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Pilots that have to fly ww1 tail draggers on paved runways

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Pilots that have to fly ww1 tail draggers on paved runways

Old 10-19-2013, 04:27 PM
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valleyk
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Default Pilots that have to fly ww1 tail draggers on paved runways

I'm starting to think twice about flying my third scale ww1 planes on paved runways. It's not the take off but landing that seems be a real problem. I can't really enjoy the feeling that any slight ground loop or nose over is going to sand my plane down to a pulp with prop pieces flying everywhere. For those who have to fly they're ww1 birds on paved runways the question is do you get over this or you just don't care?
Old 10-19-2013, 06:11 PM
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Eindecker_pilot
 
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I opted for practicality and added a tail wheel.
Old 10-19-2013, 07:17 PM
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Tmoth4
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On grass, I can usually cope with a crosswind and do a fairly decent landing. Recently, I flew at an event where we had to use a paved runway and, sure enough, I ground looped in the blink of an eye and scraped a wingtip. It sounds like you had a similar experience! The tailskid will get a good grinding too unless you have a tail wheel as Greg suggests or have metal cladding on it.

Jim
Old 10-20-2013, 07:46 AM
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Steve Percifield
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That's why I usually don't fly at events with hard runways.
Old 10-20-2013, 08:23 AM
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If you have to fly from pavement, add a piece of rubber tubing to the tail skid,(like automotive type hose) it will help you with that rear end getting squirrely.
Old 10-20-2013, 09:15 AM
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abufletcher
 
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Do you actually have more ground loops and nose overs on pavement? Or just more damage when it does inevitably happen? WWI aircraft were notoriously unforgiving of cross-winds and I would imagine that's more of a factor than landing on pavement. Personally, I don't have any experience flying on either pavement OR grass...since my fields have always just been a combination of dirt and/or weedy stubble.

Last edited by abufletcher; 10-20-2013 at 09:24 AM.
Old 10-20-2013, 09:31 AM
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Eindecker_pilot
 
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Originally Posted by abufletcher View Post
Do you actually have more ground loops and nose overs on pavement? Or just more damage when it does inevitably happen? WWI aircraft were notoriously unforgiving of cross-winds and I would imagine that's more of a factor than landing on pavement. Personally, I don't have any experience flying on either pavement OR grass...since my fields have always just been a combination of dirt and/or weedy stubble.
ground loops are more frequent. The hard tail skid doesn't get enough friction on asphalt to let the plane track straight so there's not much resistance to spinning around. Grass is so much easier.
Old 10-20-2013, 09:35 AM
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Steve Percifield
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yep, what greg said
Old 10-20-2013, 09:49 AM
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abufletcher
 
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If that's the case, the suggestion of adding a bit of rubber hose sounds good. It seems to me that a "free-castering" tail-wheel would only make things worse. And would a fixed tail-wheel be any better than a skid with a rubber pad? I mean, if the goal is to stop sideways motion of the skid, there doesn't really seem to be any purpose for the wheel.
Old 10-20-2013, 10:50 AM
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Eindecker_pilot
 
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Originally Posted by abufletcher View Post
If that's the case, the suggestion of adding a bit of rubber hose sounds good. It seems to me that a "free-castering" tail-wheel would only make things worse. And would a fixed tail-wheel be any better than a skid with a rubber pad? I mean, if the goal is to stop sideways motion of the skid, there doesn't really seem to be any purpose for the wheel.
correct, mine is fixed to the rudder. It works very well but doesn't look as scale as the rubber hose technique.
Old 10-20-2013, 12:42 PM
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2walla
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Ohio superstar tailwheel... You can add a small fairing and it will look like a skid..
Old 10-20-2013, 01:14 PM
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gyro!
Old 10-20-2013, 02:34 PM
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cocobear
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My.02, Barry hit the nail on the head, A piece of rubber tubing is magic.
Old 10-20-2013, 02:47 PM
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Tampaflyer
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so , no intention of learning to master your aircraft huh.

sounds like a lot of throttle jammers to me.

if you can't take off on the runway, almost all have an area next to the runway to allow you to take off. As I remember JEFCO had lots of area past the runways to take off the plane.

and always think.. take off and land into the wind... that's why WW1 airfields were round.
Old 10-20-2013, 02:58 PM
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cocobear
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Typically, paved runways are not round. Mastery of the craft is always required on pavement
Old 10-20-2013, 03:00 PM
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Tampaflyer
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they weren't paved back then either
Old 10-20-2013, 04:40 PM
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I agree with Tampa. I have flown at Jefco and Love Air. Off pavement is not forgiving. I have a lot of experience with my 1/3 scale D-8, and thought I was comfortable with it, but could not get it off the ground at Ft. Collins on pavement.
I ground looped so bad, I scraped BOTH wingtips, and still taxied it back. I have flown a lot of different types of ww1 planes. The D-8 is the hardest. Fokker D-7 is the easiest. (IMO)
It does not matter on the runway direction with a ww1 plane. If there is any wind, take off and land into the wind. It is that simple. Remember, DOWN elevator to take off and to turns in taxi mode. Full up at the exact point it will fall out of the sky, upon landing. I don't 3 point my D-8. Learn to 3 point your planes on grass with about a 10 mph wind.
LEARN YOUR PLANE AND IT'S HABITS.
Most ww1 planes don't have a fixed vertical stab to help you with the takeoffs and landings. Pick what you like and go for it. GYSOT!
I also fly ultralight aircraft, and I agree... I LIKE GRASS WAY BETTER THAN ANYTHING ELSE... I like to land on it too.

Rebel
Old 10-20-2013, 04:42 PM
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abufletcher
 
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Originally Posted by Tampaflyer View Post
they weren't paved back then either
Dave's point was that back then, because of round aerodromes, there were no "crosswind" takeoffs or landings.
Old 10-20-2013, 05:32 PM
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TSHARK203
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Originally Posted by abufletcher View Post
Dave's point was that back then, because of round aerodromes, there were no "crosswind" takeoffs or landings.
Plus they had wing walkers. There was no taxing around as we do with the rc birds. The guys on the ground guided the plane around an pointed you where you needed to go. WWI birds also seem to pick up more speed as well on a paved runway. I always opt for grass with mine as well.
George
Old 10-21-2013, 05:35 AM
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lackeyma
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Add a gyro, which will help tremendously. Turn it on for take-offs, then turn off. Reverse procedure for landing.
Old 10-21-2013, 05:59 AM
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I have two flights on my first WWI plane (1/6 BASU Tommy). So far it's pretty easy....

Take off: Wait until no one if flying. Carry the plane to any point at the field (grass, dirt, runway, parking lot) that will allow takeoff DIRECTLY into the wind.

Landing: Bring her in with a bit of power, touchdown, wait for her to nose over (preferably in the grass), then go get your plane.

Simple
Old 10-21-2013, 06:01 AM
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Flying a WW1 aircraft from a paved surface is not Scale.

I've seen some man carrying WW1 reproductions fly. None of them ever touched paved surfaces, except when being pushed into a hangar after the show.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OYe9O-Dnps
Old 10-21-2013, 06:02 AM
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abufletcher
 
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Originally Posted by Wagon1 View Post
I have two flights on my first WWI plane (1/6 BASU Tommy). So far it's pretty easy....

Take off: Wait until no one if flying. Carry the plane to any point at the field (grass, dirt, runway, parking lot) that will allow takeoff DIRECTLY into the wind.

Landing: Bring her in with a bit of power, touchdown, wait for her to nose over (preferably in the grass), then go get your plane.

Simple
Sounds like you already have a firm understanding of the realities of flying WWI RC models!
Old 10-21-2013, 06:03 AM
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Joe Westrich
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It's not a gyro need or a proficiency issue (unless you are not proficient). When your tailskid is on the pavement during run out from a landing, you can be at a point of little or no control with your rudder. I often see the plane pushed one direction from a crosswind and the rudder is in full deflection in the opposite direction. The result is a pavement ground loop. A gyro does not help when your rudder is not working.

You can try to hold the tail off the ground as long as possible by using a little down elevator during runout. This will give you a slower ground speed before your tail drops. Your rudder will be effective for a longer period of time. It may not rid you of the ground loop completely but it will occur at a slower speed..... saving the wingtips. This is only slightly helpful and if the crosswind is significant then you may just want to wait it out or find some grass to land on. I have not done the rubber tube on the tailskid but it seems like it would help. Your tailskid is skidding sideways with a crosswind so it should stifle this unwanted movement.

With all of that said, it really isn't that much fun to fly a WWI aircraft off of pavement at all, especially with a crosswind.
Old 10-21-2013, 10:32 AM
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Those of us who fly full scale taildraggers would much rather use the grass next to the runway for landing. It's generally "more forgiving." You are less likely to bounce if you misjudge your perfect full-stall three-point landing. Steering seems to be more precise. Fewer ground loops. Just don't forget to keep the stick in your belly through the roll-out. Of course, all of us should be competent enough to handle the pavement, but in certain airplanes and under certain conditions, the grass is just easier.

Steve.

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