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Futaba 12 FG Dummies Guide

Old 12-07-2010, 10:03 AM
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Skaluf
 
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Default RE: Futaba 12 FG Dummies Guide

Roger,

The content for 103 is already set. Programmable and pre-programmed mixing will come a bit later in the series. As they say, you have to walk before you can run. I've designed this series to build on steps learned previously.

Thanks for your suggestions, I will add them to my "to do" list.

Steve


ORIGINAL: RogerParrett

Steve,

Great video... A suggestion for Programming 103.... In addition to covering ''Conditions'', could you please consider covering how one programs ''Flaperons''? Since many people getting the 12FG/Z series radios are coming from radios that supported flaperons at the menu level, I've found that telling someone to:

1) Set the Camber Mix to ACT (huh?)
2) Go to the Camber/Ail screen and set both the 50% (double huh?)
3) Go to the FUNCTION screen and set Camber to a switch - or slider - depending on the operation...
4) Set the Speed In/Out to 23 (speed? what the hey?)

in the 12FG can be rather confusing.

Then, maybe in Programming 104, you can go over what ''Virtual Channels'' are, and why you'd want to use them....

And finally, you can show them how to create pre-programmed manuvers with the timed offset capabilties. Flip a switch and the plane's ailerons, elevator, and rudder all move in a sync'd manner to execute a nice 3 second roll ... too cool! (BTW, for the 12FG, you'd need at least rev 1.6).
Old 12-07-2010, 11:30 AM
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RogerParrett
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Default RE: Futaba 12 FG Dummies Guide

Steve,

Programming 103 already being "cooked"? Great!

It would be nice if you guys created a flow chart / block diagram of how the system operates when you do the section on programming mixes. A downloadable PDF would be a nice addition to the series. Once I understood that, the radio was MUCH easier to program.

I used mixes on my Super Seven and 9CAPS, but looking at the 12FG, things are ALOT more advanced. The 12/14 series radios have mixes that are extended in several ways:

1) Any channel can be an input (as usual), but you can also specify a hardware control or Virtual channel as the input.

2) Any channel can be an output (as usual), but an output doesn't have to be tied to a physical output servo (use a Virtual Channel).

3) A mix can be activated by a switch setting (pick one, any one), a stick setting (pick one, anyone), or a combination of both. For instance, automatically going to low rates at higher throttle settings, or *****g out rudder throws at low throttle.

Oh, need to use that momentary switch to activiate a mix, but then say, "Nope, when I release the switch the mix will turn off"? No problem - use the "Alt" feature in the switch selection setup screen. Toggle once, mix ON. Toggle again, mix OFF.

4) Instead of merely expressing a percent mix, you can also specify a several types of curves.

Need to experiment with mix values during flight? Before, you used to have to land, adjust the percent, and fly again. Now, just assign a TRIM control to the mix. Make mix adjustments in-flight...

5) More than one mix can affect a mix down the chain (linking).

6) You can specify different mix percents depending on if you are above or below the neutral point (Rate A and Rate B, but NOT to be confused with dual rates...).

7) You can specify the response rate of a slaved output - coming or going (SPEED IN/OUT). For instance, flipping a switch and SLOWLY dropping the flaps.

8) Mixes can be chained together - and timed as well - for instance, flipping a switch and "automagically" sequencing the raising of the landing gear, and then closing the doors (OFFSET vs MIXING, not to be confused with the offset variable within the mix...lol). BTW, you can have A LOT of fun with this feature!

9) Finally, mixes can be tied to a Condition. The same mix (say, Elev -> Rudder) can have different settings for different conditions. Conditions are simply "modes" that mixes can look at to affect whether they are on or off. Conditions can also be triggered based on switch and/or stick positons, and can also be "ganged" together (LOGIC). For instance, having a condition called "Take Off or Landing" (TO/Land) that - when active - disables your ability to raise the landing gear. BTW, you can have up to 8 conditions (9 on the MZ). It is up to the individual mixes to determine (SINGLE vs GROUP) if they are affected by a particular condition. However, since the 12FG has 10 user mixes (not counting the built-in ones...), and 8 conditions, in theory you could have up to 80 different user mixes (try remembering THOSE setups...lol). Oh, and if switching from one condition to another causes drastic changes in the control surfaces - say for instance they had different camber trim settings - you can specify the conditions transition slowly (by a user variable amount, of course...).

Sorry for the ramble... oh yeah... do a flow chart... lol... Roger Parrett
Old 12-07-2010, 01:21 PM
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Default RE: Futaba 12 FG Dummies Guide

And what about us dummies who draw a blank at the flying field (or somewhere else) when the PC computer is not available?
Old 12-07-2010, 06:01 PM
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Default RE: Futaba 12 FG Dummies Guide


ORIGINAL: Skaluf

Our next Futaba Video Classroom, Programming 102 posted yesterday. I hope you enjoy it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMF-sQ20_bw

Steve
Yes it helped me a little more with 102.
I hope we don't have to wait for Programming 103 as long as we waited for 102.
Keep them coming.
Old 12-08-2010, 12:52 AM
  #30  
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Default RE: Futaba 12 FG Dummies Guide


ORIGINAL: woodbender

Heard back from Annmarie this evening. Cross your fingers (no pun intended) and stay tuned. I'm busy twisting her arm.. er.. I mean 'encouraging' her to consider writing another book.
Put me on the list for a copy!!

=Adrian=
Old 12-08-2010, 07:02 AM
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woodbender
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Default RE: Futaba 12 FG Dummies Guide

The content for 103 is already set.
Steve, if you have the content all scripted, would you be willing to make the script/outline/notes available as a PDF download?

That would REALLY be a step in the right direction.

We could use the script as class notes, be able to perhaps even duplicate (i.e. remember) what we've seen and not have to sit at the computer endlessly starting and stopping the video. Moreover, as Jbdis says above, we can keep the notes handy when we're at the flying field; the place where we REALLY need them.
Old 12-08-2010, 07:31 AM
  #32  
Skaluf
 
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Default RE: Futaba 12 FG Dummies Guide

Hi folks,

I just want you to know that your posts and suggestions are being read/considered. No decisions have been made of course, but we are listening.

Steve Kaluf
Hobbico
Old 12-08-2010, 07:42 AM
  #33  
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Default RE: Futaba 12 FG Dummies Guide

Steve,

Thanks.... I think that we are all hoping that you will go to the next level with a cmprehensive users manual.
Old 12-08-2010, 07:43 AM
  #34  
profmb
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Default RE: Futaba 12 FG Dummies Guide

Thanks Steve,
I think that the thread clearly highlights the dissparity of skills between different users. Cleary some like Roger really do know there way around the screens and understand what has to be configured first before you configure another function.

In software design we talk of 'Use Case Scenarios' and these describe the key functions and the 'pathways' by which the user interacts with the application. Familiarity with the logic of the application is key to understanding why you need to do something first before something else. I feel that it is this that prevents me from understanding how to get the best out of the system - more than the simplest functions. It is as though a tree structure is required that illustrates the relationships between different functions and the associated screens - this structure being the 'pathway' whihc one works though to achieve the required configutations. In my world a UCS would be some of the functions that Roger highlights in his response - but it could be one that is simpler like setting up butterfly braking, or how to use Conditions and then configure functions within these - all Use Case examples. I do not know if this helps or confuses!

Thanks for reading this thread...
Old 12-08-2010, 08:45 AM
  #35  
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Default RE: Futaba 12 FG Dummies Guide

Love my 8FG, but I too have been extremely frustrated trying to program it for use with a DLG glider. Set up as a model type "GLIDER" with 2-aileron wing and normal tail, I needed "flaperons" operated via the throttle (left) stick, full up stick being zero flaperons and full down stick being fully deployed (down) flaperons. Finally, by trial/error and exhaustive research I discovered that "BUTTERFLY" assigned to J3 can do this. But what pain in getting there! I also needed a momentary switched launch preset which includes a little up elevator and a little camber (down flaperons). Finally go this working via "TRIM MIX", but again with much time and pain. Next was using a 3-pos switch to handle camber settings for speed, cruise, and thermal situations. Finally got that one working via "CAMBER MIX" (I think, I'm not even sure). I'm starting to sort of understand a tiny bit about the programming features, but progress is so slow, and so non-intuitive and frustrating! I know the system has vast capabilities that I would love to know how to use, but probably never will. As said before, the owners manual briefly documents the features but does a terrible job of explaining them in a meaningful way that most rc pilots can get their heads around, and is severely lacking in detail. We definitely need a BOOK that covers 8FG, 12FG, 12Z, and 14MZ programming in depth, with many EXAMPLE SETUPS and step-by-step TUTORIALS. Something that would help us understand the full potential of this system, and how to unlock those hidden treasures. I would certainly buy that book! The tutorial videos are nice, at least something. But who has time to watch, re-watch, take notes, and go <RW FF> through them searching for specific sections of video? We need a written reference with a good index. Most of all we need real life examples of working setups on various types of aircraft, with step-by-step instructions. Giving us something this complex and powerful without any good way of schooling us on that knowledge is a big mistake. This situation can definitely be fixed though. And when it is I believe Futaba could dominate the market with their superior products.
Old 12-08-2010, 08:56 AM
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Default RE: Futaba 12 FG Dummies Guide

ORIGINAL: mdmaurer
We definitely need a BOOK that covers 8FG, 12FG, 12Z, and 14MZ programming in depth, with many EXAMPLE SETUPS and step-by-step TUTORIALS.
WOW, that would be something. Let's see:

DLG 4-servo
DLG 6-Servo
RES
Full house TD+F3J+F3B
Slope racing
Scale gliders (up to 9 functions and possibly 20 servos)
Electric gliders in all the above configurations (4 function, full house, scale, etc.)
Electric Pattern plane
Nitro pattern plane
50cc gasser - 5 servos
50cc gasser - 9+ servos
100-170 cc gasser - up to 14 servos
Pylon racers (from F5D to giant scale gassers)
Biplanes 1 servo per wing
Biplanes 1 servo per surface
Turbine jets in multiple configurations
EDF planes from simple to complex
Complex scale planes with retracts, retract doors fowler flaps, etc.

Those are just off the top of my head and are aircraft types I have seen people asking for detailed set up examples for. It would take a large team of experienced people some time to come up with it. Might be a big seller however! But it would be no easy task.


Old 12-08-2010, 09:13 AM
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Default RE: Futaba 12 FG Dummies Guide

No easy task, true. But neither is trying to program this Tx without any decent guide! I don't think we would need all those examples. Just a select few that would cover the general spectrum, and teach us the programming concepts that could be applied to our specific aircraft.
Old 12-08-2010, 09:28 AM
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Default RE: Futaba 12 FG Dummies Guide

"Silent

Might be a big seller however! But it would be no easy task."

The problem is, the economic engine behind such an endeavor is not viable. It would take an extraordinary amount of effort to complete. Costs would be extremely high to complete such a "all encompassing" how to, with pictures, text, illustrations. An adequate consumer base does exist to support such an effort. If it would, or could, such a document would be available. And, when complete it would be rendered obsolete due to the release of new and better products. So, long term economic benefit would not assist in covering costs.

Also, finding the "niche" of expertise, orcastrating and overseeing such a project would be a frustrating ordeal.

That being said, these Futaba products are the best in the industry. Highly flexible, excellent electronics, nothing can compete.


Just my dime.

DR

Old 12-08-2010, 09:35 AM
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Default RE: Futaba 12 FG Dummies Guide


ORIGINAL: Skaluf

Our next Futaba Video Classroom, Programming 102 posted yesterday. I hope you enjoy it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMF-sQ20_bw

Steve
Steve, great job with the vids, excellent presentation!

Doug.
Old 12-08-2010, 09:48 AM
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Default RE: Futaba 12 FG Dummies Guide

So they give us a great product with tons of great features, but no education on how to use them. Where's the logic in that? How about just a FEW basic examples? Please just give us something so we don't have to search the web for 3 hours to figure out each setting. Can't Hobbico understand how frustrating this is? I love the quality and capability of this system, but at the moment could not recommend it to a fellow flier.
Old 12-08-2010, 10:55 AM
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Default RE: Futaba 12 FG Dummies Guide


ORIGINAL: FLPilot

''Silent

Might be a big seller however! But it would be no easy task.''

The problem is, the economic engine behind such an endeavor is not viable. It would take an extraordinary amount of effort to complete. Costs would be extremely high to complete such a ''all encompassing'' how to, with pictures, text, illustrations. An adequate consumer base does exist to support such an effort. If it would, or could, such a document would be available. And, when complete it would be rendered obsolete due to the release of new and better products. So, long term economic benefit would not assist in covering costs.

Also, finding the ''niche'' of expertise, orcastrating and overseeing such a project would be a frustrating ordeal.

That being said, these Futaba products are the best in the industry. Highly flexible, excellent electronics, nothing can compete.


Just my dime.

DR

I agree with you entirely. It's a great idea but one that has little possibility of actually happening
Old 12-08-2010, 10:59 AM
  #42  
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Default RE: Futaba 12 FG Dummies Guide

I would think the video series would accomplish what you are seeking.

They have been excellent to date and very beneficial.

The hard copy manual that delivers with the 12z goes bar beyond anything I have seen with other products.

Being a long time JR guy, the 12z manual is 100x better than the material delivered with the JR 11x.

And there are tons and tons of 12FG, 12Z and 14MZ info on the net. Some things take a bit of time and effort to yield the expected results.

These are the finest, most flexible, dependable products available. And getting the basics accomplished is not difficult.

Just my dime.

DR
Old 12-08-2010, 11:01 AM
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RogerParrett
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Default RE: Futaba 12 FG Dummies Guide

Fellow Flyers,

This conversation reminds me of the programmable calculators of the mid 70's - HP-65, HP-67, SR-52, TI-58 and TI-59s, etc.

While extremely powerful at the time (a PC? What's that???), they were difficult to learn to program and while there were gurus (or 17 y/o "dateless wonders"...lol) at the time, many people simply wanted solutions. They were just as happy to get a solution on a magnetic card, scan it in, and do their work.

Do we maybe have a similar opportunity here?

Maybe instead of asking someone to write a 400+ page book chock full of narratives and screen shots, how about if someone developed a SD card (thinking 12FG here) with one hundred or so "sample" configurations of air/gliders/helis covering nearly everything from a 2 channel RE glider to a 20 channel scale ship. You'd get a PDF of all configurations (typical servo assignments, etc) in a catalog format, indexed by model type and number of control surfaces.

And maybe several other sample configs showing how mixes, conditions, and/or the more esoteric functions like Logic, timed functions and stop watches operate.

Then, you'd simply pop in the DS card, copy the model that most closely resembled your situation, adjusted the limits and servo reversing (THAT would be documented...lol) and then possibly review the screen parameters / servo monitor to see "what's what, when".

Thoughts?

r/s... Roger Parrett / Dayton / OH
Old 12-08-2010, 11:18 AM
  #44  
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Default RE: Futaba 12 FG Dummies Guide

Roger,

The Futaba Flyers Club has many aircraft templates all ready available. This forum requires you to be the owner of the radio and have registered for the club. If anyone has already done that, the setups may be found at: http://www.14mz.com/forum/downloads.php

Steve
Old 12-08-2010, 11:32 AM
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Default RE: Futaba 12 FG Dummies Guide


ORIGINAL: Skaluf

Roger,

The Futaba Flyers Club has many aircraft templates all ready available. This forum requires you to be the owner of the radio and have registered for the club. If anyone has already done that, the setups may be found at: http://www.14mz.com/forum/downloads.php

Steve

Steve,

Cool! Thanks for the reminder. I'll put it in the mail tomorrow. I've only had the paperwork for about 18 months...

BTW, I saw your preso regarding the S-BUS at Toledo... great job!

r/s... Roger Parrett / Dayton / OH
Old 12-08-2010, 12:31 PM
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Default RE: Futaba 12 FG Dummies Guide

How do you "register"? Does it have to be done by mail or can you do it online?
Old 12-08-2010, 12:38 PM
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Default RE: Futaba 12 FG Dummies Guide

How do you "register"? Does it have to be done by mail or can you do it online?
Old 12-08-2010, 01:34 PM
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RogerParrett
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Default RE: Futaba 12 FG Dummies Guide

My 12FG came with a form to fill out and mail in. I *think* I remember Bax in the Fut Forum saying that you could do it with a serial number being emailed to Support. But don't quote me on that...

r/s... Roger Parrett / Dayton / OH
Old 12-08-2010, 07:44 PM
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Default RE: Futaba 12 FG Dummies Guide


ORIGINAL: RogerParrett


Maybe instead of asking someone to write a 400+ page book chock full of narratives and screen shots, how about if someone developed a SD card (thinking 12FG here) with one hundred or so ''sample'' configurations of air/gliders/helis covering nearly everything from a 2 channel RE glider to a 20 channel scale ship. You'd get a PDF of all configurations (typical servo assignments, etc) in a catalog format, indexed by model type and number of control surfaces.

And maybe several other sample configs showing how mixes, conditions, and/or the more esoteric functions like Logic, timed functions and stop watches operate.

Then, you'd simply pop in the DS card, copy the model that most closely resembled your situation, adjusted the limits and servo reversing (THAT would be documented...lol) and then possibly review the screen parameters / servo monitor to see ''what's what, when''.

Now that is a brilliant Idea.
Old 12-08-2010, 08:45 PM
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Default RE: Futaba 12 FG Dummies Guide

The problem is, the economic engine behind such an endeavor is not viable.
I just want you to know that your posts and suggestions are being read/considered....we are listening.

Hmmmmmm............

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