NebulaDDS

I've seen a lot of comments about how the HPI R40 Hara Edition is "outdated", and that the XRay NT1 and Mugen MTX-4 or Serpent 720 are newer. This doesn't in any way indicate why these three are better than the HPI R40 Hara.

When you examine the cars, their components are virtually the same. Someone did mention in response to my earlier post that the XRay has smaller differentials and lower rotating weight, which if true, is a valid argument in favor of the NT1.

What I'm looking for is an objective and technical evaluation of the differences between the cars.

Foxy

I don't think you really needed another topic about this... but... lets go again...one last time...

Of course the components are virtually the same, the components are virtually the same in full scale touring car racing as well.

Lets get one thing absolutely straight from the off... It's 90% driver. Any of the top competition cars that you mentioned can win races. The Kyosho is also one of the very top cars, I have a huge respect for it, don't leave it out of these discussions.

It depends what you want from a car...

Xray have a reputation for using the very best materials, of a slightly higher grade than their competitors, and also all xray models have an infinitessimal degree of accuracy in manufacture, so the parts fit and finish is impeccable. As well as being a nice thing to have, this leads to incredible durability by default, as there are no errant stresses due to poor parts fit, or a poor match of materials.

So... for an xray car, those things are a given, we can put them aside. This is the reason I believe the XB8 buggy while being no faster around a track necessarily than it's competitors is simply a 'better car', due to quality and durability. If someone wanted a very precise handling car, and wasn't so interested in durability, they might select something else.

In the case of the 1/10th on road nitros, Xray has incorporated all the good stuff from it's competitors, thrown in some stunning innovations, such as shock absorbers which have adjustable damping on the fly (just a twist of the shaft), a flex adjustable chassis, the smoothest belt system ever, a mesh free engine installation (yeh that's right, no need to worry about gear mesh, due to the genius design of the gears, you can change pinions and spurs without needing to readjust the mesh), the smallest differentials ever, one of the lightest cars ever, and made all these adjustments easy to accomplish without disassembling large sections of the car.

Add to that the product support from xray, benchmark setting manuals even a total retard could follow, busy forums updated daily with team driver opinions and details about the mods that are being done by pro drivers, and even forum posts by the people that designed the car. Set up sheets from team drivers who are willing to share their setups freely with anyone who wants to download them. And the best thing of all, the car includes an entire BOOK on how to adjust the car, each adjustment in detail, what change you can expect in the performance, and exactly how to make the change, PLUS a quick reference sheet for comparing tire diameters and overdrive ratio (option included in kit).

Then there's the satisfyingly inexpensive cost of parts, and the fact that almost all parts are available separately, you don't have to buy an entire two speed setup if you just want the two speed shoes for example.

Notice that none of these things necessarily makes it faster around the track. That's down to the driver, but it does make owning an Xray car an absolute joy, THAT's why I tout them as the best, and why owners are usually not interested in other brands.

As it happens, the innovations found on THIS particular car, DO translate into faster laps, so add that on top of everything else, and there you go.

I can't go into so much detail about the other cars as I don't know them as intimately, except the HPI, but the Mugen MTX4R is the current IFMAR world champion, so it's hard to argue with that. That particular car is all about handling, and an exceptional car it is.

The Serpent is a known contender the world over, and the kyosho was world champ before the mugen.

I've explained in great detail why I personally think Xray is a cut above the others, and I hope I won't have to go through this again soon...If you have any specific questions, fire away...btw, I've been racing 1/10th nitro for many years, and in the hobby since the earliest tamiya days some 20 years ago. I'm not just a fanboy banging on about his car...

NebulaDDS

You make some good points, but there are some that are rather dubious:

"Xray have a reputation for using the very best materials, of a slightly higher grade than their competitors." That one is hard to believe. They all use aluminum, carbon fiber, and fiber-reinforced plastic. Unless the NT1 comes with stainless steel components(which I don't believe it does), it uses essentially the same materials as everyone else.

"all xray models have an infinitessimal degree of accuracy in manufacture". Another comment that is highly debatable. I have an R40 Hara and I can honestly say that the parts and fit are impeccable. I'd imagine that all the other manufacturers produce the same quality, especially Kyosho.

"the smoothest belt system ever". Again, no proof.

Other than the weight and perhaps small diffs, the rest of your post doesn't explain why it's a superior car on the track. After all, we are dealing with race cars, right?

Foxy

lol. I HAVE nothing to PROVE, I don't work for Xray (though maybe I should! lol!). If you knew anything about the market and the various brands, you wouldn't find these comments dubious. I'm simply trying to give you the benefit of my racing experience and my experience as an owner of the car.

Oh, go on then... Why do I always bite... ok, smoothest belt system ever... line up the cars all in a line, and push each one with the same force. The Xray rolls further by not just a small percentage. I have tried this with all but the mugen. The drivetrain on the Xray is one the things that really sets it apart.

Xray are well known to have the best fit and finish of all the manufacturers, you don't believe me, read around...

Materials...well, Hudy invented some of the materials on the NT1, and they are certainly NOT the same as the others. The carbon fibre is a generic material, not invented by Hudy, but it is of a higher grade than most. HPI choose not to determine what type of aluminium is used on the Hara, so I suspect it is not swiss T6 7075 aircraft grade, as found on the Xray. The steel that is found on the Xray (not much as it is a very heavy material), is a special steel invented by Hudy, called unsurprisingly, Hudy spring steel, they make the finest RC hobby tools out of it as well (don't tell me you need proof that Hudy tools are the best, as it's a well known fact). The driveshafts, and tie rods are all made of this material, stronger and more flexible than stainless steel, and hard coated, so effecctively 'stainless'. It doesn't rust anyway, that's for sure. The belts are made af a new material, I don't know much about it, and the composite plastic is superior to most others (shown in the improved durability of the car, again don't ask for proof, I run with this car and others every weekend, and I've crashed it plenty, if you don't believe me, I don't want to hear it).

Bottom line... You can take my word for it, you can ignore me and buy one of the others, or you can buy an Xray. I really couldn't care less. Unfortunately, you are unlikely to get a second opinion from any experienced racers who own one as the car is very new and there are not that many US owners, I expect I am the only one with significant racing experience here who owns one. Unfortunately Xray's saturation of the US market has been slow to say the least. Owning an Xray in the US can be problematic from a parts perspective, although there are a number of online retailers offering a full selection of spares and options.

As for why it's faster on the track.... all of the above. Don't ask me from an engineering perspective, I'm not an engineer, just a driver, all I can tell you is that I and many other owners shaved a not insignificant amount of time off their personal best laps with this car. BUT, as I keep saying, they are all EXCELLENT racing cars, you can win a world championship with all of them if you can drive well enough.

Furthermore, don't misunderstand, this is hobby, not formula 1, the Xray is not totally perfect, the manual has a couple of errors, despite otherwise being outstanding, the kit supplied shock oil is totally inappropriate, and there were some 'issues' with the screws as well, but this was a side effect of Xray releasing three top competition cars in three months, and didn't cause me any problems. I also don't like the fact that the sway bar gets in the way when adjusting turnbuckles on the rear, but I can live with these things cos the car is absolutely spectacular on the track.

I'm done justifying what I'm saying. It should be enough for you that I run with these cars every weekend and know what I'm talking about. To be honest, even if you discard my supposedly 'dubious' comments, the rest of the stuff I posted above should be enough for most people. Lastly, there's no need to reiterate that we are talking about racing cars, I don't bash with the thing, or race against 4tecs (sorry 4tec owners, just an example).

Rs43EVOman

It isnt just materials and such that makes cars faster. In general they all run preatty much the same materials its the reaserch and devlopment on suspension geometry, wieght placement, and such that makes cars faster. In the end in preatty much every single class of R/C racing there is always a group of cars that are considered the fastest. And while 1 car might have somthing another one doesn't, and vice-cersa any of the cars can win. Every car has their own little pro's and con's, and they all come out about equal. But the thing is every time a manufacturer makes a car,or an up-dated version that they want to race at the highest level there goal is to "out-do" the other guy. So when a car like the R40 hasnt been updated in quite some time, while it's been the same for a while the other manufactures are constantly testing and adding new things to there cars, coming out with new versions to try and out-do each other, opening the gap between there updated new verions and the older R40. you asked us what do WE THINK are the best cars, and MY OPINION is that the R40 is a little out-dated. So you know any of these cars can win, racing is 90% driver. The way I say you schoose your car is go to the track and see what the top guys are running. Becuase it's a huge help when you've got the same chassis as some of the fast guys out there and you need help on things like set-up. If you see that nobody is runnign the Xray, or Kyosho, and the majority is running the Serpent I'd say go with the Serpent. Same thign if nobody runs serpent and the majority run Xray, go with the Xray. You also wanna see the parts avalabilty (unless you plan on only using the net), but usually if alot of people at the track run the same car the local shops are gonna stock it's parts.

NebulaDDS

Foxy, you have to use some common sense here.... We are dealing with toy cars that cost under $500.

No single person is going to "invent" materials, especially not for something as trivial as radio-controlled cars. Maybe Hudy mixed some different steel alloys together, but I can assure you that if he had something that was of superior strength than what's already available, he'd have sold it to some industry that is able and willing to pay him enormous sums of money rather than use it in some obscure place like the clutch bell of an R/C car that will likely not occupy more than 10% of the R/C car market (and that's a generous estimate).

As far as the aluminum grade used by XRay vs. HPI (or any other manufacturer), you're a bit misinformed here. There are no aluminum alloys that are "higher grade" than others. Each aluminum alloy has its advantages and disadvantages, and thus, it's appropriate uses. True, some may be lighter than others for a given volume, but the amount of aluminum we're talking about here is so small that doesn't make much of a difference, if any. Same applies to your comments about the tie-rods and drive shafts. In fact, contrary to what you think, drive shafts need to be rigid, not flexible, in order to transfer energy immediately rather than eat-up energy by flexing.

As for the NT1's carbon fiber being of "higher grade" than the others? Again, use your common sense. True, there are different grades of carbon fiber, but again, we are talking about the shock towers on a 1300-gram toy car, not a commercial jet aircraft. All of these shock towers are little more than a few layers of carbon fiber, machined into a certain shape. All carbon fiber grades are of adequate strength. Does it make sense that XRay would use a "higher grade" (and presumably more expensive) carbon fiber when a cheaper one would work equally well? Of course it doesn't.

And your rolling experiment? If in fact you did it, I seriously doubt you performed it under controlled conditions. As such, there are probably countless factors that affected your results. I'm not saying that you didn't achieve the correct result, but you certainly don't know that you did unless you used identical tires on each car, rolled them down the same precise path (which I'm sure you didn't), eliminated wind as a factor, and so on and so forth.

And yet, despite all of these alleged "superior grade" materials, the XRay costs the same as all the other competitor cars?

Some of your claims about the XRay NT1 just don't pass the logic/reasonability test.

Scavolini

Foxy took alot of time to explain the benefits of the car, more than anyone would help you out or be knowledgeable about the car, which is pretty rare.
So if ou want the Mugen, get it, but don't bash his responses. I wish someone spoke up on the Mugen or Serpent, when I asked the question myself, but these new track results in Europe w/ the NT1 and even Team Mugen drivers saying the NT1 is superior to the Mugen in ever way....can't ask for more of a sale if you're in the market.

The HUDY dude did his homework on this one though in order to really compete.

1.created spring steel and composite techologies to sell as tools and in car products and copyrights that technology.
2.sells the components to other high end race companies to learn from & collaborate w/ them
3.builds the XRAY company every other car platform (offroad, mini, electric, nitro, etc.) and saves his favorite for last.
(I can only imagine a 1/8 nitro car is coming next) to work out the kinks.

*The only thing for me is Mugen & Serpent have the official "NAMES" & established image/marketing of racing. The marketing is just a little weaker with XRAY. In the U.S. the name competes with the sound of "TRAXXAS". I decided to overlook since I learned that Xray(Hudy) supplies Serpent. And to me Serpent is the BEST brand image in marketing next to HPI's. (that doesn't effect performance, but it makes you feel really good.....

so in conclusion buy a "race car" that is well known and makes you feel good about it. If you like Mugen, buy that one.
But apparently if you want the best HUDY tool for the racetrack circuit on the market right now....all signs point to the NT1.

Foxy

Its really funny that you would at the start of your paragraph point out that they are 'toy' cars, then later bang on about wind resistance and tire factors for the rolling test. I rolled them on a shop counter and on the pit tables at the track, I'm not saying it's scientific! lol! But I am saying that the Xrays drivetrain is smoother. Or do you want an equation for that? Give me a break.

Here we go...last time...really...

Well, this is plain wrong. Perhaps I should have phrased better, I'm not saying its a better material to build buildings out of. Anyway the point is, for the RC market, it is a specially developed material with the correct properties for the application, you know how widely known and sold Hudy tools are? Only Xray cars have Hudy spring steel on them. Its a pretty colour too by the way.

I never said anything about 'grades' of aluminium, except that it is T6 aircraft grade (in other words, highest strength/weight ratio feasible for production). Furthermore, in touring car racing the 30g difference is very important and the ally chassis is the single heaviest part on the car apart from the engine. The 30g lost by better aluminium is absolutely worth it. Trust me. Also, tie rods and driveshafts need to be slightly flexible, I don't know WHERE you got the idea that rigid is better. Never mind, eh. Once again the point is that the material IS (whether you like or believe it) specially developed for RC.

You assume toooo much. lol. Why do you assume you know what is worthwhile and what is not? You think a difference of grade in carbon fiber wouldn't make a difference? Where to start with what's up with that, every gram counts, and flex/rigidity is everything... As for material and machining costs, you'll find that the other manufacturers are simply making more profit.

Covered this at the top...

Yes, nice of them huh?

Don't pass YOUR logic/reasonability test. Can I ask how old you are, what you do for a living and how long you've been in the hobby, what cars you run etc.? I'm 30 years old, 20 in the hobby, an IT consultant and one of the better touring car racers in Greece.

I'm bored with this now, so feel free to respond, even though I may not. You're simply taking up too much of my life arguing with me about something I don't believe you're equipped to argue about. Whilst I might at one point have been interested in debating with you, the conversation was heading toward its close the moment you called my $2000 track weapon a toy car. Now leave me alone, I'm offended. By the way, I do commend you on your spelling, punctuation and grammar.

DIABLOTAC78

man quit posting question if you think you know it already. your wasting space in rcu , and by the way foxy is absolutely right about what he said. stop for goodness sake of rcu stop being a ....... .we are trying to be kind and we are trying to be angel mr.devula

Rs43EVOman

Were trying to help you out. You ask us a question, and then you bash on all our answeres. In the end an expierenced R/C racer will realize that as i said before "In the end in preatty much every single class of R/C racing there is always a group of cars that are considered the fastest. And while 1 car might have somthing another one doesn't, and vice-cersa any of the cars can win. Every car has their own little pro's and con's, and they all come out about equal". If your looking for a "BEST"car there isnt a ture answere only opinions. Go to your track see what people are running, see if there is good parts avalibility in your area, and choose for your self.

NebulaDDS

I'm not trying to offend you. In fact, I really do appreciate your comments (even if I don't agree with some of them). All I'm saying is that you assume too much about the effort these manufacturers put into the design and manufacturing of their cars. It doesn't make sense for a company like HPI, XRay, Mugen, Kyosho, etc. etc. to use expensive, high-end materials. Why? For one, they are toys and also because when dealing with things on a small scale, they're not needed. Remember, these cars are usually around three to four pounds in weight, maximum.

One other point: these cars are indeed toys. The fact that people race them competitively doesn't make them anything otherwise. Would you consider riding lawnmowers, tractor-trailer trucks (minus the trailers), and frogs, to be racing machines because there are people who race them? If it moves, there are people who have raced them competitively. A radio-controlled car is a toy.

Foxy

If you want to say that we have a difference of opinion, I won't argue with that. You came with questions, I gave you opinions. You asked for facts to back up those opinions, I provided them. You were not satisfied with the facts, and proceeded to issue rebuttals. At the end you decided that you know what motivates these companies and I disagree. You claim they are toys, I disagree. There, my friend, is a clear case of a difference of opinion. To which we are both entitled. Good luck with your next car.

sputnikxxx

For you to justify this is a toy?.. how come you cannot buy it at walmart?....

In fact if you have ever read just about any rc instruction manual that comes with a nitro car... it clearly states this is not a toy....

By you saying this is a toy is just a justifiable as saying that a real car is a toy, now those ads you see on tv like the tyco rc's that you can get at wal mart , or toys' r us those are toys....

they do share some characteristics, they are remote controlled, they are used for enjoyment, this is not to justify a toy...

The dictionary term for toy says something for a child to play with, In most cases children are not playing with these, it is adults...

Now for you to call it a hobby I can go with that because that is what it is...

I have seen people on tv turn actual car's into remote controlled vehicles... you certainly wouldn't pass them off to a child and say here have at it....

Everyone has there opinion, and the right to express it... but the fact of the matter is, anything could be or not be considered a toy by the purpose it is inteded or used...

such as the xray nt1, if you own one of these most likely you have some track to go to that you race at, weather it is for enjoyment or competition... but you are probably still at a track... if you bought one of these for "playing" you would realize quickly that it is not intended for that manner of application.... seeing as you would have to replace a lot of parts and probably ruin the car..

DIABLOTAC78

toy? man this touring cars is not a toy. you need skill in this hobby . in toys you dont need skill to play with it . by the way this "toy" you are calling, is designed by engineer not by a toy makers

Foxy

So, Nebula, I think you begin to understand why the manufacturers take it seriously, and therefore invest the time and effort to produce revolutionary materials and superior products. Maybe this guy (Hudy) could have designed space shuttles, but he wanted to design RC racing cars. It's because WE take it seriously, the people who spend the money, and boy do we spend the money.

By the way, to take this toy thing a step further, you do realise that of all the brands we are talking about, ONLY Kyosho makes basher/casual class cars as well? All the others are STRICTLY racing companies. (EDIT: I'm no longer including HPI in this as, by the way, in case you didn't know, it's discontinued in Europe, which now makes them a company that only produces basher/casual class cars, without a single pro racing product, they handed all those over to hot bodies now)

DIABLOTAC78

calling mr. nebuladds pls. proceed to rcu thread

usernametaken

at the end of the day in this class of car it doesnt matter what you drive. I would imagine if HPI had factory drivers racing the R40 it would be posting good results to. At this level driver is major factor like many have said. If you want a HPI buy it, parts supply will be an issue as I was under impression car is discontinued, you can wait to see what Hot Bodies will bring out as I cant see HPI getting involved in serious competition anymore. Otherwise there are other great cars out there to choose from which makes for some exciting times ahead for onroad nitro. I have seen the NT1 advertising and seen some results of what factory drivers are doing and it all looks great. Me I am a kyosho fan and I can easily get kyosho parts cheaply and have been happy with the car I have, everyone has their preferred brand some stick to it others like to try different brands.
If you cant afford or justify the money on these kits, then you dont have to buy them. Just buy what you think is right for you and race and have some fun as that is what it is supposed to be about. I just race a slightly modified fw 05T against guys with serpents and mugens and Vones etc in a controlled horsepower class. Yes my car doesnt handle as great as the others but I am doing well and having fun and keeping the boys honest.

usernametaken

here you go nebula there is an aussie shop here who is clearing out the hpi r 40 and with lrp motor and pipe etc at real good prices. dont think you will find better prices and its all in aussie dollars so you will do good in the exchange rate.

http://www.*********.com.au/store/index.php?cPath=234

NebulaDDS

Hobbies can involve toys. There are people who collect GI-Joe figurines or Transformers. There are people who play board games competitively. The bottom line is that all of these things are toys. The fact that they go VROOOM or WHEEEEE and drive 60mph does not shed them of the title of "toy". The instruction manuals say that they are not toys because they want to make it clear to people who purchase these toys that they can cause injuries if misused. In this case, the expression "this is not a toy" is a figure of speech meaning "play with this toy cautiously".

As I said before, the fact that people pay a lot of money for these cars (myself included) and even race them competitively does not change the fact that they are toys.

Foxy42, I'm not saying that the manufacturers don't take the design and production of these cars seriously. Of course they do. But to suggest that cutting-edge, expensive materials and technology are going to be used in a product like radio-controlled cars is absurd....especially when it doesn't make that much of a difference! But let us say, hypothetically, that it DID make that much of a difference. Let us say that the presence of a 7075-T6 aluminum chassis made one car run faster than another, or that the car with the "higher grade" carbon-fiber shock towers didn't suffer from broken shock towers as the car with "lower grade" carbon fiber shock towers under driving conditions that are highly abusive to suspension systems (which on-road cars do not experience). The vast majority of people purchasing these cars (including the high-end cars) either don't race competitively or simply don't race at all, hence, they wouldn't care. Thus, it makes no sense whatsoever for XRay to use more expensive components yet fail to charge higher prices for their kits. XRay, like all the manufacturers, is in the business to make money. That's their top priority.

Be honest. If you owned a company that manufactured radio-controlled cars like HPI, XRay, Kyosho, Mugen, etc. etc., how would you go about producing a car? Would you find the most high-end materials you could find and include them in your car and sell your car for $400? Or, would you find the least-expensive materials you could get away with using (i.e. the materials that will 1. do the job reliably, and 2. that are approximately the same as what your competitors are using) and sell your car for $400 and make a bigger profit? If it's the former, then you need an economics 101 course.

Have you ever stopped to think why all of these high-end 1/10 racers look almost indistinguishable from the next? Why they all have the pulleys and servos in approximately the same place? Why they all use approximately the same materials in the same place? That never struck you as being an indication that they all want to be competitive WITHOUT investing too much money in R&D and materials?

As I said, it simply doesn't make sense that one manufacturer would use higher-end materials that are 1. generally unnecessary, and 2. not what it's competitors are using, and 3. a profit shrinker....and for what? An item that, for all intents and purposes, is a toy.

Jatohulk

Hey what Fox say take it word by word he help out a lot and knows a lot about these little toy so you call it. I have research the Hudy Steel and yes they are special than normal one that are use in other RC Car. By the way these little toy are big business and serious thing in deffernet part of the world so before you start saying these thing are toy think twice. They are not toy at all.. Yes Fox help out a lot Fox does not even know me at all and he helps me out a lot and trust me I PM so much times I think at time he will tell me to stop it but he answer every question and explain stuff very well. So before you start jumping on Fox back research it yourself.


Just my 2 cent and some changes.
Thanks

Foxy

I don't agree, and I think your point of view is cynnical and uninformed. You are wrong on so many levels. For one thing, saying that people buying these luxury cars don't race. The majority do.

If you tell me one more time to either 'use my common sense' or that I need an 'economics 101', we are going to fall out big style. Its clear to me that you have a reasonable IQ, so apply it and do some research. If it's not in materials and design, then tell me, how do you think these companies differentiate themselves from one another?

You have your beliefs, I have mine, lets just leave it at that. I have no interest in discussing this further, as it seems no matter what I say, you remain stubborn and I'm sorry to say it, ignorant.

NebulaDDS

Foxy, you ask a very valid question:

"If it's not in materials and design, then tell me, how do you think these companies differentiate themselves from one another?"

In two ways: 1. by winning races (which I, you, and all of our colleagues here on this forum know occurs only in the hands of a very skilled driver), and 2. by advertising (which involves the use of many misleading phrases like "high strength", "high grade", "extended life", etc., as well as pointing out that the car has won races).

R/C cars is not a big industry (when compared to other non-toy products). It certainly doesn't have the kind of following that would earn it more TV coverage. That's a perfect reason why these manufacturers cannot spend a lot of money on R&D. Take IndyCar racing. It earns tons of money. I was watching the Indy 500 last month and was shocked to hear by one of the commentators that the steering wheel for Indy cars typically cost around $48,000. Can you imagine how much money has to be associated with a sport from advertising/sponsorship where the teams can afford to install a steering wheel that costs $48,000? That kind of money has to come from television-based advertising. Personally, I've never seen an R/C car race on network television. I doubt I ever will.

Moreover, what is so cynical about calling these cars "toys"? There is nothing belittling about the term.

Foxy

My reference to cynicism is not relative to your statement that they are toys. That is an opinion you are entitled to. It refers to your belief that every company is motivated only by their bottom line.

Anyway, enough now.

NebulaDDS

Foxy, you're obviously a well-educated fellow. I'm sure you know that money drives everything. Money comes first, quality comes second. That's a harsh reality, but it's nonetheless a reality. And it applies to every industry. Even health care. I don't treat patients in my own practice who are unable to pay.

DIABLOTAC78

AMEN