Getting into Pattern with Fliton Element 170
 

Greetings All,

I have decided to take a break from IMAC and want to get started into pattern. I haven't flown pattern since I had a Curare in 1987. Things have changed and I given an Element 170 that hasn't been flown. What setup should I use? Glow/Electric and what size engine for both. Any help would be nice. I plan on flying in Intermediate. Thanks for the help

Chris

RE: Getting into Pattern with Fliton Element 170
 

Chris,

Welcome back to the pattern ranks. Yes, things have changed a lot since 1987 but the old requirements of 'straight', 'round' and 'centered' are still the same.

The Element 170 is a nice flying plane and will work well in Intermediate. Either glo or electric will work equally well. If you need to purchase new glo or electric setups to fly, then I will say the electric setup will probably cost more initially but pay for itself over time compared to the long term cost of glo solutions. But then again, I am prejudiced ;-)

Glo fuel prices have gone up and show no tendency to come down in the near future. Depending on the engine choice (glo) you could be spending upwards of $25 gallon if you need to high nitro blends for some of the 4 strokes. If you go with a large 2 stroke, you will not need as much nitro content.

Lipo battery packs for the electric setups have improved dramatically in the past 4 years in ability to deliver consistent current as well as battery life. I would expect that improvement to continue going forward but you will eventually 'wear out' a battery over time and will need to replace it.

With glo, you buy your fuel a gallon at a time, with electric, you buy your fuel a pack at a time and the up front cost is greater. Cost over time is dependant on how many flights you get from a battery pack.

So, it kinda depends on what you would 'prefer' to do.... here are some choices, there are many, but I am listing the more obvious ones. All of these choices have been successful proven power plants.

Glo engines:
YS140DZ
YS160DZ
YS170DZ
OS 160 2 stroke
OS 140 2 Stroke rear exhaust with pump

Electric Motors:
AXI 5330 F3A
Plettenberg
Himax F3A
Hacker inrunner
Hacker outrunner
Neu inrunners

Electric controllers (ESCs):
Castle Creations
Jeti
Hacker (made by Jeti)
Schultze (sp?)
YGE


If you decide to go electric, there are cheap Chinese motors and ESCs available, but I would recommend you stick with proven systems to start with to minimize learning curves and failures.

We would be happy to answer any questions you have about these solutions, just ask away.

Once again, welcome back.

Woodie
Team Acme

RE: Getting into Pattern with Fliton Element 170
 

You may want to check into the feasibility of using electric in an Element 170.

A YS 170 would work great.

RE: Getting into Pattern with Fliton Element 170
 

Electric works fine in the Element. There are a couple Elements flying up here with e-setuos. Plettenberg motors I think. With the light weight Plettenberg, the batteries are well forward in the belly pan but it is not a problem at all.

There are also a couple Elements flying with glo motors. YS DZs and OS 140s.

Woodie
Team Acme LG

RE: Getting into Pattern with Fliton Element 170
 

Don't forget you'll need at least 2 preferably 3 flight packs and 2 very solid chargers.

Also unless you have access to mains at the field you'll need at least a 1KVA generator as your car battery won't take the abuse of charging 10S 5AH packs. Even a good deep cycle battery is a waste of space for field charging a days flying.

That being said, if you set yourself up properly for electric you won't go back to glow, however I love my YS DZ170cdi and the slight smoke trail challenges me to be a better pilot on the sticks :D

I also hope that one day when pattern is all electric we'll be charging our batteries with a YS generator [X(]

RE: Getting into Pattern with Fliton Element 170
 

Now there is a good idea. I could trade in my $700 Honda generator and get a $1200 YS generator.... just kidding guys, put the noose away!!! ;-)

Woodie
Team Acme

RE: Getting into Pattern with Fliton Element 170
 

Yeah, 'lectrics go better when their charged with electrons made by Honda, but a nitro burning YS generator would be the ultimate pose. Only need a 1.60 or 1.70 driving a car alternator.....

RE: Getting into Pattern with Fliton Element 170
 

Well, if we use the DZ to drive a Honda car alternator, it would be close to the same thing and we could get our nitro fix at the same time... ;-)

Woodie
Team Acme LG

RE: Getting into Pattern with Fliton Element 170
 

I think you'll enjoy the change from IMAC - some refreshing differences, both positive and negative. For me, I weary of all the snaps!

I assembled an Element for a friend last winter. It turned out to be a wonderfully flying airplane. There may be better planes, but not for the price.
We put an OS 160 2-stroke in it with a perry pump, and Karl Mueller header. It would have been overweight and tail heavy, but we substituted an ES carbon pipe, and things worked out well. With this setup he has great vertical, even at our 5400ft altitude.
I'm thinking an electric version would be overweight, but you may not care about that.

Enjoy,
Dan

RE: Getting into Pattern with Fliton Element 170
 

Yeah, I think the Element would be pushing the weight limit of 5K with 5000mah packs but for Intermediate, 5000mah packs wouldn't be required. 4200mah should work just fine and that shaves about 6-8 oz off the total depending on the selected batteries.

For an initial plane, I wouldn't worry about being over the 5K limit a little. No one measures or weighs the planes at local contests anyway. You would give up a little performance at the higher weight but glo planes take off at well over the 5K limit with a full tank on board anyway.

Glo or electric, they will both work well. Just go with proven setups and you will really enjoy the plane.

Woodie
Team Acme LG

RE: Getting into Pattern with Fliton Element 170
 

Woodie aka the Coyote - my partner in crime & fellow Team ACME member - is correct. Don't worry about the 5 k limit for now. As a matter of fact, I have a Fliton Element 170 Bipe that's probably pushing 6.5 k take off weight, but I can still go through the F sequence with a YS 170 on 20% nitro, only using 1/2 to 3/4 throttle on long vertical up lines.

Just concentrate on setting up the plane correctly. As for glow or electric, talk to a few more pilots before making up your mind, both have advantages & disadvantages. But the most important thing is, ENJOY!

Adrian aka the Road Runner
Team ACME LLC

RE: Getting into Pattern with Fliton Element 170
 

Myself, I returned to Pattern after about 20 years hiatus!!!!!! A friend recommended the Element 170. Installed a YS 170 DZ CDI with a 19x11 APC prop. Could not get a sweeter engine. Idles at about 1300-1500 and has unlimited vertical. Mine is just at 11 lbs 2 oz. Fuel consumption (Cool Power Heli 30%) is about 11 oz for 11' flight time.

Things that I did not like, the covering started to peel off after about 6 flights, and the landing gear leg split open after 10-15 flights on a pretty smooth runway. So I replaced with the GraphTech F3A. If you order ask them to cut it in two separated legs.

The a/c flights really well and maneuvers are easy, I'm flying Intermediate and plan to use it next year for Advance.

Good luck with it!!!

Rene

RE: Getting into Pattern with Fliton Element 170
 

Chris,

I'm the guy that "underdw" built the Element for and I highly recommend the "el-cheapo" approach with the OS 160 2-stroke. I too was returning to pattern after a significant lay-off. I've been flying the 170 for about a year in Advanced and it is a very capable aircraft and a lot of bang for your buck. I considered building it electric as I too thought I'd only fly at local contests where they would not check weight. However, I wanted to make the 5 kg weight limit out of the gate and now, "underdw" and I are thinking about going to the NATs in 2011, who knew?

I'm a little old school and was predisposed to go glow and in this case, I'm glad I did. At the end of the day, you want this plane to be as light as possible and I think glow is the way to do that. Also, you never have to wait for little batteries to charge if you want to go fly (I still love that). If you use the OS 160, you can go with 15% Cool Power and have all the vertical performance you'll ever need. I have unlimited vertical and I live in Denver where glow engines are derated for elevation (5400 ft as "underdw" mentioned).

There are a few issues to overcome and I can clue you in on that. Most of it is discussed in the RCU build thread. For instance, throw away your stock gear and buy the Graph-Tech F3A Pattern. There's also issues with tank location, etc.

You will find the build-thread at the following link. It goes over all the issues with electric/glow, weight, etc.

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_7967001/tm.htm

Good luck and don't hesitate to contact me if you need some help.

Best, Zoli

RE: Getting into Pattern with Fliton Element 170
 

Consider using the SAP180HP gasoline engine. I have a thread on the care and feeding of this engine here in the Pattern Forum. The set up that works great is on post 1071 on that thread. Copy that and you will have one of the best set-ups around. Your maintenance and operational cost will be absolute minimum and you will be working with gasoline, a fuel you are most familiar with.