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Rivets and panel lines in a 60 size AT-6?

Old 09-07-2011, 03:33 PM
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Scratchie
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Default Rivets and panel lines in a 60 size AT-6?

I'm finishing up a Top Flight AT-6 kit. I don't know how "scale" the kit is (I didn't move the tail wheel forward), but I'm working with pictures of an actual AT-6 in Kansas. The plane is fiberglassed with multiple layers of sealer and filler where needed, and is very, very smooth and straight. Anyway, after reading posts I’m working if rivets would be worth the effort, and if panel lines alone would look unfinished?
Old 09-07-2011, 03:43 PM
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AmishWarlord
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Default RE: Rivets and panel lines in a 60 size AT-6?

Rivets are fun to do. Why not?

Don't kill your self making perfect rows either. Looking at WW II planes it looks to me that Rosey the Riviter sucked and couldn't pop a strait line if her life depended on it. But then again that was a C-47 I was looking at and Boeing had some hos working in the plant by day and under the plant by night. LOL
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Old 09-07-2011, 03:57 PM
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Scratchie
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Default RE: Rivets and panel lines in a 60 size AT-6?

Its my first time with rivets and panel ines - I'm not expecting any problems with the work. From what I've read, white glue on a toothpick would be a good choice for the rivets. What about using the method of 1/32 tape an dbuilding up primer for the panel lines? Any other methods I should think about? btw, how does the Top Flight AT-6 kit rate as scale/semi-scale?
Old 09-07-2011, 04:03 PM
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Default RE: Rivets and panel lines in a 60 size AT-6?

Depending on the size of the model, I can provide vinyl rivets.

I make them in single rows or multiple rows. Generally as described by the builder.

Size, number of rows, etc.

Obviously, the larger the model the better.

Charles
Old 09-07-2011, 04:06 PM
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Scratchie
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Default RE: Rivets and panel lines in a 60 size AT-6?

maybe next time, I'll try making my own first - thanks
Old 09-07-2011, 09:38 PM
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Laird SS
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Default RE: Rivets and panel lines in a 60 size AT-6?

The glue drop method of making rivets is good for round headed rivets that are raised above the surface of the metal, however, I think the AT-6 used flush rivets, didn't it. If so, a different technique would be required, eg, a short length of brass tubing of the correct size (from K & S) in a small soldering iron or wood burning iron would work well.
Old 09-08-2011, 12:16 AM
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Default RE: Rivets and panel lines in a 60 size AT-6?


Careful of the white glue also.

I got a hold of a brand one time that when the glue dried it shrunk. The caused the rivet heads to have a dimple in them.
Old 09-08-2011, 07:35 AM
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Scratchie
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Default RE: Rivets and panel lines in a 60 size AT-6?

Thanks for the tips, you're correct, the rivets are flush so I'll read up on the brasss tube technique. What about using the 1/32 tape and built-up primer method for the panel lines? Should I look into a different method?
Old 09-08-2011, 08:20 AM
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Default RE: Rivets and panel lines in a 60 size AT-6?

Depending on the scale you may want to consider 1/64th chartpak tape to get closer to the correct size. Here is my B-25 with 1/64 tape used for panel lines.
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Old 09-08-2011, 11:12 AM
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Scratchie
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Default RE: Rivets and panel lines in a 60 size AT-6?

Thanks - I didn't know there was a 1/64th size.
Old 09-08-2011, 11:48 AM
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Default RE: Rivets and panel lines in a 60 size AT-6?


ORIGINAL: Scratchie

Thanks for the tips, you're correct, the rivets are flush so I'll read up on the brasss tube technique. What about using the 1/32 tape and built-up primer method for the panel lines? Should I look into a different method?
The AT-6 / SNJ was built using "round-head" rivets throughout from nose to tail. Spot welding was also used on the front half of the cowling, not to be confused with "flush-rivets".
At the time the AT-6 was being developed, ( 1934 NA-16 ) "flush-rivets" were not widely used and the process was time consuming and not quite ready for mass production standards of the day.

The design team working for Howard Hughes charged with developing the H-1 racer, also in 1934, began experimenting with this new technique as a means of reducing drag only after the first test flights revealed less than desirable speeds. That was in the fall of 1935.

Tooling for the NA-16 had already begun. First flight: NA-16 April 1935, BT-9 April 1936, NA-26 ( AT-6 ) 1937. First flight for the Hughes racer was September 1935 at which time flush rivets were not yet used.

The good news is the AT-6 has lots and lots and lots of "round-head" rivets Many hours of fun to replicate

Have fun!
Ken.
Old 09-13-2011, 08:11 PM
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Chad Veich
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Default RE: Rivets and panel lines in a 60 size AT-6?

As pointed out by Ken the Texan uses button head rivets almost exclusively in its construction. The only place I found any flush rivets were on the leading edges of the wing and horizontal stab. The airplane is also built with overlapped panels rather than flush so, while the chart pack tape method for panel lines could be used and look good, it is not really scale. On my Texan I used spot putty built up against the edge of electrical tape for the panel lines and white glue drops for the rivets.

Old 09-13-2011, 09:29 PM
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Default RE: Rivets and panel lines in a 60 size AT-6?


[quote]ORIGINAL: Chad Veich

As pointed out by Ken the Texan uses button head rivets almost exclusively in its construction. The only place I found any flush rivets were on the leading edges of the wing and horizontal stab. The airplane is also built with overlapped panels rather than flush


Chad makes a good point of which I had forgotten. North American Aviation did use "flush"-rivets on the first third of the wings' chord for the T-6 as well as the B-25. In an effort to both streamline and save construction time, they only used "flush"-rivets at the leading 30% of the airframes. I knew this but I had a brain fart

I hope these photos help illustraight this. I have others that I'm trying to locate that show the wings surface better. It's better to take the photos inside a hangar to see surface details.
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Old 09-15-2011, 03:20 PM
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Default RE: Rivets and panel lines in a 60 size AT-6?

Chad, what is the exact type of spot putty you used? Did you use something like the top flite scale warbird template for spacing the rivets, or did you make your own template? Also, maybe a dumb question, it looks like only the panel edges running the length of the wing are raised, what did you do for the other edges?

Finally, I’m having a trouble deciding on a paint scheme. I read the books suggested in the top flite building manual, but nothing stands out. What would be good references? Because of my family history, I’d like a scheme from May of 1942 or August of 1944.
Old 09-17-2011, 05:13 PM
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Default RE: Rivets and panel lines in a 60 size AT-6?

Try getting hold of Bob's aircraft documentation, he has lots of pictures of SNJ's and AT-6's in every color scheme possible. Once you know how detailed a photo pack you need and what type of markings Bob can help you from there.

www.bobsairdoc.com

To get an idea of what is out there look in www.airliners.net and do a global photo search under "AT-6" and "SNJ" and you can then find something that works for you, then call Bob and find a complete pack that meets your needs.

Land sofly,
Fred Cronenwett
Old 09-17-2011, 08:14 PM
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Default RE: Rivets and panel lines in a 60 size AT-6?

ORIGINAL: Scratchie

Chad, what is the exact type of spot putty you used? Did you use something like the top flite scale warbird template for spacing the rivets, or did you make your own template? Also, maybe a dumb question, it looks like only the panel edges running the length of the wing are raised, what did you do for the other edges?

Finally, I’m having a trouble deciding on a paint scheme. I read the books suggested in the top flite building manual, but nothing stands out. What would be good references? Because of my family history, I’d like a scheme from May of 1942 or August of 1944.
I used the Bondo brand glazing putty available at just about any hardware or automotive type store.



My rivets are made in a bit of an unusual manner. They are laser cut from vinyl which is then applied to the airframe and then a drop of glue is placed on each spot of vinyl. I did it this way in an attempt to keep all the rivets very uniform in diameter. It worked nicely but is a lot of work since you are basically riveting the airplane twice. Most guys simply lay out where the rivets go and then mark off the distance between them with a ruler and a soft pencil.

All of my panel lines are raised and lapped with the overlaps facing outboard on those running fore/aft and the overlaps facing aft on those that run the length of the surface. It can get confusing at times but, basically, you start from the bottom and the back and work your way upward and forward. Once you get started it becomes apparent how to proceed.
Old 09-18-2011, 08:04 AM
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Default RE: Rivets and panel lines in a 60 size AT-6?


ORIGINAL: Scratchie

Thanks - I didn't know there was a 1/64th size.

Here's a source for 1/64" tape:

http://www.grafsticktapeandlabel.com/category-s/43.htm

Scott
Old 09-18-2011, 10:09 AM
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Default RE: Rivets and panel lines in a 60 size AT-6?

ORIGINAL: saramos


ORIGINAL: Scratchie

Thanks - I didn't know there was a 1/64th size.

Here's a source for 1/64'' tape:

http://www.grafsticktapeandlabel.com/category-s/43.htm

Scott


Thank you Scott! No more slicing black 1/2" tape with a #11 and strait edge for me!
Old 09-19-2011, 02:24 PM
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Default RE: Rivets and panel lines in a 60 size AT-6?


ORIGINAL: Avaiojet

Depending on the size of the model, I can provide vinyl rivets.

I make them in single rows or multiple rows. Generally as described by the builder.

Size, number of rows, etc.

Obviously, the larger the model the better.

Charles
Is there a seam?
Old 10-22-2011, 01:55 PM
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Default RE: Rivets and panel lines in a 60 size AT-6?

All T-6 at Reno air races are flush rivet and are "stock". There have been people "kicked out" of competition for ? Re:rivet alignment- North american  used excellent tooling to make the more than 18,000 airframes. My observations at Reno were -straight and smooth. Go to EAA.ORG for the Oct article on the T-6. Keep building y keep flyin. Jack
Old 10-22-2011, 02:12 PM
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Default RE: Rivets and panel lines in a 60 size AT-6?

For colors Google Mary Dilda ' who won at least one Gold in T-6 and one Gold in Jets. She is much prettier in person than pictures.Reno is a great place to get pictures up close of GREAT airplanes -stock y modified and meet wonderful people. DOnot avoid Section 3-orange shirts-wonderful people-everyone welcome.Jack (I think it's "Deuce of Hearts".
Old 10-22-2011, 02:27 PM
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Default RE: Rivets and panel lines in a 60 size AT-6?

Mary Dilda's Plane is the Two of Hearts. I dont think she owns it anymore as it is at a different airport here.

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