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RC Transmitter RF Output Power at 2.4GHz - How to Upgrade ?

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RC Transmitter RF Output Power at 2.4GHz - How to Upgrade ?

Old 07-14-2022, 06:43 AM
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NikolayTT
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Default RC Transmitter RF Output Power at 2.4GHz - How to Upgrade ?

Dear Sirs,
In EU we had 10mW max transmit power at 2.4 GHz and all Transmitters coming from USA, where the power was about 100mW, had to be severely limited in power. Recently (2022) is clearly stated in Finland that 125mW (21dBm) is fully legal. What is the case in fact now at lest with the Radios which you are purchasing or knowing well ? And indeed, What are the best ways to 'Upgrade' the Output power of the older radios; I have Graupner and Tactic, both made between 2014-2016 and they deliver barely 10 mW as measured by 'ImmersionRC'.
Regards,
Nick
Old 07-14-2022, 11:02 AM
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mongo
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best way to accomplish what you ask, is to replace the rf deck with one of the new version rf decks that has the higher power level.
probably not a practical idea, for many reason, mostly related to manufacturer lack of interest in selling the decks separately.

easiest way is to buy new higher rated TX units.
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jescardin (07-14-2022)
Old 07-17-2022, 03:48 AM
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I just went this way, It has a real quality feel to it.

Old 07-19-2022, 12:52 AM
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Thank you for the suggestion but it is a way too hard to implement as you also mention. Lets look for some 'orthogonal' solutions based on let say 'home-oriented' mass market solutions which people use for expanding the Range of their WiFi Hub; for example the Garden-type of WiFi has output power sometimes 3x to 5x the RC Transmitter power...indeed, not good idea flying near those gardens...
Old 07-19-2022, 01:23 AM
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Thanks and Yes, I like the approach but new Transmitter of good quality is not less than 400 USD and priced mostly due to all kind of 'smart' features' which have no influence on the range. Do you find in the technical data of your radio what is the Transmitter RF Output power in dBm or mW ?
Old 07-20-2022, 09:02 PM
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Zeeb
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European tx's are severely restricted on power output VS USA units by regulation. There is nothing you can do to increase the power output of the tx's.
Old 07-21-2022, 07:22 PM
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Truckracer
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Many commercial license free 2.4GHz microwave systems adjust their output power simply by entering the correct country code. Do any RC transmitters also offer this feature?
Old 07-28-2022, 09:14 PM
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NikolayTT
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Thank for the very good hint ! I have noticed this feature for some of the Grapuner-made Transmitters, in which if you enter the Country of use for example France, the power is limited to below 10mW.
Old 08-01-2022, 04:46 AM
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France did away with their 10mW restriction ages ago. They now follow the rest of EU.
Andy
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jescardin (08-01-2022)
Old 08-01-2022, 10:23 AM
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Zeeb
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Originally Posted by AndyKunz
France did away with their 10mW restriction ages ago. They now follow the rest of EU.
Andy
The OP is not in France......
Old 08-01-2022, 02:19 PM
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He stated incorrect information about France. I was not replying to the OP. I was correcting the misinformation.

You really ought to read the entire posts.

Andy
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jescardin (08-01-2022)
Old 08-01-2022, 03:16 PM
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Zeeb
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Originally Posted by AndyKunz
He stated incorrect information about France. I was not replying to the OP. I was correcting the misinformation.

You really ought to read the entire posts.

Andy
The OP is in Finland, why would he care what the regs in France are? Maybe you should read the posts more carefully including, in this case, what country he is in?????
Old 08-01-2022, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Zeeb
The OP is in Finland, why would he care what the regs in France are? Maybe you should read the posts more carefully including, in this case, what country he is in?????
The OP's location is immaterial.

The response to him is incorrect:
Originally Posted by NikolayTT
... in which if you enter the Country of use for example France, the power is limited to below 10mW.
The power in France is NOT limited to 10mW. They got in line with the rest of the EU a long, long time ago.

OK, so now you've been spoon fed. Is pablum required to help you understand?

Andy
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jescardin (08-01-2022)
Old 08-03-2022, 05:03 AM
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Not me you've got to convince, it's all these European guys posting on USA support forums about why they cannot get their Horizon equipment to function correctly.

As for the rest of it; I'm a PB guy now, I do not care what you do.....
Old 08-03-2022, 07:54 AM
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Hi Guys,

First I would like to thank for several useful comments and hints, and also it seems I have to clarify in a bit different way the OP, which might help to find way for the discussion to rich some more practical outcomes:

- It was some 4-5 years when purchased Graupner MC-16 HoTT for use in Finland. In its manual, pages 46 and 272, it was clearly written to pay attention to the difference between settings for the Transmitter for EU and for France, but not actual numbers for RF output power were not given. Following the good hint of Tracracer (21-7-2002) I revisited the manual pages, hoping to get some few more mW... because since 2021 in Finland the limits of output RF power of below 10 mW were lifted, and now (2022) are 125mW. And as pointed by Zeeb, many of us in EU have faced and still facing problems with those "10mW" limit while the Computers in the Transmitters have been very good almost all the recent at least 10 years.

- For my very low cost Tactic TTX610 (65 USD), which had output power just 7 mW, I just opened the box, and fed the RF-signal to additional 20dB broadband RF-amplifier prior feeding it to the antenna. Got some 19dBm power (79mW) for about 18 USD for components. Indeed, that approach is way too risky for the advanced-and-expensive Grapuner MC-16 (700 USD).

- Changing the RF-module as mentioned by mongo (14-7-2022) is something pretty useful. I might try by contacting the Graupner support, but it might prove the total cost, including shipment, is near or even higher than purchasing new transmitter.

- My hope is that some of you would know if the RC-Systems developers were able to develop and provide some kind of simple Range-Extender, to extend the life-span/use of the restricted below 10mW transmitters. Indeed the best would be some kind of re-translator, or call it 'repeater', as those are popular for the terrestrial TV, indeed without too narrow focused antennas.

- And especially on the attention of Andy Kunz, who is in the development works of such Radios, the question could be: - What Spektrum tells to its customers to do about older radios who are restricted below 10mW ? For example I have Spektrum DXe purchased 2-3 years ago and it RF-power is about 8.3 mW... What I should do to get it at least to 50mW, or better near to 100mW, so I can use it for flying beyond the current range of only 50-100 meters ?

Best Regards,
Nick



Old 08-03-2022, 08:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Zeeb
Not me you've got to convince, it's all these European guys posting on USA support forums about why they cannot get their Horizon equipment to function correctly
This is RC UNIVERSE, not RC USA. Europeans are welcome here. Shoot, Europeans are welcome in the USA too.

As for the rest of it; I'm a PB guy now, I do not care what you do.....
Why then are you constantly inserting yourself in (other) threads that are Spektrum-oriented?

Originally Posted by NikolayTT
- And especially on the attention of Andy Kunz, who is in the development works of such Radios, the question could be: - What Spektrum tells to its customers to do about older radios who are restricted below 10mW ? For example I have Spektrum DXe purchased 2-3 years ago and it RF-power is about 8.3 mW... What I should do to get it at least to 50mW, or better near to 100mW, so I can use it for flying beyond the current range of only 50-100 meters ?
Your DXe might be out of spec, or it may be getting measured incorrectly (wrong equipment). Because DSM only uses 10% of the bandwidth or less, many meters will show that it operating at much lower power than it is.

I suggest you send it in and allow the technicians in Germany to measure on the appropriate equipment and repair/replace as necessary. We never made a 10mW DXe as far as I can see. When the French rules changed, we automatically converted all radios in France mode to Europe mode with the next Airware update. If you have an old DX radio in France mode, installing the latest update will change it to Europe mode automatically.

Andy
Old 08-05-2022, 07:31 AM
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NikolayTT
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Hi Guys,

Here are couple a bit more difficult and maybe quite useful questions, which maybe(?) are one more reason for some Strange Crashes in the Airfields even when using high-quality radios :
- RC Radios of Graupner use FHSS coding, which is under the standard IEEE.802.11 (2.4GHz) and TX power is 100mW nowadays.
- HAM Radios (amateurs) and some WiFi Two-Way Repeaters, which usually use IEEE.802.11b, 802.11.g and 802.11n (all 2.4GHz) have their TX power (legally!) quite high, 1000mW or even much more.

Then the Questions are :
- If in the Airfield, or nearby, there is HAM radio (or just WiFi) Repeater activated, then as it is built to operate, it will take the Signal from any(!) Transmitter, RC-related or HAM-related, and if it is under the same standard, it will amplify it and 'blow it' back in the Air after some delay. This will also apply for the Signal coming from the Radio onboard of the RC airplane. But while theoretically looks maybe possible, is it taking practice ? If it works, then we do not need to throw away or upgrade the old RF power of the 10mW radios; just needs to get a repeater and keep it powered up near by; no wire connection needed to the RC Radios.

- But if this above takes place in practice, then would that Repeater works as RC-Field "Enhancer" or "Distractor", having in mind that prior repeating any signal coming to its antenna, the Repeater needs to check if the protocol is within the listed above IEEE-standards, or it is something else, e.g. there will be then a Delay(latency) which might be negligible(uSec) or not-so-negligible(mSec)? While for the HAM radio the delay in the voice communication is hardly important if it is even nx100mSec, that for RC (aerobatics or speed) might be crash-'opportunity'...even opportunity for lost communication due to some kind of 'echoing'-effect, by Repeater repeating after the RC-Radio, the same command (or part of it ?) after some few(?) mSec. Note, the simple-and-fast repeaters do not require password related to the origin of the signal...so "everything" might go trough ... So almost everybody on the RC-field get helped or distracted...by the Repeater doing his 'job'. And all this might be fully legal fight of standard RF-powers...

I guess the very professional IEEE standard developers have been thinking and working-out this since many years ago...

Hope to get some response, or at least hints where is better to post this Repeater-related issue.

Thanks in advance,
Nick



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