Did we do it wrong?
01-11-2006, 04:48 PM
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Did we do it wrong?
The discussion about cell phones de-programming computer radios finally hit at one of the clubs of which I am a member. We decided that an empirical test would be the quickest way rather than theory and conjecture determing what we should believe. So we took a Futaba 9ZAPS WCII with 25 models programmed in it and placed it on a table with six various cell phones placed one foot from the transmitter. We then turned on one of the programmed airplanes that had a rudder aileron mix and a couple of the servos that were not set in the default positions in the transmitter. Since it was a PCM receiver we also had the throttle set for low throttle if the signal was lost.
We then proceeded to call the different cell phones both one and two at a time while the controls were being moves and also while they were stationary. The radio performed as if there was nothing in the room nothing changed, glitched, or locked up.
We will try other brands and models before we draw any final conclusions. But based on this were we doing something wrong as far as trying to induce a problem?
We then proceeded to call the different cell phones both one and two at a time while the controls were being moves and also while they were stationary. The radio performed as if there was nothing in the room nothing changed, glitched, or locked up.
We will try other brands and models before we draw any final conclusions. But based on this were we doing something wrong as far as trying to induce a problem?
01-11-2006, 05:42 PM
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RE: Did we do it wrong?
I've never seen a setup change but I have seen a futaba T6XA go nuts while I was training a student. His phone rang and the plane imediately rolled wings up and dove, then righted its self. Every time the phone rang it went berzerk. When his phone took the msg all was ok. His phone was on his belt and the transmitter was within a foot or so. I've not seen any other transmitter do that or anything else next to a cell phone. This was about 2 years ago. The bad thing about using his T6XA was that it took another T6XA to use as a buddy box. The trims would change using my standard futaba buddy box. What a pain.
Edwin
Edwin
[8D]
01-11-2006, 06:24 PM
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RE: Did we do it wrong?
Well I have a ZAP, so I guess I'm OK! 
I don't think there is anything wrong with your first level testing. If there is a problem, my gut reaction is that it is not common and probably only effects certain combinations of equipment at very close distances, and possibly more common with equipment that is no longer operating within spec. I think Futaba's statements, while a bit extreme probably for liability reasons, is essentially correct. I.E. problems shouldn't occur, but have been reported, but not verified in the lab. BUT, since there really isn't a good reason to have cell phones at the flight line, keep them away... problem solved. I will however say I carry (but never use) my cell to the flight line as it is attached to my body and is just simpler to keep clipped as opposed to removing before I fly. I've never had a single issue nor do I personally know anyone who has had an issue... but then again, I have a ZAP.
Cheers
I don't think there is anything wrong with your first level testing. If there is a problem, my gut reaction is that it is not common and probably only effects certain combinations of equipment at very close distances, and possibly more common with equipment that is no longer operating within spec. I think Futaba's statements, while a bit extreme probably for liability reasons, is essentially correct. I.E. problems shouldn't occur, but have been reported, but not verified in the lab. BUT, since there really isn't a good reason to have cell phones at the flight line, keep them away... problem solved. I will however say I carry (but never use) my cell to the flight line as it is attached to my body and is just simpler to keep clipped as opposed to removing before I fly. I've never had a single issue nor do I personally know anyone who has had an issue... but then again, I have a ZAP.
Cheers
01-12-2006, 09:00 AM
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RE: Did we do it wrong?
From what I've read, its only a problem if your 9Z has the synthesized module. I know I've actually talked on my cell phone while flying my 9Z (CH 26); not a brilliant idea, I know, but it was a very important call that I couldn't miss and I didn't have time to land before they would have hung up.
01-12-2006, 11:45 AM
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RE: Did we do it wrong?
Well that is what the S stands for in the desigination. This transmitter has the synthesized module in it plus a Campac module. The module was transmitting on Ch 40 for the test.
ORIGINAL: Steve Campbell
From what I've read, its only a problem if your 9Z has the synthesized module. I know I've actually talked on my cell phone while flying my 9Z (CH 26); not a brilliant idea, I know, but it was a very important call that I couldn't miss and I didn't have time to land before they would have hung up.
From what I've read, its only a problem if your 9Z has the synthesized module. I know I've actually talked on my cell phone while flying my 9Z (CH 26); not a brilliant idea, I know, but it was a very important call that I couldn't miss and I didn't have time to land before they would have hung up.
01-12-2006, 11:47 AM
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RE: Did we do it wrong?
ORIGINAL: Edwin
I've never seen a setup change but I have seen a futaba T6XA go nuts while I was training a student. His phone rang and the plane imediately rolled wings up and dove, then righted its self. Every time the phone rang it went berzerk. When his phone took the msg all was ok. His phone was on his belt and the transmitter was within a foot or so. I've not seen any other transmitter do that or anything else next to a cell phone. This was about 2 years ago. The bad thing about using his T6XA was that it took another T6XA to use as a buddy box. The trims would change using my standard futaba buddy box. What a pain.
Edwin
I've never seen a setup change but I have seen a futaba T6XA go nuts while I was training a student. His phone rang and the plane imediately rolled wings up and dove, then righted its self. Every time the phone rang it went berzerk. When his phone took the msg all was ok. His phone was on his belt and the transmitter was within a foot or so. I've not seen any other transmitter do that or anything else next to a cell phone. This was about 2 years ago. The bad thing about using his T6XA was that it took another T6XA to use as a buddy box. The trims would change using my standard futaba buddy box. What a pain.
Edwin
01-12-2006, 11:49 AM
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RE: Did we do it wrong?
Do you have some "cheapos" in mind? If we can borrow some we will be more than happy to try the same thing again at the next monthly meeting.
Remember that we are talking about programming changes so it must have programming capability.
Remember that we are talking about programming changes so it must have programming capability.
ORIGINAL: ZAGNUT
maybe just maybe the 9Z's metal case is doing a good job of shielding it from the nasty cell phone interference. why not try the test with a cheapo plastic radio?
dave
maybe just maybe the 9Z's metal case is doing a good job of shielding it from the nasty cell phone interference. why not try the test with a cheapo plastic radio?
dave
01-12-2006, 02:45 PM
#12
RE: Did we do it wrong?
ORIGINAL: Gremlin Castle
Do you have some "cheapos" in mind? If we can borrow some we will be more than happy to try the same thing again at the next monthly meeting.
Remember that we are talking about programming changes so it must have programming capability.
Do you have some "cheapos" in mind? If we can borrow some we will be more than happy to try the same thing again at the next monthly meeting.
Remember that we are talking about programming changes so it must have programming capability.
yes, it should be a programmable radio like a 9C.
just about any unshielded electronic device will go bananas when very close to ringing cell phone...but actually changing/erasing programming is the real question. might have something to do with how the radio stores its plane setups, like volatile versus non volatile memory...maybe test a plastic JR alongside the 9C??
dave
01-15-2006, 04:30 PM
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RE: Did we do it wrong?
As soon as we can get a couple of transmitters volunteered for the testing more findings or lack of will be posted.
ORIGINAL: ZAGNUT
yes, it should be a programmable radio like a 9C.
just about any unshielded electronic device will go bananas when very close to ringing cell phone...but actually changing/erasing programming is the real question. might have something to do with how the radio stores its plane setups, like volatile versus non volatile memory...maybe test a plastic JR alongside the 9C??
dave
ORIGINAL: Gremlin Castle
Do you have some "cheapos" in mind? If we can borrow some we will be more than happy to try the same thing again at the next monthly meeting.
Remember that we are talking about programming changes so it must have programming capability.
Do you have some "cheapos" in mind? If we can borrow some we will be more than happy to try the same thing again at the next monthly meeting.
Remember that we are talking about programming changes so it must have programming capability.
yes, it should be a programmable radio like a 9C.
just about any unshielded electronic device will go bananas when very close to ringing cell phone...but actually changing/erasing programming is the real question. might have something to do with how the radio stores its plane setups, like volatile versus non volatile memory...maybe test a plastic JR alongside the 9C??
dave
01-15-2006, 07:48 PM
#14
RE: Did we do it wrong?
If the RC gear AND the cell phone are BOTH Japanese designed and produced Chips there will be no problems.
If 1 is NOT Japanese, ANYTHING can happen
The Japanese Chip manufacturers are very good. [sm=thumbup.gif][sm=thumbup.gif][sm=thumbup.gif][sm=thumbup.gif]
If 1 is NOT Japanese, ANYTHING can happen
The Japanese Chip manufacturers are very good. [sm=thumbup.gif][sm=thumbup.gif][sm=thumbup.gif][sm=thumbup.gif]
01-15-2006, 08:15 PM
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RE: Did we do it wrong?
ORIGINAL: cyclops2
If the RC gear AND the cell phone are BOTH Japanese designed and produced Chips there will be no problems.
If 1 is NOT Japanese, ANYTHING can happen
The Japanese Chip manufacturers are very good. [sm=thumbup.gif][sm=thumbup.gif][sm=thumbup.gif][sm=thumbup.gif]
If the RC gear AND the cell phone are BOTH Japanese designed and produced Chips there will be no problems.
If 1 is NOT Japanese, ANYTHING can happen
The Japanese Chip manufacturers are very good. [sm=thumbup.gif][sm=thumbup.gif][sm=thumbup.gif][sm=thumbup.gif]
My cell phone has rung at the field many times while I've been flying with no effect on the plane.
John
01-16-2006, 02:17 AM
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RE: Did we do it wrong?
Hi,
Interesting information. Further to the tests carried out with the various phones has anyone experienced the feedback on a car radio when a mobile phone commences to check for a tower. You will hear an audible chirping comming out of the speakers. This is apparently caused by the phone sending out a pulse of electromagnetic energy. If a car radio aerial can pick up this transmission and convert it to an audible noise through the speakers, it is highly likely that our rc transmitters may be affected. Also try holding your mobile phone up agianst your computer monitor when receiving a call. See what happens. We have seen some strange 'glitches' and behaviours at my club including total loss of radio control.
This is why we request that mobile phones must not be brought into the pilot compound. It is seen as a preventative measure until some further research or confirmation comes to light. Anything that is designed to protect ourselves and our aircraft can't be a bad thing.
Regards
Flapper.
Interesting information. Further to the tests carried out with the various phones has anyone experienced the feedback on a car radio when a mobile phone commences to check for a tower. You will hear an audible chirping comming out of the speakers. This is apparently caused by the phone sending out a pulse of electromagnetic energy. If a car radio aerial can pick up this transmission and convert it to an audible noise through the speakers, it is highly likely that our rc transmitters may be affected. Also try holding your mobile phone up agianst your computer monitor when receiving a call. See what happens. We have seen some strange 'glitches' and behaviours at my club including total loss of radio control.
This is why we request that mobile phones must not be brought into the pilot compound. It is seen as a preventative measure until some further research or confirmation comes to light. Anything that is designed to protect ourselves and our aircraft can't be a bad thing.
Regards
Flapper.
01-16-2006, 11:46 AM
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RE: Did we do it wrong?
The only thing that can be tried here is U.S. frequencies on both radios and cell phones. We did try turning one cell phone of and back on to see if the locator signal had any effect. On one transmitter and with one phone nothing happened.
Again what the original concern was is causing programming changes which would render the aircraft uncontrollable after the cell phone event.
At this point the ridiculous and the sublime seem to have a foot hold. The Futaba site has a one thousand ft separation recommended between cell phones and transmitters.
Dumb Thumbs, poor installations, and all types of operational failures can explain 99.9% of model crashes. We will try to see if cell phone emissions contribute to any part of the remaining .01%.
Again what the original concern was is causing programming changes which would render the aircraft uncontrollable after the cell phone event.
At this point the ridiculous and the sublime seem to have a foot hold. The Futaba site has a one thousand ft separation recommended between cell phones and transmitters.
Dumb Thumbs, poor installations, and all types of operational failures can explain 99.9% of model crashes. We will try to see if cell phone emissions contribute to any part of the remaining .01%.
ORIGINAL: flapper
Hi,
Interesting information. Further to the tests carried out with the various phones has anyone experienced the feedback on a car radio when a mobile phone commences to check for a tower. You will hear an audible chirping comming out of the speakers. This is apparently caused by the phone sending out a pulse of electromagnetic energy. If a car radio aerial can pick up this transmission and convert it to an audible noise through the speakers, it is highly likely that our rc transmitters may be affected. Also try holding your mobile phone up agianst your computer monitor when receiving a call. See what happens. We have seen some strange 'glitches' and behaviours at my club including total loss of radio control.
This is why we request that mobile phones must not be brought into the pilot compound. It is seen as a preventative measure until some further research or confirmation comes to light. Anything that is designed to protect ourselves and our aircraft can't be a bad thing.
Regards
Flapper.
Hi,
Interesting information. Further to the tests carried out with the various phones has anyone experienced the feedback on a car radio when a mobile phone commences to check for a tower. You will hear an audible chirping comming out of the speakers. This is apparently caused by the phone sending out a pulse of electromagnetic energy. If a car radio aerial can pick up this transmission and convert it to an audible noise through the speakers, it is highly likely that our rc transmitters may be affected. Also try holding your mobile phone up agianst your computer monitor when receiving a call. See what happens. We have seen some strange 'glitches' and behaviours at my club including total loss of radio control.
This is why we request that mobile phones must not be brought into the pilot compound. It is seen as a preventative measure until some further research or confirmation comes to light. Anything that is designed to protect ourselves and our aircraft can't be a bad thing.
Regards
Flapper.
01-16-2006, 07:03 PM
#18
RE: Did we do it wrong?
Interesting thread Gremlin. Just this past Saturday I was flying my Giant Aeromaster when two different calls came in to my cell phone (Nokia). I didn't answer. I do good just to walk and chew gum much less talk on the phone while I'm flying.
Since I use a neck strap I can easily measure the distance (2 inches) from my cell phone, which was in my shirt pocket, to my Futaba plastic 8UAF transmitter on channel 06. This transmitter uses a non-synthesized module. There was no reprogramming of my transmitter during that flight as the plane did not glitch or experience any other anomalies.
I've had my cell phone ring several times while I was flying and have never worried about it.
Gremlin, you are welcome to use my 2 Futaba plastic programmable transmitters for your next test.
Ken
Since I use a neck strap I can easily measure the distance (2 inches) from my cell phone, which was in my shirt pocket, to my Futaba plastic 8UAF transmitter on channel 06. This transmitter uses a non-synthesized module. There was no reprogramming of my transmitter during that flight as the plane did not glitch or experience any other anomalies.
I've had my cell phone ring several times while I was flying and have never worried about it.
Gremlin, you are welcome to use my 2 Futaba plastic programmable transmitters for your next test.
Ken
01-16-2006, 08:49 PM
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RE: Did we do it wrong?
Thanks for the offer. I will try to round up a group with cell phones and do the same type of round robin and double calling as before. Maybe we can get some others to add some different brands and models of transmitters to this at the same time so we can test several in place and the same way.
ORIGINAL: Big_Bird
Interesting thread Gremlin. Just this past Saturday I was flying my Giant Aeromaster when two different calls came in to my cell phone (Nokia). I didn't answer. I do good just to walk and chew gum much less talk on the phone while I'm flying.
Since I use a neck strap I can easily measure the distance (2 inches) from my cell phone, which was in my shirt pocket, to my Futaba plastic 8UAF transmitter on channel 06. This transmitter uses a non-synthesized module. There was no reprogramming of my transmitter during that flight as the plane did not glitch or experience any other anomalies.
I've had my cell phone ring several times while I was flying and have never worried about it.
Gremlin, you are welcome to use my 2 Futaba plastic programmable transmitters for your next test.
Ken
Interesting thread Gremlin. Just this past Saturday I was flying my Giant Aeromaster when two different calls came in to my cell phone (Nokia). I didn't answer. I do good just to walk and chew gum much less talk on the phone while I'm flying.
Since I use a neck strap I can easily measure the distance (2 inches) from my cell phone, which was in my shirt pocket, to my Futaba plastic 8UAF transmitter on channel 06. This transmitter uses a non-synthesized module. There was no reprogramming of my transmitter during that flight as the plane did not glitch or experience any other anomalies.
I've had my cell phone ring several times while I was flying and have never worried about it.
Gremlin, you are welcome to use my 2 Futaba plastic programmable transmitters for your next test.
Ken
01-16-2006, 08:50 PM
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RE: Did we do it wrong?
Thanks for the offer. I will try to round up a group with cell phones and do the same type of round robin and double calling as before. Maybe we can get some others to add some different brands and models of transmitters to this at the same time so we can test several in place and the same way.
ORIGINAL: Big_Bird
Interesting thread Gremlin. Just this past Saturday I was flying my Giant Aeromaster when two different calls came in to my cell phone (Nokia). I didn't answer. I do good just to walk and chew gum much less talk on the phone while I'm flying.
Since I use a neck strap I can easily measure the distance (2 inches) from my cell phone, which was in my shirt pocket, to my Futaba plastic 8UAF transmitter on channel 06. This transmitter uses a non-synthesized module. There was no reprogramming of my transmitter during that flight as the plane did not glitch or experience any other anomalies.
I've had my cell phone ring several times while I was flying and have never worried about it.
Gremlin, you are welcome to use my 2 Futaba plastic programmable transmitters for your next test.
Ken
Interesting thread Gremlin. Just this past Saturday I was flying my Giant Aeromaster when two different calls came in to my cell phone (Nokia). I didn't answer. I do good just to walk and chew gum much less talk on the phone while I'm flying.
Since I use a neck strap I can easily measure the distance (2 inches) from my cell phone, which was in my shirt pocket, to my Futaba plastic 8UAF transmitter on channel 06. This transmitter uses a non-synthesized module. There was no reprogramming of my transmitter during that flight as the plane did not glitch or experience any other anomalies.
I've had my cell phone ring several times while I was flying and have never worried about it.
Gremlin, you are welcome to use my 2 Futaba plastic programmable transmitters for your next test.
Ken
01-17-2006, 03:25 PM
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RE: Did we do it wrong?
There are two different issues with cell phones and RC Transmitters.
1- Memory corruption. This was reported on Futaba 9C and 8U systems. Leave a cellphone within 6 inches of the TX and some memory parameters can change. Like servo reversal, + changing to - in mixes etc.
2- RF Interference. This was reportes on 9Z and Multiplex systems with synth modules. Interference was much stronger in the UK/EU because of the freq/type system in use. In the US there are two cell systems. CDMA (Sprint) and TDMA. The CDMA phones have to be within 2 inches of the RF module to interfere, the others scramble the signal at up to 18 inches. In all cases the interference was only during the seconds before the phones would ring. At this point the phone and cell tower negotiate power output and signal.
Fritz
1- Memory corruption. This was reported on Futaba 9C and 8U systems. Leave a cellphone within 6 inches of the TX and some memory parameters can change. Like servo reversal, + changing to - in mixes etc.
2- RF Interference. This was reportes on 9Z and Multiplex systems with synth modules. Interference was much stronger in the UK/EU because of the freq/type system in use. In the US there are two cell systems. CDMA (Sprint) and TDMA. The CDMA phones have to be within 2 inches of the RF module to interfere, the others scramble the signal at up to 18 inches. In all cases the interference was only during the seconds before the phones would ring. At this point the phone and cell tower negotiate power output and signal.
Fritz
01-17-2006, 09:27 PM
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RE: Did we do it wrong?
I'm afraid that what you thought is not very correct, as Japanese always leave the products with the best quality for themselves,and sell the products with poor quality abroad. It really is, I thought everyone know it.
02-16-2006, 11:05 PM
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RE: Did we do it wrong?
There is a post on the 14 MZ receiver thread concerning 9Z transmitters with synthysizer modules going into pcm lock because of a cell phone cause. RE: Futaba R5014 Receiver Owners - Happy? - 2/17/2006 2:44:17 AM
It is in direct conflict to what we have found. So at this point I would say disregard both posts and if you have this particular combination try it on yours to confirm one way or the other.
It is in direct conflict to what we have found. So at this point I would say disregard both posts and if you have this particular combination try it on yours to confirm one way or the other.
ORIGINAL: Gremlin Castle
The discussion about cell phones de-programming computer radios finally hit at one of the clubs of which I am a member. We decided that an empirical test would be the quickest way rather than theory and conjecture determing what we should believe. So we took a Futaba 9ZAPS WCII with 25 models programmed in it and placed it on a table with six various cell phones placed one foot from the transmitter. We then turned on one of the programmed airplanes that had a rudder aileron mix and a couple of the servos that were not set in the default positions in the transmitter. Since it was a PCM receiver we also had the throttle set for low throttle if the signal was lost.
We then proceeded to call the different cell phones both one and two at a time while the controls were being moves and also while they were stationary. The radio performed as if there was nothing in the room nothing changed, glitched, or locked up.
We will try other brands and models before we draw any final conclusions. But based on this were we doing something wrong as far as trying to induce a problem?
The discussion about cell phones de-programming computer radios finally hit at one of the clubs of which I am a member. We decided that an empirical test would be the quickest way rather than theory and conjecture determing what we should believe. So we took a Futaba 9ZAPS WCII with 25 models programmed in it and placed it on a table with six various cell phones placed one foot from the transmitter. We then turned on one of the programmed airplanes that had a rudder aileron mix and a couple of the servos that were not set in the default positions in the transmitter. Since it was a PCM receiver we also had the throttle set for low throttle if the signal was lost.
We then proceeded to call the different cell phones both one and two at a time while the controls were being moves and also while they were stationary. The radio performed as if there was nothing in the room nothing changed, glitched, or locked up.
We will try other brands and models before we draw any final conclusions. But based on this were we doing something wrong as far as trying to induce a problem?
