RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)
 

You guys are getting silly. :) Todd and I talked about a more practical approach to tuning this engine specifically for Pattern work (larger props at a slower RPM) and it wouldn't increase the weight nearly as much as one of those kludgey belt drives. Adding weight is NEVER a good thing. You would also see more mid-range torque / response. The only problem as far as he was concerned is if enough people would buy them to justify the development and production cost of a "Pattern" version.

Just keep the airplane light and prop it correctly. The engine (in it's current state) will do the job as long as you don't make it bog down. It's a revver not a stump puller.

John Pavlick
Team Black Magic

RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)
 

John, you mean by making a long-stroke version?

That would be great but it's easy to see the Catch-22 ~ guys want to see one fly AND WIN first.

If Dave L or Don S won a couple of contests with a protptype, it would be all the rage. But they seem pretty happy with electric and YS.

RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)
 

The engine is a very impressive engine for the lower classes. You are never going to produce the torque of the YS, and even more so the electrics, regardless of what you do. This is a great engine for sportsman though advanced, and with the right pilot on the right airframe even masters. As long as you understand the limitations of the motor, it is a great setup. It is not going to pull around an 11lb wide body design though. It will be neat to see on Matt's new plane, but it is no where near 11lbs.

Arch

RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)
 

Yeah I agree (Arch and Bob). It's not a YS or an electric. It's a big over-square 2-stroke. Everything is a tradeoff. As long as you know what you're deailing with life is good. The one thing that REALLY makes this engine shine is the fact that it runs on relatively inexpensive (compared to glow fuel) gasoline. Once you pay for the engine and airplane you can fly your b#lls off without spending a lot of money on fuel or waiting for batteries to charge. I think we might see more people getting into Pattern once they realise how well this engine works. THAT is a good thing!

John Pavlick
Team Black Magic

RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)
 

I totally agree, thats why I think its perfect for the lower class guys. Usually by the time someone gets to Advanced and needs something more, they are probably hooked enough to go elsewhere. This motor is great for the lower classes, because you can put it in a 78" scale aerobatics plane and go fly and have a nice flying plane to enter pattern with, and then if you decide you like it, you get another motor and drop it in a Focus or something and now you have both a sport plane and pattern plane using the same fuel source. I will be the first to admit, I was very curious/skeptical, but after seeing both Bob and Matt's setups, I wouldn't hesitate to recommend this setup to anyone wanting to try pattern.

Arch

RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)
 

Hi guys:

In the interests of reporting the good and the not-so-good developments, this morning the front bearing of my SAP-180 gave out, but fortunately the engine kept running and I got the Focus 2 down safely.

I noticed it first as a significant drop in rpm's and even thought initially that it might be a loose spark plug cap. The engine started again, but then I saw significant lateral and vertical movement of the spinner tip, which it did not display before. Uh-oh... either a broken stand-off bolt or nose ring or - please say 'no'!! - the front bearing. Unfortunately it was the front bearing.

The engine has about 200 flights on it, so including ground running time and testing, etc, the engine has roughly 3700 minutes of run time, or 62 hours.

Installing SAP-180 #2 this afternoon.

RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)
 

I had the same problem with my number 2 engine after about 2000 minutes or 35 hours of running. I find it interesting that the front bearings are failing rather than the main or rear bearings. Rear bearing woes in glow engines are well documented. The failure mode does not seem to be rust or broken cages or anything like that. It seems there is wear between the the balls and races. It maybe lack of lubrication in this area that's doing us in. I don't remember if there is a groove in the case cut to lubricate the front bearing. I think I am going to soak the front end in Mobil 1 in my No 1 engine on my plane currently

RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)
 

While on the subject of bearings, I'd also carefully inspect the con-rod bearings for excessive wear, adn distortion of the bearing cage. This was a big problem in the early MVVS motors, and I've changed more than my fair share of INA HK-0808's!

RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)
 

You guys fly more in a month than the rest of us do in a year! Any idea of how much fuel was used for 2000 minutes? Is there any chance that the soft mounts are putting additional stress on the front bearings? I know it sounds improbable, but just a thought...

RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)
 

About 6 gallons gasoline. Let's see, about 13 flights per gallon x about 22 minutes per flight average. Well, a little under 2000 minutes I suppose when you actually do the rithmetic. About 30 hours running time. My set-up spools up to just over 8K rpm at full throttle...my fuel econmy is terrific. Lately, I've seen a drop in fuel economy as I have let the engine spool up another 500 rpm or so.

I doubt there is any chance that soft mounts are doing anything besides that for which they were designed. The same design has worked flawlessly for 8 years in other stuff I've built with well over 1500 flights on Temptress alone. These were Glow engine applications which was the only difference. Gasoline versus glow 2 stroke or 4 stroke, makes no difference. If anything, Todd's nifty engine shows much lower vibration than most 2 stroke glow engines I've got experience with.

RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)
 

Without a doubt the most time I have ever had on a single engine, by a long shot!

Overall I would have to say the soft mount has contributed greatly to the very low number of maintenance issues for the airplane as a whole. The airframe has had no vibration-related failures and the servos are still in good shape. The header and pipe are doing well and the pipe coupler has lasted much longer than I had expected.

SAP #2 is installed and I will be able to start breaking it in and doing some flying Sunday afternoon. Family obligations tomorrow.

RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)
 

With the new thrust plate with the treaded holes, it should be nbd to remove it then swap out the bearing.

RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)
 

Both engines I have are the original design, so perhaps Todd can upgrade after he has checked it out.

It would be nice to be able to replace the bearings ourselves. A good opportunity to expand the product line, with bearings and the correct tools for the job.

As a side note, the engine with all the run time still has excellent compression.

RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)
 

Have you been running pump gas with the 10% alcohol? It would be interesting to see how the carb diaphragms look. I don't have that much run time on any 2 cycle engines, including chain saws, weed eaters and leaf blowers.

RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)
 

Yes, 10% alcohol (which is the only thing easily available... at auto gas pumps) for the entire time.

No problems thus far with any carbs on any of the several gassers I have run. Seems that Walbro has been taking this into account with their selection of rubber (or elastic) materials for some time.

How it might affect bearings (as well as the effect of oil ratios), I don't know.

RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)
 

I have an event on Aug 23 at New Hampshire Motor Speedway and I will buy some NASCAR 100 octane unleaded (100% gasoline) , throw some Royal Purple in it and do a before and after.

RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)
 

Do you know if they also will have 90 octane 100% gasoline? If they do, please get a gallon of that too and do the b4 and after.

90 octane probably doesn't have a whole lot of value in a race application, on second thought

RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)
 

Could you please post some more photos of the pipe set-ups? Thanks Capt,n

RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)
 

Ran Syssa #2 for the first time today and after one tank for initial running and tweaking I got in 3 easy flights with just a few full-throttle verticals.

Had a little trouble on the first start, but it was totally my fault for not getting the initial throttle linkage adjusted. Running a little rich at this point and I managed to deadstick it on the last flight after running out of fuel.

After the initial tweaking run, subsequent starts were all one-flip affairs. Needles are at 2-1/8 H and about 1-5/8 L.

RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)
 

That's great Bob.

Any news on the first from Todd? PM me if yes.

I have not done anything in over 3 weeks now. Temptress still down for a bad aileron servo. It's more than that tho. I need to take a close look everywhere. It's been quite awhile for a thorough check-up

RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)
 

All of those should be posted early in the thread. I also have a bunch of photos posted on the EF Extra thread in this forum, showing the pipe set-up.

The full set-up with everything you need to get you going is on post #1071 I think. Pipe setting is the same whether you use a sport prop like the 18x6 or a pattern prop like the ones we discuss here-in

RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)
 

Matt, I'm putting SAP #1 into the mail tomorrow, but gave Todd the heads-up and he is looking for it.

Not a bad idea about giving the model a thorough going-over. I did a pretty good inspection while doing the engine swap-out and everything seems to be holding together well on the Focus 2.

RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)
 

Do indeed check out [link=http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=9794144]Post #1071[/link] which has links to all the tested and proven elements for a successful pipe set-up.

RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)
 

Well, I have the break-in run and 11 flights on SAP #2 and it is already settling into a very nice groove.

Leaned out the H needle a smidge at the Paradise pattern meet and it is running even better. It is nice to see that the cookbook forumla works easily for a new SAP and that the effort to find the right combination was fruitful. I am staying with the trusty APC 15.5x12W for break-in as well as normal usage because the pitch is okay either way - not loading the engine up at all. No RPM readings yet, but will get some next time at the field.

Again using Pennzoil 2C air-cooled 32:1 and am going to stay with that for a long time, maybe not switch to synthetic at all.

RE: SAP 180 (Syssa Performance)
 

Bob,

Is Pennzoil 2C found at local hardware or motocycle shops?

I've been happy with the BelRay MC1 at 50:1 but wonder if there is a better combination for pattern applications. Maybe we need to run a little more oil for pattern. One thing certain, pattern places demands on engines that sport flying simply does not do.

I flew Saturday and noticed a little bit of smoke out of the exhaust at full revs. I am running mine too rich most likely. I'm running the H needle just about 2 turns open and it seems it's a bit too open.

Todd is building consistent copies of the engine it looks like. That's good quality control.