87GLHS208

I have 2 Futaba Attack-4 radios, that are AM. Both of these were bought right around the time of the switch to narrow FM band (stickers say 1991). Both of these radios have the gold stickers, but Im wondering if they are ok to use at the local field??

I have a few other radios so if I cant use them at the field, no big deal, Ill maybe build a park flyer and use these radios for back yard only (well away from any flying fields in the area).

Clay

FOD MAN

They are legal to use. go to the futaba home page and print off the information on on which radios are legal. you will need this as you will be surprised at how many think only fm is legal.most of the disinformation about am radio's was caused by people who could make a profit by selling new fm radio's

87GLHS208

I looked at the Futaba website top to bottom and could not find any info. Could you point me to the right spot as Ive missed it somewhere!!

thanks!

clay

FOD MAN

go to the futaba home page, click on the( faq's,) then click on (service, parts and discontinued products) it will be about the fifth question on the left side of the page. hope this get's you there.

zxcv11

From what I've read on Futabas site,and heard from LHS/clubs, if your Tx has the transformed '91 sticker then your good to go!! If your club still questions you....you could always have 'em hook ya up to the ole scope and check 'er out That should settle things real quick...ya??


Brian

87GLHS208

Yup, found the FAQ info FOD MAN was talking about, and it says as long as the transmitter and reciever have the "91" sticker, you are good to go!

So those transmitters are still good in the world of RC!!

thanks guys!

clay

linclogs

QUOTE: "...as long as the transmitter and reciever have the "91" sticker, you are good to go! "

"They" (the authorized gold sticker facilities) did not put stickers on the receivers - only the transmitters. I have 3 "gold stickered" radios and the stickers are only on the transmitters.

87GLHS208

That why I said "91" sticker. I have a "1991 certified narrow band" sticker on both my recievers and my transmitters. The gold stickers are primarly on my transmitters, but I do have a couple of gold stickers on my recieves.

You have to think, these AM radios Im talking about are from 1991/1992 era, and what they did not, isnt necessarily what they did then.

Clay

linclogs

Possibly the receivers were sent in by themselves? Perhaps then they put stickers on them?

When mine were done, I sent both transmitters and receivers at the same time. One was done by Kraft Midwest (if I remember correctly) and one was done by Radio South, but I don't remember who did the 3rd one was (it was a long time ago!). Each time they only put the stickers on my transmitters, but I sorta wish they had put them on the receivers, too. That way when they get mixed up years later, I could more easily tell which receivers had been done!

87GLHS208

Never were sent in. I bought these radios/recievers brand new as set, in the box. Who knows, maybe I just have an odd ball set!

clay

zxcv11

what really confused the heck out of me was what seemed like some contradictory statements on the Futaba FAQ page. 1 rule says that if your Tx is under a certain channel #(and therefore under a certain freq.), you are good to go. Here is the direct quote from [link=http://www.futaba-rc.com/faq/service-faq.html#q41]Futaba FAQ's[/link]
OK....my old Conquest FP-T4NL was manufactured on Channel 34, so it should be "definetly"legal according to this rule,end of story right? BUT here's this further down the page.
OK....as before, my radio IS a 4NL unit.
Mmmm...just me, or do these 2 statements completely contradict each other??!![sm=bananahead.gif]
I did contact Futaba about this and was first given a stock reply about lead solder issues....no joke..lol.
Then the CS rep. wrote about my Tx possibaly being switched over...blahblahblah.
(No, it was manufactured on that Freq), and that he really doesn't know.
<Deep Breath>
OK, so if anyone could un-twist my head after this one, I would GREATLY appreceate it [sm=biggrin.gif][sm=biggrin.gif]
I would hook it up to an O-scope if it was available.
yours in Confusion
Brian[8D]

toddly24

Ok, I have an old FP-T4NL and it's on channel 20, according to that rule, it is legal, am I right???

rctrax

I was told by Mr Pete Waters at Kraft Midwest that AM radios that were converted to narrow band and gold stickered were completly legal and he did not make any qualifieing statments about any specficic models that were not. Mr. Waters is/was a member of the AMA frequency committee. However rx's are not capable of being converted so must be replaced thus no gold sticker. It is my contention that as long as no one is on an ajasant channel there is no harm in using an older wide band rx. The rx only recieves a signal and does not send out anything therefor cannot interfere with any other radio, The only ones you have to worry about is anyone on an ajacant channell interfering with you.

Rick Lindsey

so long as you don't blame someone else for shooting you down from an adjacent channel!

Bax

My Feedback: (11)

Mmmm...just me, or do these 2 statements completely contradict each other??!![sm=bananahead.gif]
I did contact Futaba about this and was first given a stock reply about lead solder issues....no joke..lol.
OK, so if anyone could un-twist my head after this one, I would GREATLY appreceate it [sm=biggrin.gif][sm=biggrin.gif]
I would hook it up to an O-scope if it was available.
yours in Confusion
Brian[8D]
[/quote]

Actually, the FAQ has a series of questions about your system. If your transmitter "passes" one area, it's legal. So if it was manufactured below Ch.38, as you say your's was, then it's legal. The later statement does not apply.

One problem with "narrow-banding" is the fact that the FCC rules state that a transmitter is legal to use if it can be maintained to a frequency tolerance of 0.002% (as well as have the proper output spectrum). The wide-band transmitters almost always had a tolerance of 0.005%. If a upgrade cannot keep a transmitter at 0.002% tolerance, then it's not a legal upgrade. Many upgrades done in the field only changed the output to narrow band, but did not alter the tolerances. Those transmitters became illegal to use in 1998, even if the did have a gold sticker. You need to check with your transmitter's manufacturer to be sure.

We're also talking about transmitters that are all over a decade old. Some of those units are about due to be retired anyway. Systems that old are almost always no longer supported by the manufacturer, and parts availablility will be quite problematic.

toddly24

Hey Bax,

Do you know anything about the FP-R4F reciever? Is this a narrow band reciever?

linclogs

Quote: "We're also talking about transmitters that are all over a decade old. Some of those units are about due to be retired anyway. Systems that old are almost always no longer supported by the manufacturer, and parts availablility will be quite problematic."

Mr. Baxter, I must take exception to part of your statment.

I have (and still use) a Cirrus 900-FM 7-channel transmitter that I purchased new from Hobby Shack in 1986 (I believe that makes it about 18 years old - definitely way more than a decade). For those that aren't familiar with the radio (or "Cirrus" brand) it was built by Futaba for Hobby Shack (Futaba "J" FM system). I had gotten out of the hobby for awhile (new house) and when I came back, the system was no longer legal for use - it was "wide band".

About 3 years ago, I emailed Futaba to inquire about having the transmitter upgraded and getting a new reciever (I knew the receiver could not be upgraded). The answer I got from Futaba was, "Parts are no longer available and it can't be repaired". Totally false! What Futaba SHOULD have said is THEY (Futaba) don't repair or stock parts for their older radios any longer. But there ARE companies that can and do repair the older radios (assuming the unit in question is capable of being upgraded), and they still stock the parts. But these companies do not make their money SELLING new radios, they make it by REPAIRING and UPGRADING older radios. I WAS able to send my radio to an independent service center and get everything I wanted done.

This past Fall I was able to obtain another 900-FM transmitter and in October, I also had it upgraded to narrow band standards. I'm now using the second Cirrus 900-FM 7-channel transmitter with a Tower System 3000 6-channel FM receiver (also built by Futaba). The nice thing about this is, although Tower states their system is "6-channel", the receiver supplied is actually a 7-channel Futaba FM receiver. By using the old, but upgraded (and perfectly legal) Cirrus 7-channel transmitter, I can utilize all 7 channels of the Tower receiver.

Even though the Cirrus 900-FM radio came out in the mid-1980's, it remains my favorite of all time. While it's not a computer radio, it still offers more "bells and whistles" than most any other non-computer radio even today. With features including adjustable dual rates on aileron, elevator and rudder, built-in electronic mixing of V-tail, elevons or rudder/ailerons (also with dual rate capability), ability to read the receiver battery (under load) by hooking a jumper cable from the airplane charge jack to the transmitter and reading the flight pack directly on the transmitter battery meter (for "go"/"no go" capability), *electronic servo function reversing on the transmitter, and built-in trainer capability. While some features are not considered anything particularly innovative today, it was unusual to see all these features combined into a "house radio" from a mail order hobby company back then.

*"Electronic servo function reversing", as opposed to "servo reversing". The manual states, "This distinction is very important when using any of the mixers. The switches do not reverse a single servo in the mix mode. Instead they reverse the entire function. Please note that BOTH mixers may be used at the same time."

Quite innovative for the mid-1980's, and they still make excellent "sport radios" today. With proper "care and feeding", I still hope to get many more years of service from them.

049flyer

My Feedback: (18)

Part of the confusion stems from the radio manufacturers themselves:

When the manufacturer states that the radio cannot be upgraded or certified to narrow band, what they really are saying is that THEY CANNOT PERFORM THE UPGRADE.

Any other third party radio shop should be able to upgrade and certify the radio for you.

All upgrades are performed on the TRANSMITTER or transmitter module only. Receivers cannot be upgraded to 91 specs. Although the law only addresses the transmitters, if you want to be safe and not risk getting shot down you will still need a narrow band receiver. Narrow band AM receivers are hard to find these days.

Usually by the time you certify the radio, buy new batteries and a narrow band AM receiver you are pretty close to the price of a new radio with more modern features. However many, myself included, believe that the old "Top of the Line" radios were much higher quality than what is available today and are thus worth the price of the upgrade.

Single stick radios are an example of a radio worth the upgrade because they are no longer made.

Most if not all FM transmitters are legal regardless of manufacturer.

I have Kraft radios that are over 25 years old and still plugging along with no problems! Certified and perfectly legal and safe!

Most folks are unaware of all of these details! Call the radio shops and get the straight story before trashing a good radio.

tadawson

Um, this should be "THEY WILL NOT PERFORM THE UPGRADE" since these is not a reason in the world that they can't.

Bottom line is this, when you start hearing B/S like "It is time that radio be retired" and "We don't stock parts" what the Mfg. is really saying is
"We have not been able to do adequate damage to your wallet recently, so we are artificially creating a situation to motivate you to replace perfectly good gear" Lets face it, with the exception of a few custom IC's (in newer gear at least) there are ZERO unique components in a radio system that can't be gotten from any decent electronics supplier. Note the comment "We don't STOCK parts?" More weasel words - all this means is they don't WANT to - not that they CAN'T!

At any rate, in doing this and spreading their BS they have created a good market for 3rd party repair shops for those who know better, and for the hobby shops to sell more gear for those that beleive this bull.

I don't know if it is just me, but I feel like as the years go on, manufacturers would love to find a way to stop doing any service - just sell more stuff . . . and fill the landfills, deplete resources, gouge customers . . .warranty, what warranty, that costs $$$
Why was it so easy to get darn near anything repaired about 10-20 years ago, and now all you can find is "module swappers" - I have seen very few repair facilities that actually REPAIR rather than replace major subassemblies at a major cost . . .
It gets to the point that I can reverse engineer, troubleshoot and repair a product for less time and money than the Mfg. wants - who SUPPOSEDLY has all the documentation, and who should be able to do it faster/better/cheaper!

Welcome to the disposable era!

Vent over - I feel better!

- Tim

apteryx

I have a thread in the "Vintage" section on older equipment, test specifications, etc as I've tried to unravel some of the info. I've provided data on several randomly selected transmitters provided by club members.

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/vint...1429434/tm.htm

Basically very few AM radios will meet NB specifications without some modification. One that does (based on manufacturer testing ...and it's close) is a Futaba FP-T4NBL (their may be others). The Futaba site also says that.

Other AM transmitters were narrow banded (gold sticker tested) by several service groups who are still doing this work today.
Manufacturers are not doing this today because 1) official AMA "gold stickering" by manufacturers has expired 2) the new FM stuff they offer really IS better, and in most cases, much better. Usually the NB proceedure was to change the transition time of the modulation pulses which reduces the bandwidth. While that fixes the potential interference problem with others, but it will also require range checking and probable retuning/replacement of your matching AM receiver so you don't have a problem with YOUR plane. Most of these transmitters all have easy line of sight communications capability BUT, you never know how close to "proper reception" your receiver is if the modulation levels are reduced/altered. There were several good dual conversion AM receivers manufactured with good selectivity, sensitivity, etc. but many that were not.

Frequency has nothing to do with NB or not NB because people can change crystals only. The one point is that all of today's 72/75Mhz NB frequencies must have an odd number (1,3,5,7,9) in the tens Khz position (72.2"7"0, etc). NB specs also call for 0.002% crystals (+/-1.5Khz of the specified frequency).

linclogs

Quotes:

(By 2fast): "However many, myself included, believe that the old "Top of the Line" radios were much higher quality than what is available today and are thus worth the price of the upgrade."

(By tadawson): "Bottom line is this, when you start hearing B/S like "It is time that radio be retired" and "We don't stock parts" what the Mfg. is really saying is "We have not been able to do adequate damage to your wallet recently, so we are artificially creating a situation to motivate you to replace perfectly good gear"."

"I don't know if it is just me, but I feel like as the years go on, manufacturers would love to find a way to stop doing any service - just sell more stuff . . . and fill the landfills, deplete resources, gouge customers . . ."

Amen to all that!

When the narrowbanding issue first came about we were told that after a certain date, all our radios would basically be junk. They would no longer be legal to use, and new radios would have to be purchased. I first heard about all this from the AMA through the club I belonged to at the time. They told us about the "silver sticker" program for radios that could never be made to comply with the new regulations, but would temporarily allow use of older
equipment, theoretically until you could buy a new system. The "gold sticker" program was for radios that could be made to comply with the new rules by upgrading them, however a date was decided upon which, after that, the older systems could no longer be upgraded. The date was not based on any technical reason that the old sets could no longer be made to comply, but IMHO, just to help "get rid of all those pesky old radios that were keeping
newer radios from being purchased!" I've said this before: Doesn't that sound like a scheme the model radio manufacturers may have dreamed up? If YOU manufactured radio control sets, wouldn't you just be "lickin' your chops" at that prospect?

No one will ever convince me that there was not colusion between AMA and the radio manufacturers for exactly the reason stated by Tim (above): "We have not been able to do adequate damage to your wallet recently, so we are artificially creating a situation to motivate you to replace perfectly good gear".

apteryx

A little truth everywhere........

The problem is that we R/Cers have been growing by leaps and bounds from "the old days", there is only so much band spectrum we are allowed to operate in, in order to allow more people to occupy the same band the frequency spacing was reduced, the reduced
frequency spacing required narrow band transmission and reception to prevent interference and for safety. Here we are.

It is perfectly OK to get your old "Top of the Line" AM transmitter gold sticker approved today at one of the R/C service businesses and fly with it. Your club frequency/safety officer will approve it's use and you fly. You do have to realize the down side. If you have a wide AM receiver and another guy has a wide AM transmitter on the next frequency (20Khz from your's), he may be able to "partially control" YOUR plane. Since all of the older FM gear by the big manufacturers was Narrow Band, there is no problem there in the first place. The problem is with the wide sidebands of the old AM gear.

I personally like the feel of one of the old aluminum Kraft, EK logictrol, Heathkit, etc radios.

gws1

My Feedback: (13)

We have to remember that the manufaturers are in business to make money. If they don't, we don't get any new equipment, we are a pretty niche market here. We are talking about a couple hundred dollar radio system, and I really don't think it is realistic to expect 2x the warranty that you get for a $30,000 car. Personally I fly old ACE equipment. I sent the transmitters off to Pete Waters to have the transmitters RF deck NB. Occasionally I do still fly my AM gear with the old wide band Silver Seven receivers, never had a problem yet. But then I'm not flying anywhere near anyone or anything else. If that is the case, I'll bring out the FM gear, and I am more comfortable flying with that around others. I've got the gold stickers on them, and people do a double take when I bring them out quite often.

I've got several Kraft sets and many Ace sets, as well as a few Futaba, and a few Airtronics. I too like the feel of the old aluminum cases, but I sure like the new micro gear for receivers and servos! We wouldn't have any of that if the manufacturers are out of business. I hear stories from people who are praising the manufacturers for warranty work, and others who have nothing good at all to say about them. I guess it is pretty much that way all around. If you have a bad experience with one, you at least have several choices of who to do business with next time.

best regards,
Greg

tadawson

I guess to sum up my rant, yes they are in a money making business, but as the old slogan goes "We make our money the old fashioned way, by EARNING it . . ." If the radion Mfgs. came up with new gear with new features, software, capabilities, etc. that we as modelers felt that we needed or wanted, they would do plenty of business. What I see in a lot of cases instead is "Same-old same-old" technology and gear, and all these borderline unethical policies and procedures to get us to buy it anyway - not because there is anything we need or want in the new gear, but becase we are forced to for one reason or another. Frankly, I in get incredubly offended by that thinking, and the more a company does that, the less apt I am to every buy their product. Perhaps some will say that I am depriving myself, but so be it. My business is won by EARNING it, not by FORCING it!

- Tim