Stickbuilder

Rib count and upright detail on the fuselage? It depends on what is shown on your documentation. Most of the better 3 views will give a rib count, but not many (if any) will give a detail of the fuselage uprights. I do compare the number of scallops on the trailing edge of the wing/s with the documentation. As I have said repeatedly, I can only compare your model to your documentation, regardless of what I know to be correct. I can, and will count off for poor documentation, and there are those who bring the bare minimum in order to try to maximize their score. It does not work. One case in point for this year was a builder who brought me the 3 view that showed a small diameter nose probe. Then he laid down a photograph to show a better detail of the Main gear door, but this photograph also showed the full scale airplane with the large diameter nose probe. Cost him a quarter point. Be careful of what you bring to the judge, it can bite you in the arse.

As to the whole ARF in scale contest thing, why? If the contest has a builder of the model rule, you can't compete in the first place. If you know that the scale outline is off, then why enter the competition with it, especially if it will be static judged? Using a different comparison, if you bring a showroom stock Ford Focus to the National Roadster Show, would you expect to win? It is the same thing with the top level Scale Model events. Scale is scale, and sorta scale or Stand way off scale, or Schoolyard scale does not belong in events of that type. Your local shows where the public decides who has the prettiest airplane is where your ARF belongs, but not at the top levels of Scale competition.

Bill, Waco Brother #1
Top Gun Scale Outline Judge

Oberst

I think I can answer that. No.

Sometimes it's very hard to even get the documentation, that's why I believe that judges should be more educated in the planes they are judging instead of just being volunteers with limited knowledge. Now if all the judges had a copy of the original blueprints and did their homework, then I would think there would be less debate on the subject

I forgot to mention that I ment no disrespect to anyone in here, and I forgot to mention tha Kits can be Bashed just as much as ARFs. I've seen some BUSA aircraft that beat GT and Proctor Models just because they made the accurate changes and did all the details correctly. They didn't seem to over do it in the wear and tear department, and they didn't enter the contest with a brand new looking airplane.

I've seen the BUSA Einedecker Mod build a few years back and my jaw hit the floor! I think a few guys even had the warped wing aileron control. So I guess the right thing to do is let anyone enter what they want in most any type of scale competition. I think that would be the more open minded approach to this debate. My wife said somthing last night that got me thinking; " How many times have I entered in a contest with my Kit, and was beaten by a bashed ARF and I didn't even know about it ?"

I still can't answer that.

Thanks abufletcher for the kind words. I could go even more with the details. (like adding that Clerget) But unfortunately I'm worried about possible cooling issues if I were to do so. I'd rather be safe than sorry and just accept the loss of points. If I make a perfect scale flight I could make up for some of the lost points. If I nose over or have a wing failure- I could win the whole event and take home the First Place Trophy! LOL!

I was going to have cable control instead of using the pushrods, but I would of had to break open my Fuse. Now if I were to do that then my experience would prove that ARF Bashing can be more difficult than putting a kit together. With a ARF, we have to plan ahead and modify around the made design without breaking anything. A kit, you can just plan ahead and build around whatever you plan to mod.


Pete

Stickbuilder

So if you can't get the documentation, it is virtually impossible for you to know exactly how to build it, and it is just as hard for me to judge what you have done. This is not s generic type of modeling. It is exact. You replicate something, and not just give the impression that it is period correct. Doing that is not scale modeling.

You are now saying that you don't intend any disrespect toward anyone, but on more than one occasion, you have cast doubt and disdain toward the Judges. Think you can do a better job? Take a Judges position at one of your local contests, and work your way up to the top levels of judging. Then come on back with your hat in your hand. If having the world's best bring their best efforts for you to approve does not make you feel humble, then pal, you are in the wrong game.

Bill, Waco Brother #1
Top Gun Scale Outline Judge

Oberst

You're taking things too personally. Take a step back and take a few breaths before hitting that "ok" button. I was talking about my personal experience with judges, which may or may not vary with your personal experience as a judge. I was not personally attacking you.

The point is that judges should already have that historical documentation. A Judge should know more or just as much as the builder about the aircraft/boat/car/whatever that is being judged. A book on hand or actual credentials to an air/transportation museum isn't a MUST, but it is a plus. How would YOU feel if say, an auto mechanic or some joe off the street looked at your broken TV and said "I can fix it?" - would you have any confidence in them? Same goes for Judges. I don't want a judge that doesn't know an aileron from a flap or doesn't know the proper rivet pattern or RLM color of my FockeWulf judging it, because there WILL be mistakes.

I'd love to judge one of these days, I think it would be an interesting experience, but not until I have the documentation and the knowledge on the aircraft besides the ones I am building at the moment. I can't tell you the number of the stitches on a Sopwith Pup or how long the propellor of a Mustang should be in reference to the wing span. I like challenges though (hence why I took a crashed ARF and bashed it to Valhalla and back (it would be Hell and back, but it IS a German plane [;D] )so perhaps in the future, once I have acquired that knowledge, I will go judge a small event.

Do you know that Jacobs was one of the last to use the Fokker DR1, and refused to give it up when the Fokker DVII and Fokker DVIII came in to service? He used his Fokker DVII only for high altitude combat, and used his Fokker DR1 for lower ceiling combat. It is well documented that English and French Forces claimed they saw one black Fokker DR1 in a squad of Fokker DVII's.

I have documentation in writing that Jacobs got rid of the Oberursel in his planes and used the Clerget with a British Camel Prop. Do you? I can't find any documentation on Jacobs 3rd plane other than one small photo. Do You?

So you can't tell anyone his plane is wrong unless you have the documentation to prove otherwise, correct?

I have significant concerns about how people are going to view the Scale "clique" and RC modelling/flying in general - a lot of people have bad attitudes and a "know it all" attitude - I thought the intent of the RC hobby was to be welcoming and bring IN new folks, not drive them away. An attitude like the one you are displaying won't give the hobby any positive points.

Pete

G-BBYB

I am not as experienced at scale competitions as the guys that are giving us an insight here, to which I say thank you. I am also certainly not experienced with the US way of doing things. However from everything I have read, Pete, I think you have missed how scale competition works. You build to exact documentation. Not to a type but an exact aircraft. I think that is why top competition models are often based on aircraft that are still flying or availiable to study today? If you cannot find a color chip, or a good set of photos showing the three views then you need to choose another subject. As I see it the judges cannot be expected to know not just the details of every single type of aircraft and variants but exactly what was changed on each one during service. The judges job is surely to validate that the documentation that is presented is validatetd and the model exactly replicates the documentation?
Anyway just my thoughts....

ARUP

'Scale contests' are beauty contests- plain and simple. Nice to see but too subjective. Just like the 'chicas' that 'compete'! How many of them are origional? Plastic surgery, hair treatments, duct tape, 3M spray, the list goes on. Some are deemed more beautiful than others? By what authority? What criterea? They pretty much ALL look good to me! It boils down to some subjective ruling(s) to justfy 'scores'. That's why I don't bother about scale contests, etc. I appreciate what goes into the models presented but... if I'm going to compete it won't be by, say for example, ice dancing but in a true competitive venue where the winners are signifyed by cycling faster (what I have done for 30 years), flying higher, knocking the other guy out, scoring more goals and etc.
I sure like scale airplanes, though!

Jaybird

I agree with G-BBYB, how could any one person be so prepared and knowledgeable on every aircraft ever built and every variation of that aircraft that they could verify that documentation presented by a model builder on anything dropped in front of them is absolutely correct or not. It's the modeler's resposibility to collect documentation, build to it and then present both to the person judging so that he or she can then use their skills to compare the two and formulate a static score.

Your statement:

"I have significant concerns about how people are going to view the Scale "clique" and RC modelling/flying in general - a lot of people have bad attitudes and a "know it all" attitude - I thought the intent of the RC hobby was to be welcoming and bring IN new folks, not drive them away. An attitude like the one you are displaying won't give the hobby any positive points.

Pete "

....seems to covey the same attitude that you are complaining about. Perhaps you need to experience a scale contest...with an open mind...to see what actually happens and how they actually work...or not..and then figure out how to make the process better. It sounds like a lot complaining about something that you haven't done yet.

Jaybird

cocobear

My Feedback: (2)

Wow, alot of negativity flowing. With almost no exceptions, everyone I know who competes in scale will bend over backwards to help each other. I have had fellow competitors help me repair my airplane knowing that if it flies again I would beat them. ARUP, the rules justify the score. Outline, markings, and color. Sure at some level unless it is a race, all of life is subjective. The point is, get out, have fun, and meet new people. Have you had a bad experience at a contest? Jaybird, by the rules, a judge is supposed to leave his/her personal knowledge of the aircraft at home and judge by the documentation provided. As to authenticating, the honor system is the current standard. If someone wants to win so bad as to cheat, that is sad and I feel would provide a hollow victory at best. I too prejudged scale events prior to entering. My only regret was not doing so sooner. I got killedddddddddd at my first few but I asked questions and learned. Find some one successful and ask them why they are. That's what I did. I owe a great debt to Roy Valincort on that. He provided guidance and by my third season, I had a win. But, fun and fellowship are where it's at!

DJ

Jaybird

"Jaybird, by the rules, a judge is supposed to leave his/her personal knowledge of the aircraft at home and judge by the documentation provided. "

Yes, that was intent of my statement. Pete seems to have a very different opinion on that aspect and I was hoping for some help with clarification...thanks!

It is an emotional game to play in...there is a lot more at stake than just a high score and a trophy...a lot of yourself is represented in this unique aircraft and the builder may feel judged as much as his or her model. Some do go home mad which is understandable, but a shame if it's the last thing that happens. Your approach cocobear, sounds like the right one..live and learn and fly, fly again!

Jaybird

p.s. I do not have personal experience from entering a scale contest so my opions are just that.

Oberst

I've been to many local shows, so you can't make the the judgement that I haven't been to them or don't know how they work. Shame on you.

The shows that I have been to have had 5 judges or more. The one in Buffalo's International Show had 20. I won 3rd place in that event and have the Sycon Plaque dated October 20, 1996. Do you want a picture of it? I'll Post it.



My other Trophy's was destroyed accidently through the years moving. All photo's of my past work was destroyed in a fire back in 2000 in Eastwood, NY and the 3 planes I sold because I lost my job, and needed cash to pay bills so I wouldn't go hungry. The CNY Car Show sponsered the event at the S.T.A.R.S Show in Cicero, NY in 1995 and many other LHS also sponsered that event as well. As you can see I won 1st place in that event.

So please don't assume that I don't know OK? I've been away from the hobby for quite a few years and I just got back into it about 10 years ago. For me it takes years to get everything back I lost and I'm trying to remember all those tricks I once knew how to do.

Out of 10 judges and each one specialized in one or more planes, yes they can be knowledgeable of most planes that show up. I'm quite knowledgeable of the Fokker DVII and Fokker DR1, but I only just begun to learn more of the Fokker DVIII and learned they were in use in some airforces up to the 1920's! So in a few year's I'll have loads of info on 3 planes. Add that with 10 other judges that are knowledgeable of their 3 - THAT'S 30 Planes!

I have books and books and DVD's on the subject of aircraft, and run into a few when I flew the full scale. But I only know 2 for right now. Now does anyone know where a original Einedecker or DR1 that's in a Museum? All the ones that I know about were all modern reconstruction, so no- I won't base my models on a reconstruction and judges shouldn't base their Knowledge by it either.


I have a new ARF plane that's on my table now and is begging for attention, so I have better things to do. I've won before but like most others I left my ego at the door. I wrote how I feel about it and my personal opinion, now it's up to you all to take it or leave it and let the debate go on.


Pete

smithcreek

My Feedback: (25)

Ok, so as an extension or your "logic", kit building is actually more difficult than scratch building. I mean, a guy building a kit has to correct all the scale deviations that the original designer of the kit made made. He has to make all new parts, change the plans, make sure it all fits, etc. So, scratch builders have it the easiest, their plans don't have those mistakes to begin with. So the only logical conclusion is if assembling an ARF is more difficult than building a kit, and if building a kit is more difficult that scratch building, assembling an ARF must be more difficult than scratch building.

Jaybird

Yes, shame on me for not reading back through all the posts to verify your experince, sorry.

Congratulations on your wins and trophies, nice pictures!

Now, let's say I show up at a scale contest with, God forbid and ARF, and none of the ten judges present has any former or formal background knowledge on the aircraft I happen to present. Do I not get a static score because none of them has extensive knowledge on the plane I have in my hands? I'm just asking, because it seems like it would be possible under the framework you've described.

How is that H9 DVII doing? I haven't flown mine yet this season but I'm looking forward to it. Very nice detail work over in the DVII thread.

Jaybird

crownvic

I always thought that ARFS flew in fun scale or 520 where your picture was worth 10 points and the rest was scored on your flying ability. Where as in scale half is building and half is flying. I like the flying part crownvic

Oberst

Nice try.



Thankyou Sir. If I didn't give up on the hobby in the first place I wouldn't be learning all over again. I wish I had my old airbrush back. I bought another one and I wound up trashing it a few years ago, it was terrible! I finally stoped buying airplanes for a while and replaced my old drill press a few days ago. So on my list before my big scale project I need to get a good airbrush! Other than that I think I'm on my way.

If I brought a plane that was a highly modified Kit or ARF and the 10 judges didn't know what the heck I brought, then yes I would need to prove all I could what I did was correct. I'd also try and bring a copy of the original blueprints, and bring any written documentation that I had if any changes were done by the original pilot or ground crew. So you have a point.

Even though I admit I'd like the attention, I'd be a little worried about bringing a aircraft to a event that was extremely rare like a prototype. If I did, I think I would need to bring a file cabinet with me, and that wouldn't be fun.

I'm still waiting to see someone show up with pink tires and debate with the judges that they are accurate on a WWI plane. LMAO

My Fokker DVII is doing great, and it's ready to go for the season. She still looks brand new like the first day I started the build off with you. Everyday I look at it and I want to Bash it. But because she's in top rate condition, I'll wait until it's time to re-cover and make it all cable control and get rid of those pushrods. Those guns got to go and the hatch has to be improved etc.

Thanks for asking. I hope yours is faring as well?

GTG!


Pete

cocobear

My Feedback: (2)

Not being argumentative, but... judges need not and should not have specific knowledge. Documentation IS required in Sportsman, Expert, and designer. Yes, currently ARF's fly in fun scale and also in Open per scale masters rules. Open requires diocumentation and allows ARF's and scale modifications gleen more points. Link to rules below.

http://www.modelaircraft.org/files/2...C-CLScale2.pdf

DJ

Jaybird

Off topic, but yes it's doing fine. I've swapped the Evolution 61 which would overheat for an OS 61 and will be converting to Spektrum receiver before I fly. It will be at Rhinebeck for the third time in September as long as it stays in one piece!

Back on topic, it seems on one hand it would be easy to define an ARF an put it a "class" and compete within that class. On the otherhand, it's been shown that the line between "ARF" and "kit" can be blurred if you try hard enough an then you're left with someone having to make a command decision. Having the rules posted and explained up front for each contest situation would be one answer.

Jaybird

John Casey

My Feedback: (4)

FROM THE RULES...."Kits containing large amount of prefabrication are permissible as long as the final assembly of the parts and covering and/or painting are done by the builder. Models which are completely prefabricated and require only a few minutes of unskilled effort for their completion shall be excluded from competition except as noted in individual events."

I could see an ARC class being created.....the airframe outline, (which would be excluded from judging)
everything else that is covered in the current rules would apply as " the modeler"
would have to glass/cover/ detail/rivet/paint and do everything the kit/scratch builder does.

Many of "us" have bought an airplane .."framed up" .....then glassed, sanded, detailed ,
and painted it into a work of art ....worthy of the scale masters.
How is an ARC any different?

Jaybird

Some fellow club members just returned from Top Gun and I posed the "how many judges were there" question and here is one response....

Jay… There were separate judges for scale and flying. At least three scale judges, two from 15 feet and one close up for detail. I’m not sure of all the rules since I didn’t have a plane in the event. Check the “Top Gun” website you may find some of the rules. There were two flight judges for each round. I don’t think the judges specialized, but I’m not sure…. Bill


One example of how a scale contest is currently run.

Jaybird

TexasAirBoss

My Feedback: (22)

I wish we had this kind of argument at my club.

Most guys around here just fly giant IMAC ARFs. (not that there is anything wrong with those) But most folks (around here) wouldn't consider flying anything else.

As the lone, freak, scale builder I must admit that I have begun kit-bashing ARFs and I must say that I love it. Wham , bam, thank you mam. Ting, a new custom ship.

As for competeing with them, I say why not. The building is really just rote labor anyway. The artistry is in the finishing, at least at my house. However, I disagree that scale ships are just beauty queens. That is only true if you don't know what you are doing. A good scale ship should not only look good, it should perform well and be 100% reliable. Anything less is BS.

Stickbuilder

There are indeed 3 judges that score your static entry. The Craftsmanship judge is out there with the model and does the close up evaluation. The Color and Marking judge is at the 15 foot distance, and is marking your color and markings. The outline judge (me) is at 15 feet, and judges your model for fidelity of scale outline per your documentation. I'm the one that has you to orient your model in a side, front and either top or bottom view as your 3 view mandates. I judge Team Scale, and Unlimited Classes.

Here is a picture of me at work receiving the documentation package from a competitor. His entry is on the table. The gentleman to my right is the color and marking judge.

Bill, Waco Brother #1
Top Gun Scale Outline Judge.

Jaybird

Thanks for the additional clarification.

I'm not trying to fight with Pete, it would be great if there were that many people qualified (10 per contest for his plan) across the country to attend and judge a contest, but the facts are different. His plan is unrealistic in my opinion. No sense arguing over what should be done when what is done works for most of the contests.

Back to ARF bashing, or is that ARF "bashing"?

Jaybird

tenacious101010

My Feedback: (97)

There are so many variables in building a plane, there are boxes of lumber, there are boxes of wood with a composite fuselage, there are composite fuselages with foam core pre-sheeted wings, there are "kits" offered that have the rivets and panel lines already on the plane. Unless you judge one specific kit against another persons build of the same kit, it will never be completely equal. There would be too many categories for same aircraft to be judged. I had an aircraft that was using a purchased composite fuselage, a wing and tail feathers built from two other sets of plans, and the whole thing was sheeted in aluminum sheeting. Now I didnt see any other aircraft at Top Gun that were built the same and I didnt expect to. If someone was able to take a mass production ARF and make it look better in the judges eyes that my custom detailed one, then they have done an outstanding job in my opinion. I dont remember seeing and two or more of the same kit at the event. When the builder wants to compete in an event, he has to know the rules, pick his subject, keeping in mind the type of judging and go from there. If its an Almost ARF or a box of wood, he builds knowing the rules and the competition. If the rules dont fit ones ideas, it might be best if they compete elsewhere or dont compete. Like it or not, the hobby is changing and there arent as many builders out there to have the number of planes that is required to put on a huge event. If ARFs and Almost ARFs cant compete, the competitions will start going away faster than they already are. I did compete in Top Gun for the first time this year. I am glad there were ARFs there. If there hadnt been, it wouldnt have been near as nice a show. My BT-13 was no trophy winner, but I had a blast anyway! And, thanks to the judges, I thought you all did a great job!
Denny

jessiej

Much like allowing ARFs in Wakefield etc. Lowering of the bar. We do it in education, why not with our toys?

jess

tenacious101010

My Feedback: (97)

The radio control airplane hobby is going through a change much as the hot rods some of us build and drive. It used to be we would go out to the junk yard and find what we wanted to put on our custom vehicle or we would make it from whatever. The vast majority of the more modern hot rods are done by people buying items "out of the box" and bolting them on. People just dont have the time, knowledge or what is required to build their own hot rods and RC airplanes. Its not just this hobby.
Denny

abufletcher

That's almost the conclusion I've come to! At the very least you have to ASSUME that every single thing on a kit isn't quite right. You have to assume that the undercarriage isn't in exactly the right spot and you have to assume that the wing cord is a smidge too wide and you can almost guarantee that the airfoil is wrong and.... Really, on most kits, it's almost everything. On the BUSA eindecker, you'd need to scratch-build a new fuselage as well as a completely new rudder and elevator....oh and you'll need completely new wings and the stock wing isn't in the right location and the stock cowl is too deep and much too small...and the gear isn't scale (by a mile).

So yes, I'd say bashing some kits into a serious scale model is absolutely harder work that just starting from scratch!