RE: Your thoughts after reading JR 12X manual
 

banker,

the "AND" feature means that you that to have the mix come on or change values you have to have all the switches you select in the given position.

Example is gear switch in POS1 "AND" mix switch in Pos1, "AND" a stick position switch on the throttle stick in POS1

When all three of these switches are in POS1 then the mix will turn ON or go to POS1 or whatever you have it doing.

If you leave the "AND" in the Off then any of those three switches by themselves will activate the mix, or POS1 or what ever you have going on in that mix, condition or change.

This is a powerful tool for sure.

Hope this helps

Troy Newman
Team JR

RE: Your thoughts after reading JR 12X manual
 

The 12X appears to be a wonderful transmitter, but when it becomes available here in Europe the hardest competition for the JR 12X (35 and 40 MHz versions) will IMHO not be Futaba, but JR themselves!

Why? Graupner in collaboration with JR produces a 9303 "on steroids" that is called MX-24s. It can easily be mistaken for a 9303, but its Graupner developed software is VERY different from the 9303. From what I have read in the the 12X manual the MX-24s offers about the same functionality including 12ch APCM, logical switches, servo matching, switch assignability etcetera. You can check out the manual here: [link=http://www.graupner.de/fileadmin/downloadcenter/anleitungen/20080528104715_4730.77_mx-24s_manual_gb.pdf]MX-24s[/link].
IMHO the MX-24s software is more intuitive and easier to get to grips with.

The reason that the MX-24s will give the 12X stiff competition is in the pricing. If it is assumed that the relative price differences between JR transmitters is the same in Europe as in the US, the 12X will be almost 70% more expensive than the MX-24s.

http://airtoimedia.nl/web/upload/666...6/IMG_5434.jpg

RE: Your thoughts after reading JR 12X manual
 

First off, I'm a Futaba 12FG owner and flyer.

I was reading the 12X manual to see if it sucks as bad as the Futaba manual. It does not.

I'm impressed with how much more readable the JR 12X manual is than the Futaba 12FG
manual.

The 12X radio is no where near as programmable as the 12FG is, so the radio should be
easier to document. I was impressed that JR actually made the attempt to make the manual
clear and easy to read.

In contrast, the manual for my 12FG appears written by Futaba engineers for Futaba
engineers to read. It does not explain how to set up a program mix worth beans.

After reading about mixing in the JR 12X manual, I thought I could program a mix on it. Still
haven't figured out how to do it on my 12FG.

Chris Shaker

RE: Your thoughts after reading JR 12X manual
 

Futaba Manuals do realy suck but im not reallyimpressed with JR either...... there just at least usable :)

Futaba problems, dont read in the Futaba section here because anything that states a PROBLEM will be deleted. Might be ok to ask a quiestion like how to program a switch etc.

Ill go post one saying the Futaba manual is really hard to understand...... bet it disapears!

RE: Your thoughts after reading JR 12X manual
 

Troy,

Thanks for the info but I am still wondering if there is something about the 12x that makes it more susceptible to being damaged than the 10x. I know many owners of the 10X that use lipos and I do not know of any failures. Do you know of any such failures of either the 12X or 10X from lipo use?

BTW Guys I just found out our LHS is making a special deal on the 12X. If you buy the 12X and 12 channel receiver (at map 1499.99) he will sell you AR 9100s or the 12 channel receivers for 159.99 each. Also it looks like Spectrum has extended the receiver giveaway until the end of the month for the 12X. Contact Gene at Wings and Wheels http://www.wingsandwheelshobbies.com/ for the great deal.

RE: Your thoughts after reading JR 12X manual
 

JR doesn't approve of using Lipos in any of their radios. The voltage from a fully charged pack is too high for the system nd it can be damaged.

As stated I use the supplied 2200mah nimh pack in my 12X and have a 2500mah JR pack I stuck in a 10X battery case.

I don't argue with the folks that design the radios. They know more about them than I do. So I follow their guidelines. To my thinking is dumb to risk damaging an expensive TX or worse risking a model for a battery pack that has the same capacity as the one supplied and designed for the TX.

Yes the Lipo will not last any longer in run time than the Nimh. They are the same size battery.

The only advantage the Lipo has is self discharge when not in use. The Nimh can self discharge at a faster rate.

If you slow charge the nimh packs all the time are most of the time the self discharge rate is pretty low. If you use peak detect chargers then you might only get 70% charge in the first place and then it will discharge very quickly to an unsafe level. I'll restate what I posted in another forum about this.

I last charged my 12X on Thursday July 24th the night before the Finals at the Nationals. I flew 4 flights in the contest on the 25 of July. I have spent about 40mins to an hour messing with some programming to help guys figure out a programming question since and the system has been off for 18 days. Thats nearly 3 weeks after it was fully charged at the Hotel overnight. Then it was flown 4 times about 10mins each flight.

I just turned it on 12am AZ time on Tuesday the 12th of August and its reading 10.1V From the looks of the bar graph its about 50-60% I could probably get another 2-3 flights on it before it needs a charge. Low volt alarm goes off at 9V. I have flown the system to about 9.2V before. Not often but I did it once. I recommend anything below 9.6 to 9.5 gets a re-charge


So what is the problem with the stock battery pack? Or is that you think a 2100mah lipo will last more flights than a 2200mah nimh, it can't Capacity is capacity.

If the tank hold 5 gallons of water, you are not going to switch it out to Jack Daniels and make it a 6 gallon tank.

Its still only going to give a 5 gallon capacity. Same with batteries. It doesn't matter Lead Acid, Nicd, Nimh, Lipo, Alkaline, Salt water with a couple copper plates in it. The "battery" has a rated capacity and that is all its good for.

Lipos are good for high current draw situations like electric motors and such. You TX draws the same low power all the time...moving the stick doesn't make the power consumption go up or down. Its not like the servos that actually doing work. The TX does none.


Troy Newman
Team JR

RE: Your thoughts after reading JR 12X manual
 

Troy

Thanks for the battery lesson but unfortunately you didn't answer my question (is there something about the 12x that makes it more susceptible to being damaged than the 10x by the use of lipo batts). I know JR doesn't recommend lipos but manufactures typically do not recommend anything but their products;)...nothing new.

Anyway you say; "The only advantage the Lipo has is self discharge when not in use. The Nimh can self discharge at a faster rate"… but that is not the only advantage. Lipos can be charged in just 1 hour. Most of my radios have lipos in them...which include the 10x and Futaba 9Z w2 and I have let them set idle for months and routinely use then for a days flying when the opportunity arises but if they are low I can recharge in just 1 hour. Very desirable for me.


I really wasn't looking for factory admonishments or battery lessons but some real life first hand experiences.

I often make modifications that manufactures do not recommend... actually very few things that I have are not hopped up one way or another.

I would really like to know; is there anything in particular that makes 12x more susceptible to being damaged than the 10x by the use of lipo batts?

Has anybody had damage done to their 10x or 12x by lipo use?

RE: Your thoughts after reading JR 12X manual
 

So can a good fast charge NiCd . . . big deal . . .

- Tim

RE: Your thoughts after reading JR 12X manual
 

Sheesh....

Why don't you just drop $1500 for a 12X and give it a go????

Mine works fine with the supplied battery....:eek:

RE: Your thoughts after reading JR 12X manual
 

The battery in mine lasts for a full days of flying 6-10 flights and then lasts on my cycler for a few more hours. I fail to see a reason to change the battery to anything else. I don't fly Lipo's in any of my airplanes either, I just don't see the need to. The draw backs of Lipo's outweigh the charge time advantage. Using Lipo's in an airplane requires a regulator and that is just another point to fail. JMHO

Tim

RE: Your thoughts after reading JR 12X manual
 

I too was going to put a LiIon in my 12X, but after trying the stock battery, it's not bad. I didn't think it would hold a charge very long, but it seems to hold a charge for several days.
My concern wasn't flying time, but the self discharge rate.
I'm going to stick with the stock battery for now. I just hope it will remain this way. I thought NiMh wouldn't hold a charge, but this one does, so far.

Jim

RE: Your thoughts after reading JR 12X manual
 

"NiMH historically had a somewhat higher self-discharge rate (equivalent to internal leakage) than NiCd in the past. However, this is no longer the case. The self-discharge is 5-10% on the first day, and stabilizes around 0.5-1% per day at room temperature."

(Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel_metal_hydride)

Looks like your assumptions are very dated . . . I have stuff that only loses 25% or so in a month, which is consistent with the above info.

- Tim

RE: Your thoughts after reading JR 12X manual
 

I've been very impressed with the battery that came with the 12X. I typically charge when it gets down to 9.5v. But from a full charge to when it does finally reach 9.5v takes quite a bit of on time. I fly my electric helis as much as I can during the week, sometimes every morning doing six ten minute flights and I can go a whole week of that before charging. It's been nice.

JR has a tech bulliten on its web site (as well as the Spektrum site) and the primary reason they don't advocate LiPo use is that the higher voltage stresses some of the electronics and can lead to a eventual failure. Here is one of the bulletins:

RE: Your thoughts after reading JR 12X manual
 

Ok, you guys convinced me to use the stock battery in my 12x. Thanks

RE: Your thoughts after reading JR 12X manual
 

littlecrankshaf,

Sorry I must have gotten carried away with my response to you regarding the reasons why I don't use lipos in any of my TX's. I felt a little information would convince you, why you should not use them either. I felt I should qualify my answer and give some details. I didn't realize you were not interested in the details. Sometimes on RCU its tough for me to tell if the guys just wants to hear yes or no. I often will give more information than needed in order to answer the question or explain a reason for my decisions.

I have heard that I type to much....to that end:
You had a simple question and deserves a simple answer.

sorry about that long post previously...

Q: Is there something about the 12x that makes it more susceptible to being damaged by a lipo?

A: Yes there is, as a result lipos are not recommended JR.

I hope this information helps you make your decision.

Troy Newman
Team JR

RE: Your thoughts after reading JR 12X manual
 

Troy

Sorry about getting so defensive but your initial reply came across as a very condescending admonishment to an ignorant first grader.

Just for clarity sake…are you saying there is something that makes a 12x more susceptible to damage than the 10x by li-poly use?

If so, can you elaborate?

In case you missed it, I have now decided to do as recommended. The guys here in this forum presented enough info to sway me and I am now considering putting a stock battery back in my 10X as well, if I keep it. Some of that will depend on info you may have about the differences between the 12x and 10x…
.

Thanks again.

RE: Your thoughts after reading JR 12X manual
 

littlecrankshaf,

I used my 10X with a lipo battery for about two years. During that time I purchased a synthesized transmitter module that worked for a while, then suddenly it went south (on the ground luckily). Later I read the warnings that said "DON'T USE LIPO BATTERIES WITH JR TX's". In hind sight I realize that it's possible that the high voltage of the lipo battery could have caused the module failure (after all they say don’t use them). I was really lucky I didn't lose my plane!

I now have a JR issue NICAD in the transmitter and a new synthesized module that's working fine.

Keith B

RE: Your thoughts after reading JR 12X manual
 

Troy, no apology needed. You do a great service to those of us who want answers to our many questions. Faced with a choice and differing opinions I find one of the best ways to approach an issue is to ask yourself "What's the worst that can happen?" In this case the worst that can happen is the excess voltage of the lithium battery pack eventually causes the Tx to fail and you lose the plane. I doubt seriously that JR did any testing to see if the 12X would withstand the extra voltage of the lithium batteries. So, if you use them, you're in uncharted waters. Columbus had balls of steel and he found the world to be round. I don't have balls of steel or the money to replace a $5,000+ R/C plane if my 12X fails from excess voltage. So, what's to be gained by switching to lithium batteries? This isn't a capacity issue, it's not a burst output issue and it's not a weight consideration, it boils down to how often and how long it takes to charge the Tx vs. the possible risk of losing a plane. I for one will pass on the risk, use the supplied battery and charge the night before. Airwayman

RE: Your thoughts after reading JR 12X manual
 

Not in my book....:)

I'm one of the many who really appreciate your efforts not only in describing/explaining the hardware, but your willingness to try various configurations and setups for other users who are experiencing difficulties achieving the desired end result.

I've enjoyed reading your posts on here and FG.

Thanks for your efforts and please feel free to continue to "type too much".

RE: Your thoughts after reading JR 12X manual
 

Hi guys!

Sorry I found this thread after searching on Google for battery upgrades for a 12x, so I haven't read all the pages just the one Google linked to. I get the jist of it though.

Problem I'm having is that my 12x I fully charged it for 3 cycles per the instructions. Left on for 24+ hours each of the first 3 charges on the stock JR charger, then put it on my accucycle discharger. First cycle I got 1400mah out of pack, 2nd I got 1600mah out, 3rd I got about 1780mah out. After that I'm charging on my Hyperion duo charger with a rate of 1.5a main charge and a trickle of 125mah.

After a charge voltage on the TX will read 10.1-10.2v for about a few seconds then drop to about 9.8v for a few mins and within 3-4 flights I'm down near 9.6v which makes me nervous.

For my X9303 I used a lipo pack and had no problems with it. I also had made a 2000mah pack out of Eneloop NiMh cells as they are lower discharge rate cells and after a full charge on them the X9303 would read >11v for a few seconds prior to dropping to 10.8v and staying in the mid to low 10's for a day or two of flying 8-12 flights each(5-10 mins each flight).

I like the 12x radio, but am VERY disappointed in the battery to this point. Having spend $1800 on the TX/Rx combo and 2 extra Rx's I would think it should beat the battery times of my X9303 which I could fly for 2 days on the stock 1500mah NiMh pack as well. I follow the "break in" rules for the NiMh battery as I didn't want to use an "aftermarket" battery for this Tx as I didn't want JR to use any excuses IF there were to be an issue with the radio. I've never had a problem with JR radios, hence the big investment in this one, but Murphy and his damm law are bound to rear their head at some point and this is too $ of a Tx to play games with the warranty.

If the JR rep would please comment on me replacing the cells inside the case with eneloop cells if that would void the warranty I would appreciate it. What's another $30-40 to me now at this point for some piece of mind. I think one of the cells or more may be weak in my pack and I really can't afford the down time at the end of this flying season to send it in. Plus tbh I really haven't had overwhelming success with warranty issues in the past with "other" manufacturers as it seems to be more of an exercise of "let's see how we can get out of this claim" versus fixing an issue.

thx
John

RE: Your thoughts after reading JR 12X manual
 

I'm not having the greatest of luck with my 12X Tx battery either. What in the world is that black box with the green light all about? If I plug it in to charge I get the normal slow blinking green light. If I unplug it from the Tx, and then plug it back in, the black box goes to rapid flash and won't charge until I unplug the wall wart from the wall and start all over. Who thought this was a good idea?? Conversely, my 2.4 GhZ 9303 w/ the std. wall wart charger hums like a kitten. It pumps the Tx battery up to 11.2v and I can fly five plus 15 min. flights at 10.5 or greater volts showing. With a full charge (green light on steady) the 12X won't show 11 volts and rapidly depletes to the mid 10s. (I haven't used it enought to see how fast it actually depletes). Great radio, mediocre instruction books, battery sub par. BTW, everyone with a 12X know how to increase the throttle tension? I'm convinced the instruction book is wrong. Airwayman

RE: Your thoughts after reading JR 12X manual
 

John,

My experience with the 12X battery is similar to yours. I sent both the battery and the charger back to Horizon. They returned it with the comment there was nothing wrong with either item.

It seems that the battery only marginally has a 2000mAh capacity. It has to be discharged down to 0.9v per cell immediately after the charge cycle. The included charger has a rate of 250mA. It raises the battery temperature to more than 120 degrees F by the end of the charge cycle. I was able to get the rated capacity by putting it on a 200mA constant current charger for 24 hours. At 200mA the battery temperature remains reasonable.

My impression is that the 12X inherently consumes more current than the 9303, especially if the screen is back lit. While the present battery meets my needs, I would welcome a 2500mAh battery.

Concerning the throttle tension adjustment screw, it is hidden under the flap next to the module (on the MV or where the module would be on the 2.4) I understand the 10X had the same error in the instructions.

Allan

RE: Your thoughts after reading JR 12X manual
 

The 12X manual does leave something to be desired. It's not horrible, but they missed some obvious errors (like the tension adjustments).

As for the battery, I've continued to enjoy good performance from mine. After a charge session with the stock charger my battery is usually at 11.2 volts. It remains above 10 volts for quite a few flights- four to five. I don't charge until it's at 9.6v or less and have flown down to 9.4v. Overall, I do wish we had an approved lithium battery option. I do prefer the charge routine and power density of lithium. Horizon should give us this option.

nick

RE: Your thoughts after reading JR 12X manual
 

Nick, why are you waiting to charge? Still flying at 9.4v? Yeow, scares me. Anybody else doing this? Airwayman

RE: Your thoughts after reading JR 12X manual
 

you would think for the price we paid for the 12x they could have included a battery that is more than a $10 value????????????????

RE: Your thoughts after reading JR 12X manual
 

The battery is 9.6v at nominal voltage. Waiting to charge it until 9.4v simply assures that it is sufficiently discharged. The low batt alarm on the 12X does not sound until 9.0v so I still have a safety margin. I don't always fly down to 9.4v but I do sometimes.

Not having to deal with proper discharge concerns would certainly be an advantage with a Li pack.

RE: Your thoughts after reading JR 12X manual
 

I understand from reading the manual that separate channels can be mated for twin engine operation. What I can't understand is how to set up a throttle curve for one engine and a different throttle curve for the mated engine so that the engine rpms will be matched throughout the throttle range. Can anyone help me?

RE: Your thoughts after reading JR 12X manual
 

<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: medium; "><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; background-image: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; -webkit-background-clip: initial; -webkit-background-origin: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); font-family: Arial; font-size: 12px; background-position: initial initial; ">G'day ALL... I have a new 12X on 2.4 ghz. I'm trying to program it in a Comp-Arf Euro.  I have the wing type selected as Delta. The right ail is in ail channel, the left goes to elev. [At this point the manual says the plug the right control to aileron channel two and plug the the right control into elevator] I guess they mean the LEFT control. Okay, so that works fine. Now. I can adjust the travel of the control for either elev or ail but if I alter aileron travel, it also alters elevator travel. The Euro has about 15mm up and down for ail, but require as much as 45 mm up for elev. Does anyone on line know what the blazes I should be doing? Surely I can have 45 mm up on elev, but only 15mm up on left bank??? Please help. Ancient Cliff</div></span>

RE: Your thoughts after reading JR 12X manual
 

<span style="font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: medium; "><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; background-image: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-attachment: initial; -webkit-background-clip: initial; -webkit-background-origin: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); font-family: Arial; font-size: 12px; background-position: initial initial; ">G'day ALL... I have a new 12X on 2.4 ghz. I'm trying to program it in a Comp-Arf Euro.  I have the wing type selected as Delta. The right ail is in ail channel, the left goes to elev. [At this point the manual says the plug the right control to aileron channel two and plug the the right control into elevator] I guess they mean the LEFT control. Okay, so that works fine. Now. I can adjust the travel of the control for either elev or ail but if I alter aileron travel, it also alters elevator travel. The Euro has about 15mm up and down for ail, but require as much as 45 mm up for elev. Does anyone on line know what the blazes I should be doing? Surely I can have 45 mm up on elev, but only 15mm up on left bank??? Please help. Ancient Cliff</div></span>

RE: Your thoughts after reading JR 12X manual
 

I&rsquo;ve never had a delta wing but this should work. In one of the linear program mixes, mix AILE to AILE. Set both left and right mix to around -70% for POS0. Adjust your linkages to get the throw you need for pitch. Adjust the mix percentage for the roll.</p>

BTW, the MONITOR menu is handy for determining the receiver channel assignments. The upper left is channel 1. Below that is channel 2, etc. The upper right is a continuation of the left column (probably channel 7). The lower right is the last channel. If you have a 12XMV, the number channels shown will depend on the modulation.</p>

Allan

It took 10 hours for this to dawn on me but a simpler way is just go to menu 13 (D/R &amp; EXP) and dial down the aileron rate.</p>

RE: Your thoughts after reading JR 12X manual
 

Here's my thoughts on the 12X, which I own - and can compare to the Aurora 9 and an EVO 12 also. I find the 12X manual to be poorly written with photos of screen shots that are so faint as to be almost unreadable.When they can be read they rarely show what the text is describing, but the screen prior to any recommended changes. The Royal EVO is so-so but still far more readable and makes more sense than the JR, and the Aurora 9 manual is light years ahead of both; it even gives a "dictionary" of what their terms are and how they relate to the system. Can you imagine JR ever providing translation for what they call functions or surfaces? This is, to my thinking, the greatest issue with JR - what the hell are they talking about?

As far as programming goes, the JR (regardless of the claim that channels can be selected for switches or vice-versa) is not so flexible as they would have you believe - there are "rules" that are not mentioned in the manuals that really screw up logical thought and processes. It would be great if something came out with files for setups as are supplied by Hitec for their Aurora and the Multiplex EVO Tutorial that's available on line. It's pretty difficult and requires work arounds to get some functions connected to the proper switches/levers and this is a real programming problem. The MPX is far more flexible and once you forget "Asian" programming it's really simple and quite logical; It takes little time to set up a complex model to respond exactly as one would prefer. The Aurora 9 has a few bugs still which, hopefully, will be corrected soon and is almost "too" easy to program and retains less flexibility than I would prefer. It's almost like the dumb relative of the Royal EVO and is great for some setups but a little too quirky for others. I also hope that they come out with a 12-14 channel version to handle my large scale sailplanes. After the destruction of a very pricy TD ship to my EVO I no longer fly with it, even though it's been repaired. A new Tx costs a whole lot less than the TD glider so it's not worth it to take a chance repeating that event. I now fly only on 2.4 with my Aurora and JR12X. I just wish they had software similar to the EVO. From a Human Factors standpoint JR needs to get rid of those dopey round knobs that few people like and replace them with switches or something more functional on the faceplate. That aside, the JR 12X feels "right" as do the Aurora 9 and the EVO is still my favorite as far as balance and feel. I was about to purchase one of the new Airtronics transmitters but couldn't get past that "ridge" that presses into the balls of my thumbs...perhaps only my problem, but it didn't feel good to me and that's a shame as it's probably a great Tx for sailplanes. It's been so long since I've flown Futaba (back in the AM days) that I can't comment at all on them. As usual, it's always different strokes for different folks. :)

My thoughts and opinions only -

bob

RE: Your thoughts after reading JR 12X manual
 

This is off the present discussion but pertains to the 12X. My oldest 12X is 2 1/2 yrs. old. Soon after I bought it I experienced what I thought was a radio software failure, as it wouldn't change out of the System to the Function menu. I sent it in, they said it was a battery failure (really?), installed a new battery and sent it back. It's worked flawlessly ever since. But now the battery is 2 1/2 yrs. old and I want to replace it. Several of my friends have 12Xes and two have also experienced a problem that turned out to be battery battery related. One was a blinking screen, the other went from 9.6 volts to battery alarm during a short flight. We are all leery of the JR OEM battery after these experiences. One fellow heard about Sin City Jets in Las Vegas offering Sanyo eneloop batteries. I Goggled on eneloop batteries and was amazed to see that they are NiMH batteries that hold 85% of their charge for one year. That's light years ahead of regular NiMH batteries and their relatively high self discharge rates. The eneloop cells are 2000 mAh. I heard they might make higher capacity ones down the road but I can fly six times and only put in 400 mAHs so 2000 mAh capacity was good enough for me. My friend sent his pack to Sin City and they installed the eneloops. I opted to have them send me the 8 cell pack, all I had to do was solder the two leads from the IC board to the end of the pack tabs. We've both had the eneloops for a month or so and everything seems to be just great. One word of caution, the heat sensor is no longer installed in either pack so I wouldn't use the JR supplied wall wart to charge with. I was never very comfortable with it anyway as it really heats up the battery pack before it shuts off. I use my Triton which enables me to read the amount of charge which I feel is valuable information. Airwayman

RE: Your thoughts after reading JR 12X manual
 

Eneloops are the ONLY way to go.... :D

There are also now a number of vendors who have the Eneloops available to fit inside the radios using cassettes for the battery pack like the 12X.

The 12X included charger is junk IMHO. Running at 12.0 volts rather than 11.6 it just flat cooks the batteries, anyone still using that charger IS going to have problems.