abufletcher

Very nice work!

geezeraviation

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It has enough detail on it to keep it interesting to the normal onlookers at a fly in or a model show and is really a nice airplane excepting the fact that in a scale sense it comes up a bit short.lol
Doc

gabriel voisin

Hi,

one side of the Lewis"LIST OF PARTS IN GUN".

greetings Matz

Mein Duff

Doc. Thanks for posting your SE5 pics..nice looking bird with good detail around the top deck area, hinges and screws etc. so many builders just gloss over this area and smooth it out...
I am surprised you need so much power to fly this thing..I am planning on a laser 4 stroke_ V 200 (33 cc) for my 1/4 scale...not sure of All Up weight yet ....but getting heavier every day..... The Laser is a very powerful little beast though.

The tail end of the SE5, with all the hardware, seems to be a critical area to keep weight down if possible. Also the alu-front grill really looks the part.

Abu... thanks for farming that video and providing good still shots. Now I see how the drum really looks... Not quite sure of the best way to replicate that piece with my primitive hand tools. Its clear that the MR or Balsa USA kit parts will not do the job to my satisfaction in this area.
And as you said, this is a very obvious on top of the wing area that one first notices... and lets face it...nothing beats a very convincing machine gun that exudes that steel, oil and cordite feeling.

abufletcher

Actually, the more I look at the MR vacuum formed drum the more I think that might not be a bad starting point. What I mention earlier about it lacking sharp edges actually makes it look more like the original. If you've going to scratch-build a drum, I think you'll need to start with a basic disk, then add a "spider" of cardstock or styrene, then perhaps fill in the edges with putty to smooth them out.

To get a smooth "metal" feel to the gun, you can use a balsa core for the receiver and then surface it with thin styrene. That's the approach I took with my scratch-built Madson.

*****

Come to think of it, I may actually have used lithoplate to cover the receiver parts. Nothing like like metal as much as metal!

geezeraviation

My Feedback: (3)

The shutters (front grille) is made from styrene strips as are the side plates that hold it on. It's painted with Model Masters aluminum to good end.
To make the ribbed part of the drum on my gun a heavy paper "spyder" was glued to the drum (wood disc and rings) and pulled down over the sides and stuck on then heavily painted to fill it in and round out the fillets as you are trying to replicate a stamped metal part. The mick reeves might be a good one to get and look at. You can always use parts from more than one kit to achieve the desired gun. The Vickers guns on my 1/3 N28 are BUSA reciever parts and Mick Reeves barrel shrouds that are vac formed and the fluting was really good looking. The join for the halves took a bit of fill and fiddle but came out OK. I may know a fellow who could supply laser cut spyders for it if you wished to made wooden ones.
Doc

Mein Duff

EXCELLENT INFORMATIVE VIDEO... thanks for posting that !!

abufletcher

Since I had the MR Lewis kit out, I measured the diameter of the vacuum-molded drum. It was exactly 5cm. Since this is supposed to be 1/4 scale would mean 20cm (7.87"). The actual drum diameter as show in the diagram posted by Matz above is 8.06" so this is fairly close.

gabriel voisin

Don,
the drum has a radius of R = 4.0625. "
This blueprint drawings I have from a great canadian friend, he build also full size aircraft.

abufletcher

I saw that measurement. However, I read that as the radius for the curve on the body of the gun, not the drum. Note that the arrow goes beyond the inside circular line (representing the drum).

gabriel voisin

Yes that's right Don, but I have the full size blue prints (1:1) and was able to measure the gap between the drum and the housing.
The gap is only 1 mm - 1.2mm, and thus of little significance.
I do not think that you are working at your model so accurate as the measurements are in the drawing.
You can deduct the 2 mm or 2.5 mm from the diameter, it's so easy.

Matz

abufletcher

I agree. My point really was that the vacuum-formed drum on the MR kit appears to be the correct size.

Flying Fox

Wow - some very nice technical drawing for those machine guns, and some excellent scale modelling of the weapons too!
Does anyone have similar drawing or specifications for the French WWI Hotchkiss machine gun? I greatly appreciate any reference material as I have to make one in 1/4 scale for my Morane Saulnier N.

Bri

abufletcher

This might be helpful:

http://www.replicaplans.com/HotchkissM1914.html

Also you'll want to download and have a look at the (Polish) manual on the 1914 Hotchkiss, linked at the bottom of this page. Lots of great information there.

And a drawing I found though Google:

Mein Duff

Finally have my top center section finished so I can move onto the 1/4 scale Lewis gun.
I have blown up the Data File line drawings to correct scale and will be working from them mostly and adding detail as per the photos I have of the actual Lewis on the SE5.
After looking at most of the kits available I decided to scratch build my own, these are my beginning photos using 4mm alu tube going the whole length of the gun for longitudinal strength and are the right OD. I am so glad the alu cigar tubes I picked up eons ago have finally found a home as the barrel casing 15mm exactly as needed!
The gun handle and underpart was cut out of that hard composite computer board material which leaves nice crisp edges when cut on my mini jig saw with smallest blade I had.
I will be adding alu skins and building up all the undulating contours with alu mostly. The attachment brackets for mounting the to gun track on the wing will be silver soldered in brass.

abufletcher

That looks like an outstanding beginning...and I'm sure you're bring it to an outstanding conclusion. Scratch-building was definitely the way to go. It's a shame that so many builders are so frightened of this.

abufletcher

Interesting explanation (from Wikipedia) as to why Lewis guns were not mounted for firing through the propeller:

"When World War I era machine guns were being tried for use on aircraft, the Lewis gun was found not to be usable with a gun synchronizer for forward firing through the propeller, due to its firing cycle starting with an open bolt. The Maxim style arms used by both the Allies, as the Vickers machine gun and Central Powers, as both the LMG 08 and LMG 08/15 Spandau gun, and Parabellum LMG 14 gun, all fired with a cycle starting with a closed bolt, and since the bullet firing from the gun started the firing cycle, it was much easier to set the synchronizer to only trigger the gun when the propeller's blade was not in front of the gun."

WinterHawke

I've only seen photos and drawings of one WW1 fighter where a Lewis Gun was mounted on the fuselage and set to fire through the propeller, and that's the all red Nieuport 11 of Jean Navarre (the Sentinel of Verdun):





So while it apparently could be done, apparently the Lewis Gun was rarely used with a syncronizer.

Best regards,

Lee McD

abufletcher

Maybe it wasn't synchronized but rather using the French technique of putting steel wedges on the propeller.

TFF

I always love the story where the Germans tested a French plane with the shooting through the prop set up and found out that the Germans loaded hotter rounds and shot the prop off.

Mein Duff

Interesting facts about the synchronization issues with the Lewis....I have always wondered why the Vickers gun was mounted at slight upward firing angle and not parallel to the fuse on the SE5. Seeing as the SE5 was a relatively late comer to the war, why not simply two Vickers in the fuse as with the Camel?
I have never come across any written explanations of these issues.

Flying Fox

– and you’ve done an outstanding job of it! I admire the intricate details visible on your Lewis gun rail and mounting bracket, aluminum panel hinges and rivets, aldis sight, cockpit combing and even more so the cockpit appears spectacular. I’d love to see a detailed close-up shot of the cockpit and all its instrumentation. BTW – have I somehow missed a build thread on your SE5?
– this seems to be the best way to go if you want full accuracy and detail isn’t it? I like your approach with the choice of aluminum for building material. How do you cut thin aluminum and brass tube to prevent it from burring at the cut edge?
– I’m making my Hotchkiss with plastic tubing of various sizes and if the plastic is too thick for scale concentric rings then I’ll have to improvise with paper or thin plastic wrapped around the tube.

Looking forward to see how you finish up the lewis gun with the aluminum. And how about a nice close-up shot of that detailed cockpit!
Bri

Flying Fox

Did the SE5 fly with a slight nose down attitude thereby necessitating the slight upward angle? Good question.

abufletcher

I'm guessing it was a targeting/sighting issue. Remember that bullets are susceptible to the pull of gravity like everything else. As far as why the SE5 didn't have two Vickers I suspect it boils down to weight and its effect on flight performance. Remember, you not just adding the weight of a heavier gun, you adding all the ammo for that gun as well.

Flying Fox

In level flight the SE5a is actually in a -5 degree nose down attitude – the fuselage is not parallel to the horizon but the line of the guns and the line of fire were. The aldis sight is also set to this upward angle and would be parallel to the line of flight.

The SE5a Vickers machine gun was elevated to +5 degrees. Photos of SE5a flying show the nose down, tail up, attitude of about -5 degrees. The angle of incidence of the wings was +5 degrees. The Vickers and the Lewis gun on the wing mount were set to +5 degrees. Normal flight is about -5 degrees nose down, set by adjusting the tailplane handwheel on the lower left side of the cockpit which sets the tailplane at positive 5 degrees. This is the level flight trim for the S.E.5a. Thus you Fly and shoot straight and level but in a 5 degree nose down attitude.
reference: [link]http://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/aircraft/42468-se5a-armament-question.html[/link] see reply by

Two photos attached
Cheers,
Bri