. No problem either way.

Good job Bob

Matt

cmoulder 01-30-2010 06:17 PM

RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)
 

Excellent. The "peaky" part will go away fairly quickly with a little more run time.

The teflon/glass tape is designed to be flexible, but if it makes you feel more secure, fine. My tape is crinkled a bit but the material is designed to take it. No problem either way.

Good job Bob

Matt
Thanks, Matt. Wouldn't have gone nearly as smoothly without help from you and Ed, and tips and suggestions from several other guys. Especially your soft mount construction assist - a key piece, for sure!

Glad to know the engine will settle down after some more running. Even today, for the 3 flights I used only approximately 1.5 tanks total.... not much run time and it has already improved substantially. The first start today was a little difficult and I had to resort to the electric starter, but after that it started on the first flip with no choking or anything.

This engine really sips gasoline. Before the maiden I ran the engine a pretty good while to make sure it was warmed up with reliable idle and throttle-up, and then flew, using about 3/4 tank. The next two 7-minute flights it used significantly less than 1/2 tank with normal throttle management. The 12 oz tank is plenty! I could have flown the Intermediate schedule 3 times.

The forecast for tomorrow is cold like today, but again not bad for wind so I may try to get in a few more flights and put some miles on the engine.

MTK 01-30-2010 06:59 PM

RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)
 


ORIGINAL: cmoulder


Excellent. The ''peaky'' part will go away fairly quickly with a little more run time.

The teflon/glass tape is designed to be flexible, but if it makes you feel more secure, fine. My tape is crinkled a bit but the material is designed to take it. No problem either way.

Good job Bob

Matt
Thanks, Matt. Wouldn't have gone nearly as smoothly without help from you and Ed, and tips and suggestions from several other guys. Especially your soft mount construction assist - a key piece, for sure!

Glad to know the engine will settle down after some more running. Even today, for the 3 flights I used only approximately 1.5 tanks total.... not much run time and it has already improved substantially. The first start today was a little difficult and I had to resort to the electric starter, but after that it started on the first flip with no choking or anything.

This engine really sips gasoline. Before the maiden I ran the engine a pretty good while to make sure it was warmed up with reliable idle and throttle-up, and then flew, using about 3/4 tank. The next two 7-minute flights it used significantly less than 1/2 tank with normal throttle management. The 12 oz tank is plenty! I could have flown the Intermediate schedule 3 times.

The forecast for tomorrow is cold like today, but again not bad for wind so I may try to get in a few more flights and put some miles on the engine.
Hey, we are there to help each other but thanks, my pleasure.

But back to you, a great accomplishment to get this up and flying so fast. Weather is waaaay too cold for me to even entertain running the engine let alone fly it.

But I am getting the set-up completed in the new design so at the earliest weather break, I'll run the engine to see how the rc choke works. I think it will be fine though, and Ed concurs. Working on the plumbing right now.

matt

MTK 01-31-2010 12:33 AM

RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)
 
1 Attachment(s)
In this pic I have the throttle and choke servos mounted and functional. I increased throw slightly to about 120% and lengthened the arm on throttle. Works well on the bench.

I'll get ready to run and see how these tiny servos hold up

Matt

MTK 01-31-2010 12:35 AM

RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)
 
1 Attachment(s)
Choke on and throttle full

PlaneKrazee 01-31-2010 01:19 AM

RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)
 


ORIGINAL: MTK

This shot is of the wood prop laminated in carbon. The technique is quite simple really. You simply place the assembly in a vacuum sealer and draw the vacuum

I see I'm not the only one with a food saver vacuum bagger.:) I never thought to use it on anything but weighted flat laminations. Cool idea with the props. Do you laminate both front and back?

Rendegade 01-31-2010 05:52 AM

RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)
 
Matt, I was running a smaller servo on the MVVS, and I did end up blowing one up, before I figured that the load from the throttle closing spring may have been too great for the pooty little servo..

I remedied the situation by reducing the spring's tension, I don't reccomend removing it completely (mainly to keep the throttle buttefly steady in the carb but also for safety reasons) but a reduction does wonders.

cmoulder 01-31-2010 07:56 AM

RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)
 


ORIGINAL: MTK

In this pic I have the throttle and choke servos mounted and functional. I increased throw slightly to about 120% and lengthened the arm on throttle. Works well on the bench.

I'll get ready to run and see how these tiny servos hold up

Matt
Nice work in tight quarters! I'm very interested in the outcome of this test - for future projects.

These are nylon-geared servos, no? The throttle servo linkage is perpendicular to the soft mount rotation so it should be okay.

It is the choke servo I wonder about. However, in your earlier photos it is clear you removed the extra material from the choke plate, moved the linkage hole closer (reducing the rotation range and the plate mass) and unhooked the spring.

You definitely gave it a fighting chance!:eek:

On the throttle servo, will you stay with the Kwik-connect (set-screw linkage) or is that temporary for setting up and then maybe switch to nylon clevises or ball links?

MTK 01-31-2010 08:35 AM

RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)
 


ORIGINAL: Rendegade

Matt, I was running a smaller servo on the MVVS, and I did end up blowing one up, before I figured that the load from the throttle closing spring may have been too great for the pooty little servo..

I remedied the situation by reducing the spring's tension, I don't reccomend removing it completely (mainly to keep the throttle buttefly steady in the carb but also for safety reasons) but a reduction does wonders.
Todd may be replacing the stock springs of the walbro with something much lighter, not sure. One thing certain, the load is extremely light, so light in fact that the throttle doesn't really close all the way on its own. Full throttle takes maybe 4 ozs of force.

The other thing I've done is extend the arm to approximately double to get it away from the case. It doesn't matter from a mechanical advantage point of view because the net is zero, however, I can use more servo travel to accomplish what I need. The servo likes it better that way and I get greater resolution in mid range

MattK

Rendegade 01-31-2010 08:45 AM

RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)
 
Good work all round I think!

Well from those of us sweating it out on a 90° evening here, good night!


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