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New Dual Frequency System from Graupner

Old 03-09-2004, 05:53 PM
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mr_matt
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Default New Dual Frequency System from Graupner

Big rumour going around Florida Jets of a new Graupner dual band system, transmits simultaneously over 2 frequencies and and the RX picks the best.

Anyone know anything?
Old 03-09-2004, 07:18 PM
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Lynx
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Default RE: New Dual Frequency System form JR

If they sell it, it will cost an arm and a leg, you can depend on that much. Only Jet and SERIOUS high end enthusiasts will use it, and that means it will DEFINITLY cost an arm and a leg =) No use to the 'average modeller'
Old 03-09-2004, 07:53 PM
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mglavin
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Default RE: New Dual Frequency System form JR

I haven't heard of anything from Graupner, but do know of the unit mentioned below. This equipment is very popular with the jet crowd.

Click on the DPSI button, then click on the DPSI TWIN tab button on the left side toward the top for a system that offers redundant RX and more.

http://www.rc-electronic.com/html/en.../englisch.html
Old 03-09-2004, 08:14 PM
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sfaust
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Default RE: New Dual Frequency System form JR

Very interesting. I need to get one to play with. I've got a perfect test bed for it.

Can't wait! Something completely new and different to explore!
Old 03-10-2004, 04:32 AM
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Default RE: New Dual Frequency System form JR

SO now people will be hogging the two channels instead of one.
I am not sure I like that idea.
Old 03-10-2004, 07:24 AM
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Highflight
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Default RE: New Dual Frequency System form JR

You sure beat me to THAT comment and I can't believe it took several posts for this question to come up.
So my comment to you guys who like that idea is that if you ever show up at MY club's flying site with your "dual hog" radio, I will personally bring up the issue before the Board of Directors and have "dual hog" systems BANNED from our flying site.

What's next people, a system that can TX and RX on 3 channels and the hardware will pick the best of all THOSE channels?
Why not 4 channels?
Or 10 channels?
Or 25 channels?
Or all 50 channels?

Highflight

ORIGINAL: Geistware

SO now people will be hogging the two channels instead of one.
I am not sure I like that idea.
Old 03-10-2004, 08:07 AM
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mr_matt
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Default RE: New Dual Frequency System form JR

What if the secondary backup frequency was on 27 MHz? Does your field even have pins for 27 MHz?
Old 03-10-2004, 09:03 AM
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Highflight
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Default RE: New Dual Frequency System form JR

ORIGINAL: mr_matt

What if the secondary backup frequency was on 27 MHz? Does your field even have pins for 27 MHz?
Is that the proposal?
If so, then the idea is more stupid than I originally thought.
The 27mhz band is Car/Boat/Aircraft band and is the "toy" frequency that is used for the kind of R/C stuff you get at ToysRUs. (Did you notice the "Car/Boat" thing in there? We DO have children of club members bring out their R/C toys quite frequently, and no, there are no pins for them BECAUSE they are toys and don't affect our 72mhz band).

So what's the next idea? You can't use the 53mhz Ham band because that would prevent the use of a dual freq. system by non-Hams. Or would there be a rush of R/C people running out and getting their Ham license just for the purpose? And if that WERE the case, do you think that existing Hams are going to simply give up any of the very few channels they have now just so dual use jerks can hog THEIR channels?...(less than half as many as in the 72mhz band). That goes for the 50mhz Ham band as well.
That only leaves the 75mhz band but it's for Cars and Boats ONLY... oops.

OK, with the other R/C bands unusable, and without "hogging" other 72mhz R/C frequencies, what's left? Do you think that with the shortage of radio frequencies (and getting more "short" ), the FCC is going to carve out yet another valuable radio band just so (us pesky, irritating) R/C people can (unnecessarily) transmit on two (or more) frequencies at the same time?

This idea is not just impractical, it's downright ridiculous.

Highflight
Old 03-10-2004, 09:11 AM
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mr_matt
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Default RE: New Dual Frequency System form JR

Jeez have you had your coffee yet?

I asked for input on a rumour. It is not my idea. I looked into the same system for 50 MHz, but even then I need 2 flags and I assumes I would be dealing with guys like you and you "board" at the impound.

My new radio transmits on 75 channels all at once. And I do not need even ONE of your precious flags.
Old 03-10-2004, 09:15 AM
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Highflight
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Default RE: New Dual Frequency System form JR

Tell me about your new radio that transmits on every channel "all at once".
I'd like to hear that story.

And I'm glad to be of help because you're right, the issues I bring up are EXACTLY the issues that will kill this goofy "rumor".
It's best to kill these kinds of rumors early before they start getting ANY traction.

Highflight

ORIGINAL: mr_matt

Jeez have you had your coffee yet?

I asked for input on a rumour. It is not my idea. I looked into the same system for 50 MHz, but even then I need 2 flags and I assumes I would be dealing with guys like you and you "board" at the impound.

My new radio transmits on 75 channels all at once. And I do not need even ONE of your precious flags.
Old 03-10-2004, 09:43 AM
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mr_matt
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Default RE: New Dual Frequency System form JR

ORIGINAL: Highflight-RCU

Tell me about your new radio that transmits on every channel "all at once".
I'd like to hear that story.
Sure thing. It transmits on 75, 1 MHz wide channels in the Industrial, Scientific and Medical Band (ISM). It hops from one channel to another using a pseudo random code. Has 16 servo channels and telemetry.


Dave Brown sure liked it, as did the rest of the Executive Council and the AMA Frequency Committee. Check the minutes.

Did you like that story?
Old 03-10-2004, 10:23 AM
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Highflight
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Default RE: New Dual Frequency System form JR

That'd be a great story when you figure out how half a dozen of those same radios can control 6 different aircraft hopping around on the same frequency all at once without getting in each other's way. That would be a truly wonderful story.
By the way, if there are 6 different receivers listening on the same band, and they all hear the psuedo random code,... well, never mind.

Highflight

[/quote]

Sure thing. It transmits on 75, 1 MHz wide channels in the Industrial, Scientific and Medical Band (ISM). It hops from one channel to another using a pseudo random code. Has 16 servo channels and telemetry.


Dave Brown sure liked it, as did the rest of the Executive Council and the AMA Frequency Committee. Check the minutes.

Did you like that story?
[/quote]
Old 03-10-2004, 10:41 AM
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Default RE: New Dual Frequency System form JR

ORIGINAL: Highflight-RCU

That'd be a great story when you figure out how half a dozen of those same radios can control 6 different aircraft hopping around on the same frequency all at once without getting in each other's way. That would be a truly wonderful story.
By the way, if there are 6 different receivers listening on the same band, and they all hear the psuedo random code,... well, never mind.

Highflight
LOL! There is an old saying....

"When you find yourself in a hole, stop digging!!"

Ever used a cordless phone? Many of them use the same technology now. Works perfectly. THe radios do occasionally hop onto the same frequency, and then hop off in a tiny fraction of a second. The transmitters send vast amounts of redundant data to make sure that enough gets through with up to 16 radios on at once...its all based on statistics....every radio "seeds" a unique pseudo random code.
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Old 03-10-2004, 11:00 AM
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dirtybird
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Default RE: New Dual Frequency System form JR

I have been flying a dual channel hog that I built using radio shack micro switches and an old servo for many years. I control which receiver is active with one of the channels. I use it for teaching flying. Its handier than a trainer cord.
No one has ever given me a problem for using two channels.
Old 03-10-2004, 11:32 AM
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Highflight
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Default RE: New Dual Frequency System form JR

I thought you wanted to have a real discussion about the issue, but I realize now that you just wanted to play "one upmanship" word games. At that, you succeeded.
I also thought you wanted to discuss a "dual band" R/C system but I guess that's been resolved in your mind (with my help) in favor of a different system known as... Spread Spectrum and Broadband have already been discussed at length with regard to R/C use. While it is promising, there are still some issues that have to be addressed before we can safely, reliably and uniformly use that technology for R/C use. Never forget that safely, reliably and uniformly are not just goals, but requirements, for R/C use.

It's not hard at all to set up one radio for SS/BB use. It's another thing altogether to move an entire industry to that technology.
Cell phone use is propagating at a horrific rate and we (R/C industry) are not considered by the FCC to be a very important RF using group. To be safe, we would very likely want a small portion of a band given to our sole use but that is not at all likely in today's regulatory environment.
By the way, do you know ANYBODY with a cell phone who has never had a dropped call? You might say that dropped calls are a result of transmission considerations which we wouldn't have because of direct-direct TX and RX. But we still have thousands of transmission towers spreading millions of transmission all over the landscape that could easily affect us... care to enjoy a "dropped" call to your aircraft? (Instead of "I ain't got it", you'd get to shout: "Is anybody there.. hello... hellOOOO!")
Since the R/C hobby pretty much "owns" our portion of the 72mhz band (not really, but for practical purposes, we do), the FCC doesn't have much incentive to give us more RF bandwidth. The only hope for that "might" be that they woul like to take our portion of the 72mhz band away from us and give it to others and giving us another band might allow that, but that could backfire on us if we didn't pay attention.

Having said that, it would be absolutely great if SS/BB could be safely, reliably and uniformly used for R/C because then, "frequency flags" would be just as obsolete as escapements are now, and club managed flying sites would become obsolete as well because with no frequency interference concern, we could all go fly anywhere we can find an open field. In fact, R/C clubs themselves would just disappear in favor of unorganized, small groups of friends who would simply get together at any empty field. This would be inevitable because the main reason for joining an R/C club is for flying under safe frequency management.

Then the AMA would become bankrupt because since AMA membership is MANDATED by every R/C club in the country, but clubs would quickly lose relevance (and members) so, insurance or not, many people would rather not spend the $55 "for nothing" every year when they could buy a whole bunch of glow fuel instead. Then without the AMA to protect members interests, the government could finally outlaw all R/C flying activity as soon as the first tragic death occured involving a child.. or two.

It's kind of like looking at political issues where a bunch of people are ready to jump on a new piece of legislation but no one wants to follow (think) the legislation through to it's logical conclusion and impact... which leads to MORE legislation to fix the problems caused by the original legislation.
While my descriptive imagination might seem "out there", I have seen too many weird thing happen in my lifetime to make any assumptions. There's a reason why our parents usually cautioned us to "go slow".

Highflight

ORIGINAL: mr_matt

ORIGINAL: Highflight-RCU

That'd be a great story when you figure out how half a dozen of those same radios can control 6 different aircraft hopping around on the same frequency all at once without getting in each other's way. That would be a truly wonderful story.
By the way, if there are 6 different receivers listening on the same band, and they all hear the psuedo random code,... well, never mind.

Highflight
LOL! There is an old saying....

"When you find yourself in a hole, stop digging!!"

Ever used a cordless phone? Many of them use the same technology now. Works perfectly. THe radios do occasionally hop onto the same frequency, and then hop off in a tiny fraction of a second. The transmitters send vast amounts of redundant data to make sure that enough gets through with up to 16 radios on at once...its all based on statistics....every radio "seeds" a unique pseudo random code.
Old 03-10-2004, 11:37 AM
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Highflight
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Default RE: New Dual Frequency System form JR

What's being discussed is a widespread use of dual channel systems where it "could" become commonplace at many flying sites essentially nullifying the advantage we gained years ago when our available frequencies went from just 10 to 50.

Your "dual channel" rig is actually a good idea (no buddy cord!) as long as fellow club members are OK with it. Besides, training time is a small fraction of flying time on any given day compared to "normal" flying done by the rest of your club.

Highflight

ORIGINAL: dirtybird

I have been flying a dual channel hog that I built using radio shack micro switches and an old servo for many years. I control which receiver is active with one of the channels. I use it for teaching flying. Its handier than a trainer cord.
No one has ever given me a problem for using two channels.
Old 03-10-2004, 01:05 PM
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mr_matt
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Default RE: New Dual Frequency System form JR

The system using a single 27 MHz as a backup is not so bad. I mean think about it, your current backup is a trashbag and a good pair of walking shoes.

If you only get strong interference once out of 1000 flights, then you will not be using that 27 MHz channel very often. You will only switch over after the main channel is clobbered, so I would rather take my chances with the particular backup 27 MHz channel being open long enough for me to hurry up and land (maybe need the back up channel for 30-60 seconds tops). Better than the trashbag.

The best approach is 2 ham band channels


And I do not know where you got cell phones, you are right, SS has been DISCUSSED many times, I do not think many people have flown one and really learned anything about it. If they say it is EASY then they do not know what they are talking about.
Old 03-10-2004, 01:17 PM
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Highflight
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Default RE: New Dual Frequency System form JR

ORIGINAL: mr_matt

The best approach is 2 ham band channels
If you think I'VE got an attitude, wait until you ask the ARRL to give up ANY of what little they have right now.

Highflight
Old 03-10-2004, 01:23 PM
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Default RE: New Dual Frequency System form JR

No i mean just use 2 50 MHz flags. At most field I have been to the HAMS are cool and would appreciate the technology.
Old 03-10-2004, 05:45 PM
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dirtybird
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Default RE: New Dual Frequency System from Graupner

At all of the fields I have flown at only five aircraft are allowed flying at a time. That leaves 45 unused channels. It everyone used two channels there would still be 40 unused channels at any one time
Old 03-10-2004, 10:55 PM
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Highflight
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Default RE: New Dual Frequency System from Graupner

That would be great when EVERYBODY fly's a synth system and we could all keep jockying away from all the channels being used.
But until then, what are YOU going to do when one of the 10 channels being used UNNECESSARILY is YOURS?

I wish someone else could do at least SOME of the thinking in here.

Highflight


ORIGINAL: dirtybird

At all of the fields I have flown at only five aircraft are allowed flying at a time. That leaves 45 unused channels. It everyone used two channels there would still be 40 unused channels at any one time
Old 03-10-2004, 11:04 PM
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mr_matt
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Default RE: New Dual Frequency System from Graupner

ORIGINAL: Highflight-RCU

That would be great when EVERYBODY fly's a synth system and we could all keep jockying away from all the channels being used.
But until then, what are YOU going to do when one of the 10 channels being used UNNECESSARILY is YOURS?
No offense, but where is the "unecessary" coming from? I know dirtybirdy is using it for a simple cord replacement, to me I agree that is unecessary, but in the case of a interference backup, it could prevent a crash/property damage/injury/death....that seems necessary to me.

If the plane crashed into someone, how do you explain to the jury that we did not use a technology at our disposal?

"We did not use safety backups because they MIGHT have caused two people to wait 5 more minutes to fly instead of one"

And you don't need a synth, just extra modules and crystals. But if you had a synth/modules/crystals who is to complain? If I use 2 frequencies that are free when it is time for me to fly, what difference does it make anyway?
Old 03-10-2004, 11:09 PM
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Default RE: New Dual Frequency System form JR

ORIGINAL: Highflight-RCU

Having said that, it would be absolutely great if SS/BB could be safely, reliably and uniformly used for R/C because then, "frequency flags" would be just as obsolete as escapements are now, and club managed flying sites would become obsolete as well because with no frequency interference concern, we could all go fly anywhere we can find an open field. In fact, R/C clubs themselves would just disappear in favor of unorganized, small groups of friends who would simply get together at any empty field. This would be inevitable because the main reason for joining an R/C club is for flying under safe frequency management.

Then the AMA would become bankrupt because since AMA membership is MANDATED by every R/C club in the country, but clubs would quickly lose relevance (and members) so, insurance or not, many people would rather not spend the $55 "for nothing" every year when they could buy a whole bunch of glow fuel instead. Then without the AMA to protect members interests, the government could finally outlaw all R/C flying activity as soon as the first tragic death occured involving a child.. or two.

It's kind of like looking at political issues where a bunch of people are ready to jump on a new piece of legislation but no one wants to follow (think) the legislation through to it's logical conclusion and impact... which leads to MORE legislation to fix the problems caused by the original legislation.
While my descriptive imagination might seem "out there", I have seen too many weird thing happen in my lifetime to make any assumptions. There's a reason why our parents usually cautioned us to "go slow".


WOW I just read this one!!

So spread spectrum radios, which one AMA EC DVP called "the future of RC" are going to spell the end of the AMA???

I am going to leave you gentlemen to your sandbox now :-) [sm=bananahead.gif]

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