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Is 72 Mhz Dead???

Old 10-05-2007, 10:19 PM
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harphunt
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Default Is 72 Mhz Dead???

As a returning hobbiest, I'm confused about radio selection. If I knew nothing, I'd choose a RTF as I did years ago. Things are different and there seems to be much debate. The Dx7 has been out, but we're waiting for the 7c FASST to come out. I need to wait to see if there are as many questions about Futaba's offering as there have been about Spektrum. Does one even look at crystal radios anymore? I loved my 9c years ago, but don't dare buy one as it is a "crystal" radio and will be replaced even though Futaba states that it will be offered only with 2.4 modules in the future, not integrated. I can't believe that in light of JR's offering of a dedicated 2.4 system. I'm not stupid and understand the retail world of stepping and extinction. I think I should have come back two years earlier or later. I thought I had a question, but I guess it was just a rant. I have half a mind to post in the Futaba forum my dissappointment with the 7c vs. dx7, but do they care? I'm interested in your thoughts.

PEACE
Old 10-05-2007, 10:33 PM
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Campgems
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Default RE: Is 72 Mhz Dead???

Was it Mark Twan that said "The reports of my death have been greatly exagerated". Unless the FCC does something to nudge us off center, I expect another 10 years of 72mhz at least. What will happen as the manufacturs cut over fully to 2.4 is that there will be fewer and fewer 72mhz radios avaiable. Some of the slack will be taken up by guys that have gone to 2.4 will be selling off their 72 stuff. So, even if the manufacturs shut down the full 72 supply next year, it would take quite a while before you would be in trouble with your 72.

If you look at Futaba's top end transmitters and receivers, they are still 72mhz. As for your 9C, it is a perfect bridge transmitter as you can just replace the 72 RF mod with a 2.4 and you even have the choice of manufactures for them now.

If you liked the 9C, get another and use what receivers and such as you may still have.

Don
Old 10-06-2007, 02:48 AM
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Default RE: Is 72 Mhz Dead???

The arrival of 2.4GHz doesn't mean that 72MHz will suddenly stop working.

Conventional VHF FM/PPM/PCM gear has been serving modellers very well for decades now and I see no reason why this would change just because another option has become available.

You'll probably see stratification of the market into two camps - those who think 2.4GHz is a must-have and is the bee's knees -- and those who think there's nothing wrong with 72MHz.

The former camp will cite the freedom from frequency clashes, immunity to being shot-down, increased responsiveness of control, etc.

The latter camp will be quite happy to grab the relevant frequency pin before hey fly and aren't going to be so pretentious as to suggest that their flying is compromised by a difference of a few hundredths of a second in response time.

Me, I'm in the latter group but most important to me right now is the huge price difference between a *good* FM/PPM receiver on 72MHz and a full-range 8-channel or better 2.4GHz receiver.

The former can be had for under $30 with crystal, the latter are typically two and a half to three times that much.

I have lots of planes and don't want to be either swapping expensive receivers around all the time or forking out a small fortune.
Old 10-06-2007, 07:39 AM
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Default RE: Is 72 Mhz Dead???

Xjet has stated everything rather eloquently. I still continue to add 72mhz flight packs all the time and even an occassional new 72 mhz Tx.

Now consider this for those in the US. The changeover from 27mhz to the six original 72 channels occured long ago and guess what the band is still avialiable to us.

John
Old 10-06-2007, 07:54 AM
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Bob Pastorello
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Default RE: Is 72 Mhz Dead???

I agree that 72M has not suddenly "died", although it is in a serious life-support issue, and probably will lapse into coma shortly. The reason I say that is the "technical" advantages of using 2.4 Ghz. Completely digital processing and control, in both the TX and RX makes for a bright future of added capabilites that probably are on drawing boards and in engineers minds that would never have been cost-effective (or perhaps even DOABLE) with 72Mhz.

The real killer of 72Mhz, IMO, will be the growth of awareness that the frequency-selection problems that delay fliers today has vanished with 2.4 shared use. Add to that the airborne technical improvements and immunity to RF noise sources that would not only reduce range of a name-brand 72Mhz PCM, but possibly lose / mask RF reception while airborne resulting in crashes.

One example is the dreaded "metal to metal" contact anywhere on an aircraft is a definite PROBLEM on 72Mhz FM. That means one must use extra care, and sometimes spend a little more money on a setup to achieve that electrnoically-noiseless environment.

ON 2.4Ghz - forget about it and fly. All of these differences (I see them as advantages) have been well-documented on various threads, as have the teething problems of the various 2.4 technologies.

Personally, to the starter of the thread.... go 2.4. It is here to stay, and has enough technical advantages to warrant using it.

My opinion only, and worth only a little, only part of the time, to only a few.....
Old 10-06-2007, 08:11 AM
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rmh
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Default RE: Is 72 Mhz Dead???

Hint:
Look at that long thing on top of the 72 mhz tx--it looks like a buggy whip.
Evolution is so rapid in electronics, that it is hard for some to appreciate that the difference in 2.4 technology, is not simply" another frequency".
If however , that is how you see it ----
" giddy up Dobbin."
Old 10-06-2007, 08:24 AM
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Default RE: Is 72 Mhz Dead???

Ah, but put that 2.4 GHZ receiver is a carbon fiber fuse!
Old 10-06-2007, 09:26 AM
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Default RE: Is 72 Mhz Dead???


ORIGINAL: dick Hanson

Hint:
Look at that long thing on top of the 72 mhz tx--it looks like a buggy whip.
Evolution is so rapid in electronics, that it is hard for some to appreciate that the difference in 2.4 technology, is not simply" another frequency".
If however , that is how you see it ----
" giddy up Dobbin."
There is also a long ugly wire hanging out the bottom of your airplane. To me getting rid of that is worth it all. It was always snagging on something.
Old 10-06-2007, 10:26 AM
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Default RE: Is 72 Mhz Dead???

Not on my planes
I build all my planes with an antenna tube routed so the antenna is away from pushrods and linkages, solves that problem
Well there is about 4" hanging out the back of my 2M sailplane, I'll live with it
Pete
Old 10-06-2007, 10:34 AM
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JPMacG
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Default RE: Is 72 Mhz Dead???

I agree with XJET. I expect that 72 MHz will remain popular until the price of 2.4 GHz equipment, particularly receivers, goes below the price of 72 MHz equipment. Once the price differential goes away 72 MHz will gradually fade away, over a period of perhaps 20 years.
Old 10-06-2007, 10:52 AM
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Default RE: Is 72 Mhz Dead???

Hi Don,
I'm with you on this one.
Yes I'd love to not worry about a shootdown, but in 20 years of flying RC I've only had one close call where a fellow flier turned on to check his battery without getting the pin, luckily he turned it right off, but it was exciting for a moment Glitches? I can count the times that I've actually encountered glitching on 72Mhz in 20 years on one hand, gimee a break guys I'm not negative on SS, just trying to be objective, with some of the installations I see, SS will not make much of a difference in the crash rate, the inevitable call "I ain't got it" can have a double entendre
As to those high end Futabas, many don't realize that while they have a pluggable RF module, they are "native" 2.4Ghz radios when used with the TM-14 module, this is due to the fact that these radios have G3 2048 PCM which seems to be the format that Futaba is using for the FASST 2.4Ghz system. With all the other conversion modules, PPM is converted to PCM in the module, then transmitted as spread spectrum.
Regards,
Pete
Old 10-06-2007, 12:34 PM
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Default RE: Is 72 Mhz Dead???


ORIGINAL: JPMacG

I agree with XJET. I expect that 72 MHz will remain popular until the price of 2.4 GHz equipment, particularly receivers, goes below the price of 72 MHz equipment. Once the price differential goes away 72 MHz will gradually fade away, over a period of perhaps 20 years.

Yes indeed and these artifical price controls no doubt will be how the manufacturers will continue to impliment a gradual changeover over a long period of time. Yes SS has some advantages but the sky is not falling on 72 and likely won't for some time, that can only occur when economics dictate.

John
Old 10-06-2007, 01:15 PM
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rmh
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Default RE: Is 72 Mhz Dead???

I am surprised at the "price " comments.
I flew only JR stuff and the Spektrum rx are less $$$
as for 20 years - well I was going to say 20 --months
Old 10-06-2007, 05:50 PM
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harphunt
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Default RE: Is 72 Mhz Dead???

Price is a definite factor. $100 for a receiver is a lot for the breadwinner of four, but not if 72MHz becomes extinct. In looking at Spektrum/JR, they do seem more expensive than others, but that is another topic. Luckily I have until spring to get this figured out and maybe there will be some change in pricing. I was hoping to make some decision to save up for/dream about.

Thanks for all of your responses.
Old 10-07-2007, 12:02 AM
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Default RE: Is 72 Mhz Dead???

Until there is a solution to the 2.4GHz reception problem in a carbon fiber fuse and until they reduce the footprint of the 2.4GHz receiver down to the size of the smaller 72MHz receivers, I'll be sticking with 72Mz for my sailplanes. On the other hand, I'm a convert to Spektrum for pattern flying. My DX7 is a lot tighter than my 9303 on PCM. The way Spektrum handles frequency and the model matching features are nice but would not in themselves be enough for me to switch from 72MHz to 2.4GHz.

Allan
Old 10-07-2007, 08:46 AM
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Default RE: Is 72 Mhz Dead???

I'm sticking with 72Mhz for a long time still. Everyone at my field is still flying 72Mhz. We had one guy switch to 2.4Ghz, but he quickly switched back to 72Mhz after crashing his plane due to 2.4Ghz interference and rx lock-out. There are a lot of problems with the 2.4Ghz stuff. Just search the forums and see it all. The manufacturers themselves tell you that you might have problems with 2.4Ghz. You have the low voltage lock-out problem, you have rx binding problems, you do have interference problems despite what some say, you have "line of sight" problems, you have problems seeing through carbon fiber and metal, etc., etc.

All of these problems will need to be addressed and corrected before I even consider switching to 2.4Ghz. I can't believe all the people that are switching now. They are just ignoring these problems and putting their planes and fellow pilots/spectators at risk!

2.4Ghz is for cell phones, and doesn't even work very well with them.

Jim
Old 10-07-2007, 08:50 AM
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John Redman
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Default RE: Is 72 Mhz Dead???

I sincerely doubt 72 mHz is going anywhere. The FCC isn't going to take it away because we "use it less becasue we are on another frequency". I do believe in time all the manufacturers will produce is 2.4 systems. They are overall better for us in the long term in the form of interference rejection, etc. Do you guys remember when the manufacturers went away from AM radios and the 1991 specs came to life. It wasn't long before manufacturers dropped the AM side of things because as technology drove us, they found the FM side of things was better, even though it was more costly to produce.

Given time (don't have a guess here), I believe all you will see are offerings in 2.4 from all the radio manufacturers.
Old 10-07-2007, 08:53 AM
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Bob Pastorello
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Default RE: Is 72 Mhz Dead???

ORIGINAL: Hammbone

I'm sticking with 72Mhz for a long time still. Everyone at my field is still flying 72Mhz. We had one guy switch to 2.4Ghz, but he quickly switched back to 72Mhz after crashing his plane due to 2.4Ghz interference and rx lock-out. There are a lot of problems with the 2.4Ghz stuff. Just search the forums and see it all. The manufacturers themselves tell you that you might have problems with 2.4Ghz. You have the low voltage lock-out problem, you have rx binding problems, you do have interference problems despite what some say, you have "line of sight" problems, you have problems seeing through carbon fiber and metal, etc., etc.

All of these problems will need to be addressed and corrected before I even consider switching to 2.4Ghz. I can't believe all the people that are switching now. They are just ignoring these problems and putting their planes and fellow pilots/spectators at risk!

2.4Ghz is for cell phones, and doesn't even work very well with them.

Jim
I guess the eleven guys using "Spread Spectrum" (brands not identified) in various classes flying at the Tucson Shootout this year (still going on) are just really lucky dudes.

I'm not putting ANYONE at risk with my use of 2.4 anymore than you are with your 72Mhz. Jim, that is sure not a very good accusation to make on a forum, particularly since you don't know that I "are just ignoring these problems", since you also don't know that I am having problems or not.

Opinions are great, and this forum thrives on them, but it's best to have opinions based on personal experience and knowledge rather than vice versa.
Old 10-07-2007, 09:16 AM
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Default RE: Is 72 Mhz Dead???

and you've just voiced your opinion. Participating in our hobby is a risk, but I think that 2.4Ghz, with all the problems it is currently having is much more of a risk then 72Mhz.

What I said is beased on personal experience and knowledge. I don't have to own a 2.4Ghz system to have persoanl experience and knowledge about them. The problems are real. I've already shared my personal experience with you and the info about these problems is all over the forums. Do you think these guys on the forums are just making up the problems?

There's only three options:
1. You don't know about the problems, even though they are talked about all over the forums.
2. You think all these people are lieing.
3. You simply choose to ignore the problems.

Jim
Old 10-07-2007, 09:33 AM
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Default RE: Is 72 Mhz Dead???

Thanks, Jim, I appreciate you enlightening me.
Old 10-07-2007, 09:57 AM
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Default RE: Is 72 Mhz Dead???

In 10 years, I think I've had one glitch on the 72 mhz on channel 18 but I'm going over to 2.4 because:

A good buddy is on Channel 18 also and we could not fly together, now we can.

my CH 18 was turned into the imound still left on :>(

I can work on feld repairs and not tie up a channel.

We run a Sunday r/c airshow with our weekend air festival, 2.4 makes scheduling the r/c flyers for the airhsow so much easier.
cheers - ken k.
Old 10-07-2007, 10:20 AM
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Default RE: Is 72 Mhz Dead???


ORIGINAL: kenair

In 10 years, I think I've had one glitch on the 72 mhz on channel 18 but I'm going over to 2.4 because:

A good buddy is on Channel 18 also and we could not fly together, now we can.

my CH 18 was turned into the imound still left on :>(

I can work on feld repairs and not tie up a channel.

We run a Sunday r/c airshow with our weekend air festival, 2.4 makes scheduling the r/c flyers for the airhsow so much easier.
cheers - ken k.
Synthesized 72Mhz tx's and rx's solve all these same problems.

Jim
Old 10-07-2007, 10:54 AM
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Default RE: Is 72 Mhz Dead???

ORIGINAL: Hammbone

ORIGINAL: kenair

We run a Sunday r/c airshow with our weekend air festival, 2.4 makes scheduling the r/c flyers for the airhsow so much easier.
cheers - ken k.
Synthesized 72Mhz tx's and rx's solve all these same problems.

Jim
I'm sticking with 72 mhz for the forseeable future. I'm in a small club andwe rarely have two people on the same channel.

While synthesized RX/TX might eliminate 72 mhz frequency conflicts, the price of doing it is pretty high. Futaba R319DPS synthesized receivers cost $180 each.
Old 10-07-2007, 10:59 AM
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Default RE: Is 72 Mhz Dead???


ORIGINAL: aerobob

Thanks, Jim, I appreciate you enlightening me.
Thanks for clearing up the definition of enlightenment
Old 10-07-2007, 05:06 PM
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Default RE: Is 72 Mhz Dead???

Dick,

My mail in RCU says you read both of my PM's, but I haven't seen the replys. Do I have a mail problem?

Travis

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