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View Poll Results: A poll
Have you experienced a lockout due to JR's 2.4
4.43%
Have you experienced a lockout due to Futaba 2.4
3.80%
Have you experienced a lockout due to Spectrum 2.4
22.78%
Have you experienced a lockout due to Hitech 2.4
0.63%
Have you crashed due to JR 2.4 lockout?
8.23%
Have you crashed due to Futaba 2.4 lockout?
3.80%
Have you crashed due to Spectrum 2.4 lockout?
20.25%
Could you determine if the lockout was voltage related?
7.59%
Was you equipment found to be faulty by the MFG?
5.70%
Did you have at least a 10 successful flights prior to crash?
22.78%
Voters: 158. You may not vote on this poll

2.4 poll - Requesting pilot experiences

Old 03-08-2011, 05:08 PM
  #51  
Rv7garage
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Default RE: 2.4 poll - Requesting pilot experiences

Good poll. I had several lockouts with Spektrum DX6i/6000 combo. Never had a glitch with my current brand, knock wood.
Old 03-08-2011, 05:18 PM
  #52  
boggintuff
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Default RE: 2.4 poll - Requesting pilot experiences


ORIGINAL: JIMF14D

It is not all the same technology except that it all uses silicon! Futaba and Hitec implementations are not the same as say Spektrum DSM2 etc,

Was referring to the JR/Spektrum debate in earlier posts. Should have clarified.
Old 03-08-2011, 05:40 PM
  #53  
richie5150
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Default RE: 2.4 poll - Requesting pilot experiences

Well put jfetter !! My experience with Spektrum is near flawless. I had 1 receiver that revealed it's failure, in the form of a crashed airplane. After sending my radio and receiver in for inspection, it was determined, at first, that no problems were found. I replaced my Carl GoldbergTiger 60 w/OS 91FS and near the builds end, I was doing the bind and manipulating the servo plugs when I saw my ailerons flutter and go to full throws. AHH-HAAAA !! I sent the receiver back in and Spektrum replaced the receiver stating that the receiver would only fail while using "excessive force" ,regarding wiggling the servo plugs. In hindsight, I should have looked even harder for the glitch. Everything was brand spanking new and I was just finishing off the Tiger 60's first gallon of fuel. I was using all Hitec645MG's and thought them to be a little tight to get them all in the receiver(AR6200). I believe servo plug pressure and vibration caused a prong or board failure. I can't fault Spektrum since I flew a gallons worth of time beforehand. Sometimes,... Excrement Happens !!! The new receiver works perfectly as do the other 6 that I have. It is so much more pleasant to fly and not worry about who has what channel or losing signal and that gives pilots a clearer head to make the right stick movements to avoid sudden stops. I am still very impressed with Spektrum and hope that everyone can jump on to the 2.4 gravy train.
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Old 03-08-2011, 06:29 PM
  #54  
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Default RE: 2.4 poll - Requesting pilot experiences


ORIGINAL: jfetter

I think the key to 2.4 GHz is LESS planes are lost than with 72 MHz, which in itself is a step forward. It may be due to the 2.4 GHz technology or the ModelMatch technoogy but as long as each revision of technoogy improves reliability, we're all better off. I would say this though, the numbers in your poll need to be adjusted for the amount of radio's in use, I'd say 80% JR/Spekrum is a reality...

Jack
That being said, I also just sent my JR 12x back to Horizon for the DSMx upgrade, my plan is to equip all my jets from this point out with DSMx RX's, I go to a lot of shows and it can't hurt to have a more robust system when many 2.4 systems are in operation concurrently. I also want to clarify my 2 incidents were with cheaper RX's, I've never had an issue with RX's with multiple remotes (9 and 12 channel) and I feel confident that the issues I did have were loss of signal. Funny how we jump on 2.4 GHz and get angry when in the past, a 72 MHz failure would just be "accepted" as "oh well, stuff happens..." and we'd move on. DSMx is a direct result of large events, learning as you go is a good thing and I am glad they (Spektrum/JR) took some complaints of failures at a few larger events seriously enough to create this update to DSM2...

Jack
Old 03-08-2011, 07:07 PM
  #55  
DaddySam
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Default RE: 2.4 poll - Requesting pilot experiences

Futaba 9C with the TM-8 module, then Futabab 10 CAG, and my son flies with a 7C 2.4. We all fly with 4.8 volt rx packs, glow, gas, and electric. No problems at all.
Sam
Old 03-08-2011, 07:34 PM
  #56  
cap10b
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Default RE: 2.4 poll - Requesting pilot experiences

OsxPro,
I fly for Wild Hare and we were sitting around brainstorming about flight pack batteries and the subject came up why 2.4's lock out and why crashes and the answer was most people have battery problems and done realize it. They do a range check do a wiggle flight control check and their off to the wild blue yonder. They really dont know or dont care how many amps the plane is pulling or what the MaH drain is per flight. They stick batteries in they have always used and then load the plane up with eletronic gadgets and wonder why they have brown out or lock out.

Not any fault of the Radios just lack of attention to details.

JDS
Oh and I fly Airtonics, Stylus on 2.4 module FHSS1 and SD-10G FHSS1 and FHSS3 and RDS8K FHSS1

Old 03-08-2011, 08:32 PM
  #57  
psb667
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Default RE: 2.4 poll - Requesting pilot experiences

Perhaps I should change that to any rc crash you can walk away from is a good crash.(Its in reference to not losing your cool when you plow one in.)
Old 03-08-2011, 09:33 PM
  #58  
flyallday
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Default RE: 2.4 poll - Requesting pilot experiences

I have a DX 7 and 5 planes with ar 7000's. Never had any problems. Even though the poll says Spekturm has had more problems, I am buying a DX 8 tomorrow. It baffles me just how any of these set ups stay up in the air with very few problems concidering how many are out there. Out of 20+ new cars I have bought over the years, 1 was a lemon... Even with a Futuba 72 system 25 years ago, never any problems. Add another entry in the poll "never had a problem" and it would be interesting.

Harry
Old 03-09-2011, 08:02 AM
  #59  
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Default RE: 2.4 poll - Requesting pilot experiences

Absolutely! Bottom line up front KNOW YOUR VOLTAGE REQUIREMENTS!

When I made the switch to 2.4, I had a momentary lock out on my 50cc plane, but recovered. I also locked out a .60 size electric. It was a hard hit, but re-buildable. Both of these were due to my own lack of understanding of the voltage requirements of 2.4. I made the improvements and have had ZERO lock-outs since.
I also have one RX that seems to need re-binding all the time. It probably is somehow related to all the crap I have plugged into the receiver (lights, gear, and flaps on servo regulators). Either way, I just make sure I have a good link before each flight and have had no problems in the air.
Old 03-09-2011, 12:42 PM
  #60  
rfk1381
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Default RE: 2.4 poll - Requesting pilot experiences

While well intentioned, most of what I have read or observed would indicate "lockouts" are often due to problems with the on-board power system, giving the appearance of "lockout", then all the other reasons. Unless one did a foresnsic analysis of the aftermath of the lockout, how would one know its source?
Old 03-09-2011, 01:00 PM
  #61  
BuschBarber
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Default RE: 2.4 poll - Requesting pilot experiences


ORIGINAL: rfk1381

While well intentioned, most of what I have read or observed would indicate ''lockouts'' are often due to problems with the on-board power system, giving the appearance of ''lockout'', then all the other reasons. Unless one did a foresnsic analysis of the aftermath of the lockout, how would one know its source?
With JR/Spektrum 2.4Ghz, if the receiver looses power, due to a sharp voltage drop (Brownout - usually caused by a high current draw from the servos), the Receiver will reboot, but not go into Failsafe, and control will be restored. If the Receiver loses all power, due to a bad or weak battery, for example, the Receiver does not go into Failsafe and it cannot reboot.
If the receiver looses the signal from the Transmitter, due to Interference or temporary loss of power to the Transmitter, the receiver goes into Failsafe until the signal is restored. This is referred to a loss of the Link
In most cases, with Failsafe Hold being most often used, all Control Surfaces Hold their positions and the Throttle goes to Idle.

So if if the radio seems Locked Out, and the Throttle goes to Idle, you should have control restored in a second or two and the Throttle will resume it's previous setting.
Old 03-09-2011, 01:27 PM
  #62  
rmh
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Default RE: 2.4 poll - Requesting pilot experiences

OK lissen up- Here is a typical scenario:
batt is low/poor overloaded -whatever
When the demand (power requirement) is too much to maintain min req voltage - the rx shuts down goes to hold - THEN if the voltage rises back above mins the rx comes on and the servos go back to work.
This can happen in a rapid violent on/off sequence -with servos flailing all over the place
THIS is a solid indication of a power failure - YOUR fault -not the radio's fault ALSO an overworked ESC will do the same thing .
ALSO a loose connector pin-which is overheated
When would you see this ?
when using servos which draw enough to produce the off/on again reaction
I have tried this on the bench -it is perfectly repeatable -use a low start of charge 4.8 batt and dual or high powered servo
It can happen with ANY battery of any voltage - thi is just a test arrangement
Old 03-09-2011, 02:16 PM
  #63  
Quikturn
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Default RE: 2.4 poll - Requesting pilot experiences

A few years ago I was flying my Midstar on my Hitec (72) radio and noticed the rudder twitch a few times. At first I thought it was me (first flight of the year) but when I realized it was something else I landed immediately.

Sure enough my battery was very weak. Since then I cycle all my batteries and keep a log on them so I can track their performance. When a battery's capacity falls below 75% I replace it. I believe the practice of cycling and knowing the capacity of your batteries could help everyone.
Old 03-09-2011, 02:23 PM
  #64  
rmh
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Default RE: 2.4 poll - Requesting pilot experiences

Very good practice -for cells which can be cycled
The new 2.4 radios - using really stump pulling servos, often use A123 or LiPos -
the momentary power drains on some setups are staggering .
The A123 and high C rate Lipos have very flat discharge curves and require a different technique to make sure they are ok
The absolute best is a charger which balances and records power used
Cyling is really not a necessary part of these technologies.
Old 03-09-2011, 04:27 PM
  #65  
Quikturn
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Default RE: 2.4 poll - Requesting pilot experiences

What I use is an Accu Cycle Elite to cycle my batteries. It times charge and discharge cycles as well as giving you how many milli amps were charged or discharge. It works for LiPos too.
Old 03-09-2011, 07:35 PM
  #66  
scooterinvegas
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Default RE: 2.4 poll - Requesting pilot experiences

What I would like to know is HARD sells numbers. Do I think I will get them here? No, but....

At my LHS, It took like 6 months to sell a 7C that was in the case, so they stop ordering them. But they sell like 6 Spektrums a month, well, till last month.

My point is, the three places I fly, DSM2 is the overwhelming radio of choice. (Lots of DX7's & DX8's)

Could negative poll results be slightly off because more people fly DSM2/X than another brand??

I also feel the radio choice could be influenced by reign because people/newbies tend to buy whats popular at their local field. So even though one brand is popular in one place, maybe 3 county's over most fly a completely different brand.....

I think I am going to walk the flight line / pits and take a poll.
Old 03-09-2011, 08:59 PM
  #67  
cap10b
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Default RE: 2.4 poll - Requesting pilot experiences

All,
RMH is absolutely right Cycling A123 or Lipos is useless, its capacity used and replaced that counts.
Draw 3/4 capacity of your pack with the total flight times added together spells trouble. You can
fly all day long in a circle of the field, perform one snap and the plane can lock out on a set up
that draws near the capacity of the pack. Failsafe dont mean squat headed for the ground at low
throttle.

jds




Old 03-09-2011, 10:15 PM
  #68  
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Default RE: 2.4 poll - Requesting pilot experiences

I have been using Turnigy 5S 5000mah LiPo packs, in two electric aircraft, all last summer. I have two Energizer 6v Golf Cart batteries, in series, in the back of my van. I connect two FMA 10S chargers to this 12v source. It takes me 45 min, total, to charge two packs per charger. After a fresh charge, I fly about 6 min, and the capacity drops from 100% to 15%. These results have been very repeatable all summer. If I fly more than 7 min, the ESC hits the cuttoff voltage and shuts down the motor.

I find these chargers to be very reliable and very consistent. All my Rx battery packs are either LiPo or LiFe. I have never had a failure using these chargers.
Old 03-10-2011, 04:07 AM
  #69  
JIMF14D
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Default RE: 2.4 poll - Requesting pilot experiences

I fly mostly at one small field club. Even though Iam a Hitec fan/A9 owner, Iwould say that 90% of the 2.4 owers are Spektrum. Why not, simple, not too expensive and they seem to work well and they got to 2.4 first. I owned a DX6i for some time while I was waiting for Hitec to deliver 2.4 systems.

For the guys on 72mhz, it is mostly Futaba with a few Airtronics and very few Hitec.

I am sure the poll will show more Spektrum problems because there are many more Spektrum systems. Also if you read around RCUniverse you will see more people mentioning Spektrum RX problems I think.

I would say that a lot more crashes come from poor prep and battery issues along with "stupid thumbs" than real radio problems.

Jim D
Old 03-10-2011, 08:44 AM
  #70  
rfk1381
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Default RE: 2.4 poll - Requesting pilot experiences

I fly Futaba 2.4 but most of the other 2.4 fliers at our club field fly Specktrum /JR 2.4, primarily based on price-point and what others use. Most fly error free but every now and then the DSM links unbind or other weird stuff happens. Kind of difficult to sort out what were the root causes. DSM was first in the 2.4 pool so naturally that is the predominant technology. I will stay with my Futaba FASST equipment even though the cost of individual DSM receivers is relatively quite low, because I look at DSM technology more of a "consumer" price-point designed technology. The extra $30 paid for a FASST receiver is minimal compared to the cost of a quarter scale aircraft digging a new trench, and this old electrical engineer finds some confidence knowing Futaba uses their 2.4 link  technology in noisy factory environments.
Old 03-10-2011, 01:00 PM
  #71  
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Default RE: 2.4 poll - Requesting pilot experiences

Hmm...


Here's what I observe on the car side of things. I know planes are different, but bear with me here.

2.4ghz radios are fast on track to standard issue in cars. Everything from 1/36 scale indoor cars to 1/5 scale gasoline buggies use it, many of which straight from the factory, and nobody ever reports any sort of shenanigans with their radio gear. Now I can hear a lot of you going "Well your cars draw way less power than our planes do". This is true. Even the biggest MT with the meatiest rubber on it isn't going to draw as much power as an enormous 3D bird running a 50cc gas engine. But our power sources are a whole lot smaller too. Many of us who still run nitro run four AA alkalines(I prefer duracells, myself). Those of us that don't usually get along happily with a ~1700mah NiMH hump pack. We don't have Lipo, Life or A123 RX batts and we sure as hell don't have redudant batteries. Even if we wanted to we just don't have the room for them in our radio boxes.

Electric guys don't run a receiver battery at all, they just tap off the main pack that's also supplying the motor. Receiver power on these vehicles comes through the speed controller via signal lead, and the switch is usually on the speed controller itself. We're also running a whole lot closer to possible interference. Power lines, cell phones, wireless routers, these things are far closer to our receivers than your planes are likely to get. They're also down in the mud and snow, getting smacked around with hits so hard you wonder how the truck itself doesn't snap clean in half, and are exposed to engine vibrations plane receivers are spared from(Main reason for this is we don't have room in our RX boxes for foam padding).

Yet we don't have problems. We should. We beat on our receivers far harder than you guys ever will and feed them way less power. But nobody ever complains of their 2.4 causing their monster truck to get closely acquainted with the nearest tree.


I, personally, don't run 2.4(I'm still on 27am fer cryin' out loud!), but I will be on 2.4 sooner or later.

I'm actually rather curious why quite a few plane guys are constantly bashing and ragging on 2.4 while us car guys never have a problem.


Oh, and when I get my first plane, I'm going straight to 2.4. As I said nobody in the car world has problems with 2.4, and it seems the majority of plane guys don't, and I can land a nice Futaba 4ch 2.4 for 99.99, so why not?
Old 03-10-2011, 03:46 PM
  #72  
rmh
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Default RE: 2.4 poll - Requesting pilot experiences

99% of 2.4 problems are user caused
My cars -on 27 were "hinky"- so I went 2.4 -solved ALL problems
Old 03-10-2011, 05:18 PM
  #73  
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Default RE: 2.4 poll - Requesting pilot experiences

I have, in my hand, one of my "Spektrum Voltage Protector"s (part number SPM1600). Now, this is a simple device, and it exists for one reason, because the Mfg. knows there MAY be an issue if the dreaded "Brown Out" occurs (meaning a lock-out, and re-set). How many people use these? How many people know they Exist? How many people run 5 cells instead of 4? How many people cycle their batteries regularly? How many people are careful about battery maintenance? How many people replace their packs when they see a significant drop in capacity? I don't know if people realize that better technology means we need to be more mindful of these things. I know we never had to worry about anti-virus software, but guess what? Things change. So I have to come back to MY BELIEF that these errors are issues that are self-inflicted. Again, 13 receivers, 3 years, many flights, and no issues with my Spektrum. I am buying more receivers soon, and adding to my airplane hangar with NO WORRIES. Gas, Glow, Electric. No issues. Just my $0.02

Dave
Old 03-15-2011, 07:00 PM
  #74  
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Default RE: 2.4 poll - Requesting pilot experiences

Thanks for your input fellas! It's very much appreciated. Unfortunately there are those folks posting negative comments despite my requests to refrain from doing so. The old saying goes, "there's one (or more in the case) in every crowd. I'd like to reiterate why I'm posting this. Several of my flying buddies have lost some serious $$$ in 2.4 related crashes and I'm trying to ascertain if others out there are experiencing the same issues. The more we can put our heads together & get more info out there, the better off we all are! I completely understand that "lockouts" are related to much more than the Tx & Rx themselves. I'm trying to educate myself more on this matter for my - & your benefit. Before I move to 2.4, I want all the information I can muster so as to prevent the loss of any aircraft.

Please keep your posts coming but remember, if you don't have anything positive to contribute - please move on an flame somewhere else. Your negative comments are not welcome here.
Old 03-16-2011, 08:56 AM
  #75  
JIMF14D
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Default RE: 2.4 poll - Requesting pilot experiences

It is pretty simple.
The RC systems are a pound or so of solid state circuits etc. The calculated reliability for a typical RC system is probably 100,000 hours (I am pulling that number out of you know where......)... How many hours have we all gone without making a human error?

Your car has many more parts working in a much tougher environment.

That is why most RC crashes are operator errors in terms of poor preflight preparation and dumb thumb moves in flight. I have seen guys fly into the top of trees on final and say "I got hit, Igot hit".

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