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Specktrum radios; why did you crash? Why did you have a "brown-out?"

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Specktrum radios; why did you crash? Why did you have a "brown-out?"

Old 09-08-2015, 07:40 AM
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TOPGUN WINNER
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Default Specktrum radios; why did you crash? Why did you have a "brown-out?"

I HAVE LOST AT LEAST A DOZEN AIRCRAFT SINCE I STARTED USING SPEKTRUM RADIO EQUIPMENT. AT FIRST, I THOUGHT I WAS BEING "JAMMED" BY AN OUTSIDE SOURCE...ALL OF MY FRIENDS FLYING SPEKTRUM STARTED HAVING THE SO CALLED "BROWN-OUTS".

i HAVE BEEN TOLD THAT THE ONLY CRASHES IN "I MAC" (THAT WERE ATTRIBUTED TO RADIO MALFUNCTIONS) WAS SPEKTRUM. I HAVE SPOKEN TO TWO OF THE PILOTS THAT CRASHED AND THEY WERE INDEED FLYING SPEKTRUM DX-18 TOP OF THE LINE RADIOS.

WE HAVE HAD OVER 30 CRASHES AT JUST ONE OF THE CLUBS I BELONG TO. 100% SPEKTRUM RADIOS. ( i AM NOT INCLUDING "PILOT ERROR" CRASHES...THEY WILL ALWAYS TAKE THEIR TOLE. NO ONE IS PERFECT ALL THE TIME.


I AM TALKING ABOUT FLYING YOUR FAVORITE AIRPLANE. SHOWING YOUR FRIENDS WHAT YOU GOT AND "WHAM" YOU GOT NO CONTROL OF ANYTHING !!! YOU CAN'T EVEN CUT YOU THROTTLE TO REDUCE THE "IMPACT"...WHY? OH, YOU JUST HAD A "BROWN-OUT"...THAT'S COMMON WITH SPEKTRUM. I AM SICK OF HEARING THAT...COME ON SPEKTRUM...FIX YOUR PROBLEM. (HORIZON HOBBIES OWNS SPEKTRUM)

THAT SHOULD NOT BE "COMMON" WITH ANY RADIO...I FLY TWO OTHER BRANDS OF RADIOS AND HAVE NEVER HAD A PROBLEM OF ANY KIND WHEN IT COMES TO RADIOS...i HAVE BEEN FLYING U-CONTROL GAS SINCE 1945 AND RADIO CONTROL SINCE 1954...WOW, I MUST BE 80 AND STILL FLYING AND TEACHING ABOUT 20 STUDENTS A YEAR... I LOVE THIS HOBBY. MAYBE IF WE WORK TOGETHER WE CAN GET THE PROBLEM FIXED.

I TAKE THAT BACK...WE WILL GET THE PROBLEM FIXED...WHATEVER IT TAKES. RIGHT?

BEFORE WE GET INTO DETAILS: TELL US ABOUT YOU RADIOS PROBLEMS THAT CAUSED YOU TO CRASH. IT DOES NOT HAVE TO BE JUST SPEKTRUM...SHARE YOUR THOUGHTS ON WHY YOU HAD THE PROBLEM...MAYBE WI-FI CAUSED IT ...OR MAYBE A CELL PHONE....however, I THINK "NOT" I THINK IT IS A SELF INDUCED PROBLEM BY THE MANUFACTURER. THAT'S JUST ONE OPINION...EVERYONE HAS THEIR OWN. PLEASE SHARE YOURS. I THINK IT IS A DESIGN FLAW THAT GOT THROUGH BY RUNNING THE WRONG QUALITY TESTS...SUPPORT CAN'T FIND IT...REALLY.

IT IS VERY IMPORTANT THAT WE SOLVE THIS PROBLEM. ONE "IMAC" AIRPLANE CAN COST OVER $10,000...THAT'S A LOT TO LOOSE.
SOMEONE NEEDS TO BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE AND BE FORCED TO STEP UP AND FIX THIS PROBLEM.I PROMISE THAT THEY KNOW THAT THERE IS A FIX AVAILABLE. MAYBE THEY ARE TRYING TO FIGURE IT OUT ON THEIR OWN. IF SO, I WISH THEM ALL THE LUCK IN THE WORLD. IF NOT, MAYBE THEY SHOULD HIRE A GIGANTIC TESTING LAB AND SPEND MEGA THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS.

I AM SURE THAT IF WE GIVE THEM ENOUGH INFORMATION THEY WILL FIX THE PROBLEM...I AM ALSO SURE THAT IT IS A VERY SIMPLE FIX...
"BROWN OUTS" CAN MAKE YOU WANT TO QUIT FLYING OR JUST GET A NEW RADIO THAT DOES NOT HAVE THAT PROBLEM.

i AM SURE THAT THERE IS SOME "NOBODY" OUT THERE THAT KNOWS EXACTLY WHAT TO DO TO MAKE IT GO AWAY. MAYBE THEY WILL TALK TO THAT PERSON AND ACTUALLY FIND THE ANSWER. IF THEY HAVE A TECHNICAL EXPERT IN CHARGE THEY WILL. IF THEY HAVE AN "MBA" IN CHARGE THEY WILL NOT.

WHAT WOULD REALLY MAKE ME UPSET IF THE COMPANY KNEW THERE WAS A SIMPLE FIX FOR THE PROBLEM AND DID NOTHING ABOUT IT.
THEN, SHOULDN'T THEY BE REQUIRED TO PAY FOR EVERY AIRCRAFT THAT CRASHED USING THEIR RADIO. THAT SEEMS FAIR, DON'T YOU THINK SO?

SHARE YOUR THOUGHTS...I DON'T WANT TO TOSS MY SPEKTRUM IN THE TRASH..I HAVE OWNED SEVERAL AND LOVE THE RADIO...JUST CAN'T AFFORD ANY MORE "BROWN OUTS".
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Old 09-08-2015, 06:27 PM
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There is a problem no doubt and you have summed it up. You don't hear of "any" problems to this magnitude from other manufacturers. I'm sure by mid day tomorrow or sooner this post will be shut down because of the potential negativity it "can" bring upon Spektrum. But be that as it may I'm sure a regular moderator.....aka Spektrum defender....will get on here and educate us on how ignorant you and I are. How we are incapable of realizing how super duper their product is. The facts speak for themselves but like history will show...post after post after post......it's simply an end user created issue is what will be touted.

A very close friend of mine is prominent in the r/c car industry. He had his hands in the development of a 1/5 scale gas car that Losi put out that was coming as ready to run with "bind and drive" if you will, using the Spektrum brand radio equipment. Losi had a few hundred of these cars ready to ship in a warehouse in Los Angeles but could not ship them because there was a "small" issue that needed to be remedied. Bet you can guess what the issue was. My friend told the issue was with the receiver but was trusted to know this as he was part of development. Guess what kind of radio equipment he currently uses?? Right......sure as heck not Spektrum! So after some time the issue was determined to be the receiver antenna was too short and all, hundreds of cars, had to be unpackaged,disassembled,antenna modified then put back together and repackaged.....all under the radar. Oh and by the way.....the cars were tested with another manufacturers receiver with a SHORTER antenna and performed flawlessly.
Maybe the "defendent" moderator will tell us the "real" reason JR told Spektrum to kick sand and is now "amazingly" using similar protocol to other manufacturers.
Lets face it Spektrum, you got a problem, and there's simply no hiding it anymore.
Fix your garbage.
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Old 09-08-2015, 09:28 PM
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Can you explain what you mean by "Brownout"? It is kind of hard to follow what your saying between all your various posts in different forums about the same thing. From what I gathered you mentioned proof of a fundamental flaw in how the system is implemented.You were asked to explain how to fix it to one of their techs?
Im sure there are alot of users that would benefit from knowing what it is that is causing these "Brownouts".
The DIY contingent is always quick to find a hack or a fix to an identified problem.This forum is all about learning.
Could you possibly point us in the right direction?
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Old 09-09-2015, 04:38 AM
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WHAT IS A BROWN OUT AS I SEE IT:

THE Rx LIGHT IS SOLID AND EVERYTHING IS WORKING FINE...ALL IS GOOD.

YOU MOVE ONE OF YOUR STICKS AND WITHOUT ANY WARNING YOUR Rx LIGHT AND YOUR SATELITE Rx LIGHT GOES OUT...YOU HAVE NO BIND AT THIS POINT.

THIS IS WHAT WE CALL A "BROWN OUT"

AFTER 3-4 SECONDS THE LIGHT COMES BACK ON AND YOU ARE FLYING AGAIN...MAYBE...IF YOU ARE TRYING TO CORRECT THE AIRCRAFT AND KEEP IT FROM CRASHING, WHICH YOU SHOULD BE DOING, IF THE CONTROLS ARE DEFLECTED IT WILL INSTANTLY BROWN OUT AGAIN. I HAVE TAKEN VIDEOS OF THIS IN DETAIL.

I SENT MY RADIO AND 5 RECEIVERS TO HORIZON AND THEY COULD NOT FIND ANYTHING WRONG. WHEN I TRIED TO SEND THEM THE VIDEOS THEY WERE REJECTED BECAUSE THEIR SERVER WAS BLOCKING IT AND IT WAS NOT WORTH THEIR TIME TO MAKE A MINOR CHANGE TO ALLOW IT TO GO THROUGH.

I SENT THEM MY DX-8 TRANSMITTER AND THEY REPLACED IT WITH A DX-7...NOW I CAN'T FLY MY IMAC TYPE AIRCRAFT WITH ONLY 7 CHANNELS...PLUS, THE AR-8000 RECEIVERS ARE NOW ONLY 7 CHANNELS. THAT WAS THE BEST I COULD GET FOR TRYING TO HELP THEM.

I PURCHASED A 16 CHANNEL RECEIVER THAT DOES EVERYTHING THE DX-18 DOES EXCEPT BROWN OUT... I CAN USE ALMOST ANY NEW RECEIVER MADE.
IT COST $187.00. WE HAVE HAD FOUR PEOPLE FLYING THEM IN OUR CLUB FOR OVER A YEAR. THEY CAN NOT BROWN OUT. PRETTY COOL.
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Old 09-09-2015, 05:04 AM
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I have two aircraft set up with spektrum equipment for testing. I am afraid to fly either one. I have over 125 aircraft with engines. Been flying rc since 1953 when we built our own transmitters and receivers.

My next two videos will show exactly why spektrum has a severe problem with "brown outs"...it is so simple that any pilot will understand what they are looking at. That's the good news

the bad news is this: Spektrum has to make some major changes to correct the problem. It is within their system. Someone has changed something from the first units sold for whatever reason. (i have been flying spektrum along with my other radios since they first came out)

you can not fix the problem. That is why i am trying to talk to someone at corporate level that understands electronics at a very technical level. . They wanted me to talk to their lawyer...oh boy! I already have a 4.0gpa in contract law...what is their lawyer got to do with fixing a design flaw?

I will tell you that i have an idea on how to keep using your spektrum system untill they replace it with one that works for the average pilot. I will make a video of the test on both aircraft...it looks like you can buy the components required for around $100 per each aircraft.

Not cheap, but can make you feel safer. Spektrum needs to stand behind their problem and get it fixed. They should be held responsible for all the crashes they were responsible for.

They talk about their great support...ha-ha just try to talk to anyone above tech level and they tell you to go pound sand...they want to denie that they new anything about a problem...i was already told that on three occasions. This has been going on for several years and they still haven't figured it out. They just told me that they don't have a problem. There have been thousands of posts on the internet about failures that caused crashes. If they can't figure it out, why don't they hire a consultant that can...just saying...
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Old 09-09-2015, 05:12 AM
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To the OP.
With all of these brown outs; after the receiver shuts down and then the receiver comes back on , the LED in the receiver is lit solid.....correct?
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Old 09-09-2015, 05:15 AM
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You are correct. I have videos showing that exact problem
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Old 09-09-2015, 06:59 AM
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Booma rc: Great company / has everything a serious pilot would ever want.

Thanks for the post...i will be using you and passing it on to my 850 flying friends.

Great site for imac pilots.

Topgun
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Old 09-09-2015, 07:01 AM
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I've been using my JR10X's w/Spektrum DM-9 modules for several years now & I use Spektrum AR400 & AR600 Rx's exclusively, & NEVER had a so-called "brownout". I've had my planes out as far as one could see & never lost control. My pre-flight checks w/battery capacity, all connections, servo loading, & any lighting have been checked to insure no low/drop voltage issues. I've seen several so-called "brownouts at our flying field & EVERY incident was due to a low voltage issue due to the power supply. Your castigating Spektrum leaves a lot of doubt with all the related incidents you proclaim to have happened due to the Rx's. Something rotten in Denmark w/ the OP.

Denny
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Old 09-09-2015, 07:12 AM
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Well, I have flown Specktrum for almost 9 years and currently fly with a DX8. I have flown hundreds of hours across about 15 receivers and never had a problem. I fly a couple of airplanes with telemetry and have always had a rock solid connection in terms of frame loss. I am certainly sorry about your experience, but they will have to pry the DX8 out of my cold dead fingers before I give it up. It's been that good for me.
Ken
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Old 09-09-2015, 07:17 AM
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Thanks denny, great input...i do know why you have had no problems...however, it is not because you used spektrum receivers.

I was involved in the "black side"...i like your motto very much. My brother was in "udt-one" the very first "seal" team in 1941

on the hall of fame at the seal museum. Only survivor of udt one, four and seven in 1945.

Good luck on your flying...you will never have a brown out....in 1953 we built our own transmitters and receivers.my partner built the first proportional control system.for rc aircraft...that's where it all started...birmingham, michigan. Did not know that did you...
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Old 09-09-2015, 07:28 AM
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Hey ken, great post. I know it is all true...i also know why you have had no problems. You are very lucky. And will say "wow" when i disclose my findings...
I have flown spektrum for 9 years almost ten...my problems started about four years ago.you will know why you have had no problems as soon as i finish my testing. I loved my dx-8 as much as you. They could not replace it so they gave me a new dx-7 which is pretty cool...however, i can make it brown out any time i want to. It is an internal flaw in the circuit design.

I have owned three dx-8 transmitters and recommended hundreds to my students been flying gas since 1945.
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Old 09-09-2015, 07:44 AM
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When I was working at Texas Instruments in 1965 I had a friend who said he invented the PCM method of coding before Doug Spreng used it for models. I have had the "brown out" problem. I try to use at least 5 cells or 2 cells(LiFe) always. Use a regulator too.
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Old 09-09-2015, 08:06 AM
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We have noticed the same problem at our field. In the past, virtually all crashes were caused by pilot error or interference. In the last couple of years though, we have lost dozens of planes through failure of the radio link. It is easy to tell which are radio caused and which are pilot caused. Any experienced flyer can tell just by watching. We are monitoring radio caused crashes to try to determine what is common among them. That is the first step toward finding a cause. You seem to have isolated a cause. Would you let us all know what it is?

Jim
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Old 09-09-2015, 08:17 AM
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SORRY TO HEAR THAT DWAYNE...HOWEVER, THERE ARE THOUSANDS LIKE US.

FOR THE PAST FOUR YEARS I HAVE DEMANDED THAT NO ONE FLY WITH A 4 CELL NIMH RECEIVER BATTERY. SOME TIMES ONE CELL WILL REVERSE POLARITY FOR JUST NO REASON...EVEN WITH A 99% CHARGE. THEN YOU ONLY HAVE 2.7 V TO FLY YOUR PLANE AND THAT ISN'T GOING TO HAPPEN. ( IT DRAINS THE 3 GOOD CELLS)

I ONLY HAVE 6V 5S FOR Rx POWER. I USE LIFE IN MY BIG PLANES WITH REGULATORS TO MAKE SURE.

I DISCOVERED THE PROBLEM BY ACCIDENT WHILE SETTING UP A NEW AIRCRAFT (FOUR CRASHES IN TWO MONTHS...ZERO CONTROL) 98% CHARGE.ON BATTERY

I ALSO DISCOVERED THE COOLEST WAY TO EXPLANE EXPONENTIAL TO MY STUDENTS AND FRIENDS. I SET UP A LOT OF IMAC TYPE PLANES FOR SEVERAL CLUB MEMBERS.




AT LEAST WITH 5 CELLS SIX VOLTS YOU HAVE A CHANCE. JUST REMEMBER THAT MOST BATTERY CHECKERS CHECK FOUR CELLS FIRST AND SHOW 99% CHARGE. WHEN YOU SWITCH TO 5 CELLS IT MAY DROP TO "ZERO" OR LESS THAN 50% CHARGE...GO BACK AND CHARGE AGAIN.

THERE WAS A FLYING MOVIE CALLED "FATE IS THE HUNTER" WITH GLEN FORD. HE SAID ONE THING DOES NOT MAKE AN AIRPLANE CRASH IT IS FATE WHEN YOU HAVE THREE OR FOUR THINGS THAT TOGETHER CAUSES YOU TO CRASH. THIS IS LIKE THE MOVIE. IT TAKES A CERTAIN COMBINATION TO MAKE IT FAIL.

THAT IS OUR PROBLEM....
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Old 09-09-2015, 08:26 AM
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Sorry, to disagree, but luck has nothing to do with it. First, I make sure that the voltage from my regulator or BEC is perfectly matched to the voltage required by the servos. This is done to .1 volts. Next, I make sure that the total voltage and normal load of all servos operating matches or exceeds the capacity of the voltage regulator. Next, I roughly calculate the load required with 2 servos stalled (usually 50% of the servos on the plane) and add that to the normal load. This gives me the minimum size voltage regulator I should be flying with. Next, I use a battshare (or on one plane I use two Tech-aero voltage regulators in parallel set .25 volts apart) and connect two batteries to the voltage regulator. This gives me a hot spare battery. Then I test eveything to make sure that the receiver is getting proper voltage. Please note that I don't use a receiver switch. I just plug/unplug the batteries. If you decide to use a battery switch make sure that it is fail safe on. Don't know if this is perfect, but it ensures that the receiver is powered with good clean DC regardless the load on the servos. Oh yeah, I also make sure I understand how many mah are pulled from the battery during each flight. Typically, it is about 300mah per flight. So, I make sure that I don't draw my batteries down too far. 1100 mah pack with give me about 3 flights. I use 2S lipo or LIFE or 3S lipo. No reason, just whatever I had handy.

I am interested to see not only how you duplicate the failure, but the test conditions as well. I would be willing to try whatever you are doing on one of my planes to test your results. So, please provide your electrical setup as well as any video. Also, charge on battery, servos used, etc. Free this weekend.

Happy to do a comparison and see what happens.
Ken

Last edited by kdunlap; 09-09-2015 at 08:31 AM. Reason: added type of batteries I use
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Old 09-09-2015, 08:34 AM
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I HAVE ONLY TESTED SPEKTRUM BECAUSE IT WAS MY FAVORITE RADIO FOR NINE YEARS.

AT FIRST, I THOUGHT WE WERE BEING JAMMED...NOT TRUE

THEN WE LOOKED AT WI-FI SET UPS...NOT THAT
THEN WE LOOKED AT CELL PHONES...NOT THAT EITHER. i FLY MY BIG QUADS WITH A CELL PHONE TAKING MOVIES...WORKS GREAT.

IT IS A DESIGN FLAW BY SPEKTRUM AND THEY DO NOT HAVE A CLUE WHAT IT IS. I HAVE TALKED WITH THEM BUT GOT THE CORPORATE BLOCKADE. IF THEY ADMIT THERE IS A PROBLEM, THEY WILL BE LIABLE FOR ALL THE LOST AIRCRAFT...FOR ME ALONE IT IS OVER $40,000.

THEY CAN'T LOOSE A BIG LAWSUIT ON A FACTORY DEFECT.

THEY HAD MY RADIO A DX-8 FOR THREE WEEKS AND COULD FIND NOTHING WRONG. I KNOW WHY...REALLY.

I CAN TELL YOU THAT THERE IS A CURE BUT IT HAS TO COME FROM SPEKTRUM...YOU CAN'T DO IT AT HOME. I OFFERED IT TO THEM FOR ONE -TENTH WHAT I LOST...I WANTED A DX-18 RADIO...THEY REFUSED A $400 ITEM TO SAVE THEM MILLIONS. INSTEAD OF RETURNING MY DX-8 THEY DID GIVE ME A NEW DX-7 WHICH IS A REALLY COOL RADIO BUT I CAN MAKE IT BROWN OUT ANY TIME I WANT TO...I DOCUMENTED ALL MY TESTING WITH MOVIES...AN IDIOT CAN SEE THE PROBLEM IF THEY SEE MY FILM.

THEY ARE LEAVING ME NO OPTIONS. THEY WANT ME TO TELL THEM HOW TO FIX IT AND NOT EVEN REPLACE WHAT I HAVE LOST...THAT IS NOT RIGHT.
THEY NEED TO GET THE FIX STARTED AND AND START REPLACING THE BAD COMPONENTS...IT IS NOT GOING AWAY.
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Old 09-09-2015, 08:41 AM
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One more thing... from what I read, you simply don't wake up one day and find that a NIMH battery suddenly reverses charge. The polarity reversal results from damage during charging or an over discharge. So, I would think that if you check your pack before you go fly, the voltage will clue you in to whether or not the pack is OK.. just a thought,
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Old 09-09-2015, 08:45 AM
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Last post for me before I abandon this thread..... please just post your results out of respect for the RCU community and fellow flyers. If what you say is true, I'll donate the first $25 contribution to your DX18 fund. I am sure others will as well. Also, the caps key is on the left side of the keyboard.
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Old 09-09-2015, 08:48 AM
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Good stuff ken,

my son does all that stuff also. As i said, you will never have a brown out...however, it is not because of anything you are doing as described in your thread.

My testing is 90% complete...just some simple micky mouse stuff to wrap it up. Thanks again for your input. Do you really do that every time? I would have quit a long time ago if i had to do all that. Flying is for fun...don't make it work...relax.
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Old 09-09-2015, 09:10 AM
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It is well known that airplanes using digital servos should not use 4.8 volt flight batteries. Many ESC's provide 5 volts to the receiver, which is marginal. You are hinting that part of the problem is low voltage to the receiver.

It is interesting that Spectrum/Horizon now sells a plug-in capacitor (SPM1600) that they call a "Voltage Protector" for $6. Plug it into you receiver and it is supposed to eliminate brown-outs by providing extra power as needed. (They say it is only for surface vehicles, because they have not tested it on aircraft. Sure. Lawyers again!)

My conclusion from this is to use at least 6 volts if using a separate flight battery and to use the voltage protector in all systems running off an ESC. But that has not solved the problem. I am still losing airplanes.

Last edited by jrf; 09-09-2015 at 09:57 AM.
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Old 09-09-2015, 09:28 AM
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Me too ken,

i will give horizon hobby until the end of the week to wake up and realize i am trying to help them.

On monday i will go viral on u-tube...i know you will find a class action lawyer when you see the vidios.

That is the only option i have...they need to be held responsible for not hiring technical experts.

Most of all for lying about not having a problem.

This is my last thread...sorry for all your losses... Make a list you all deserve whats coming to you.... If you have not had a problem, my videos will show you why you have not...really simple.to understand...especially for ken...you are all great guys...keep it fun...take no crap.

God bless you all
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Old 09-09-2015, 09:50 AM
  #23  
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Subscribed because this is just too good!
Lost $40K in airplanes?......I think I woulda tried to figure this out by the first $10K......but with 125 airplanes.....whats $40,000??? chump change!
Good luck with your Million Dollar lawsuit....how could you lose with that "4.0GPA in Contract Law"? Of course that 4.0 GPA wasn't in math because one tenth of 40,000 is 4000.....not 400.....but who's counting.....

Anyway...this should certainly be entertaining.....please post your videos, I cant wait!

CB

Last edited by castlebravo; 09-09-2015 at 01:25 PM.
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Old 09-09-2015, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by TOPGUN WINNER View Post
I PURCHASED A 16 CHANNEL RECEIVER THAT DOES EVERYTHING THE DX-18 DOES EXCEPT BROWN OUT... I CAN USE ALMOST ANY NEW RECEIVER MADE.
IT COST $187.00. WE HAVE HAD FOUR PEOPLE FLYING THEM IN OUR CLUB FOR OVER A YEAR. THEY CAN NOT BROWN OUT. PRETTY COOL.
I assume you mean you bought a 16 channel transmitter? What brand is it?
Jack
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Old 09-09-2015, 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by TOPGUN WINNER View Post
I will tell you that i have an idea on how to keep using your spektrum system untill they replace it with one that works for the average pilot. I will make a video of the test on both aircraft...it looks like you can buy the components required for around $100 per each aircraft.
Mind sharing what the components are and how to use them?
Jack
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