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Palmer 1/4 Scale BD-5 and Misc. Info

Old 12-05-2005, 11:39 PM
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sfsjkid
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Default Palmer 1/4 Scale BD-5 and Misc. Info

Alright guys/gals,

This will be my first build thread! I'm not sure how much response will be generated, but hopefully you'll all get me motivated on this project again and offer some suggestions on any problem areas. At the very least, if you are also inclined to build a BD-5, you'll have more info on the Palmer version, and I'll be able to put my little used scanner/camera to more use.

At the risk of dating myself, I first discovered the real BD-5 in Popular Science back in high school. Not knowing any better, I immediately decided that I wanted to build one. At the time, I was also messing with r/c gliders, but reality, other interests and responsibilities got in the way. I only got back into r/c planes about 3 years ago, and naturally, one that I wanted was a BD-5.

After some research, I was disappointed to find an absence of any kits. Sure, Hobby Lobby had an electric one at the time but not very scale at all. There were various slope models around, but I wanted a slimer. Even a search of RCU and RCGroups yielded very little, but someone mentioned the 1/4 scale Palmer (http://www.palmerplans.com/products/bd5d.html)!

Finding the description on Palmer's site was very encouraging, Jim Bede himself furnished drawings and the 1/4 prototype fiberglass fuselage on which this plane is based, but at the same time intimidating, for it mentioned having to machine a drive shaft. The price for the set of plans was more than my most expensive plane (plane only) but after a month going back and forth, ordered the plans.

Here are some vitals
Construction balsa, ply and spruce
Wingspan 64.5"
Length 40.6875"
Target weight (dry) 119 oz.
Wing loading 33.38 oz./sq.ft.
Recommended engine K&B .40

Yes, a K&B! The plans are somewhat dated there, along with mention of a Kraft tank, and Carl Goldberg retracts. Addtionally, some of the lettering used to designate part numbers had rubbed off the original, rendering them unintelligible. Both not major show stoppers.

So far I've cut out a majority of fuse formers, and collected a bunch of pictures. Been working on the plane on and off for the last three years. I warn ya, it may take another 3~5 years to complete!

More to follow!

BTW I'd list all of the info I found in my research, but subsequently found this site, summarizing everything. Had I found this in my original search, it would have saved me hours!

http://www.scalebd.com/kits&plans.htm
Old 12-06-2005, 10:47 PM
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Default RE: Palmer 1/4 Scale BD-5

Here are a couple of shots of the fuselage, standard sized servo in each pic for size reference. The driveshaft will be a challenge, along with cooling. There are ducts on the side of the fuse, but no airflow unless moving!
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Old 12-07-2005, 08:05 PM
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Default RE: Palmer 1/4 Scale BD-5

I will be checking in with your build. I have been considering this plan myself.

David
Old 12-07-2005, 09:19 PM
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Default RE: Palmer 1/4 Scale BD-5

I've always loved the BD5. It's one of my earliest most loved aircraft. That engine arrangement is just frightening though. I'm a glow head, but I would be converting this one to electric just to avoid a lot of headaches. I hope whatever you do works reliably because this airplane should fly very well.
Old 12-08-2005, 12:52 AM
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Default RE: Palmer 1/4 Scale BD-5

Thanks guys, I was starting to wonder if there was any interest Keep in mind though that I will be taking my time with this, just too many other projects that I want to get out first. I'll probably end up putting a lot of BD-5 related stuff I've found first, before getting to the actual building.

David, did you want a true scale plane? Just asking since there is another that doesn't require the shaft, but more of a sport plane. Haven't seen the actual plans myself but believe this may be a scan of it. Sorry, I don't have any with better resolution. Available at http://www.kitcutters.com/Nex/NexBD5.htm. Apologies if this is old info to you.

CafeenMan, I agree that the engine arrangement is frightening, not rocket science but a bit more work than normal. Great suggestion about conversion to electric. I will look into it more as I get more done. Funny, I'm a glow head too, and fly smaller electrics, but didn't put 2 and 2 together! Guess since it "so big"(?)
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Old 12-08-2005, 01:06 AM
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Default RE: Palmer 1/4 Scale BD-5

Here are some more details on the shaft. I think I may go with off the shelf components, at least then I have some idea of what the pieces are rated for. It doesn't sound like a lot of time has been put on this design, which worries me.
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Old 12-08-2005, 01:15 AM
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Default RE: Palmer 1/4 Scale BD-5 and Misc. Info

That's why nobody builds these things. You have to be a machinest or know somebody who is who also does very good work. An out-of-true shaft turning 16K in your plane is really bad thing.
Old 12-08-2005, 01:32 AM
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Default RE: Palmer 1/4 Scale BD-5 and Misc. Info

Agreed, it is scary. Fortunately, I do know an aircraft mechanic who knows a machinist or two, there are at least a couple of machinists in my club, and I've dabbled with a lathe and milling machine from time to time. As I mentioned, I do want to explore the store bought stuff first for safety though. http://sdp-si.com/index.asp has been recommended, if anyone knows of any other hardware "shops" do let me know

Here's an example of a Dornier found somewhere on the net. Also, Model Aviation had an article on a CL P-39 that someone did with shaft and water cooling! Shafts were done with boat components. I've only attached the first page since it is available on AMA's site, look for the March 1982 issue.
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Old 12-08-2005, 01:35 AM
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Default RE: Palmer 1/4 Scale BD-5 and Misc. Info

BTW the reason I changed the subject line slightly is due to the fact I want to post other BD5 stuff that I haven't seen elsewhere. Here's something for the memories, Testor's .049 CL model.

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Old 12-14-2005, 10:59 PM
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Default RE: Palmer 1/4 Scale BD-5 and Misc. Info

Here's a peanut scale version I found somewhere, one of the nicest flying BD-5's I've found to date and a 1/72 plastic model. See the links for details. I should be getting to the actual build of the Palmer soon

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...&highlight=bd5
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...&highlight=bd5



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Old 12-15-2005, 09:03 PM
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Default RE: Palmer 1/4 Scale BD-5 and Misc. Info

Once you get the kinks worked out of the model, perhaps you might build a 2nd wing for it... I recall that Jim Bede was going to produce a wide sailplane wing, and even flew it on the prototype... the idea was that one BD-5 owner could install either wing, depending on his mood for flying that day.

It might make a helluva scale powered sailplane....

Bob
Old 12-15-2005, 09:38 PM
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Default RE: Palmer 1/4 Scale BD-5 and Misc. Info

If I remember correctly, there were two versions of the BD-5 offered to the homebuilders of the time; the standard wing version and a "long" wing version. The standard short wing version turned out to be virtually uncontrollable and more than a few were lost to pilot induced osillation on takeoff. The "Long" wing version was only slightly better. It too killed some of it's pilots. The original engine was to be a Herth aircooled industial unit but it never did work right. Cooling was its downfall. After Bede went bust some guys in California developed the water coolled Honda civic conversion for it. The only ones I ever saw fly were Honda powered and Long wing versions. The BD-5J's were all short wing but I can only think of three that ever flew. I wish that I had all the money that was spent by would be builders who waited years for things that were promised "next week, next month, and just around the corner"

As for the prop shaft, you might look into a plane that was designed by a Professer and his students at the U of Minnisota or Michigan in the mid to late 60's, the name escapes me. It had a midship engine with a long hollow shaft into which steel shot was added to damp any imballance. It worked pretty well. But hey. with the new batteries and high output motors this looks like a perfect candidate for E power.

I will watch your build as the -5 has always been a favorite of mine. Its a good thing I was poor in the late 60's or I would have poured it down the rat hole that became the Bede-5.
Old 12-16-2005, 11:53 AM
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Default RE: Palmer 1/4 Scale BD-5 and Misc. Info


[quote]ORIGINAL: wascamp

If I remember correctly, there were two versions of the BD-5 offered to the homebuilders of the time; the standard wing version and a "long" wing version. The standard short wing version turned out to be virtually uncontrollable and more than a few were lost to pilot induced osillation on takeoff. The "Long" wing version was only slightly better. It too killed some of it's pilots. The original engine was to be a Herth aircooled industial unit but it never did work right. Cooling was its downfall. After Bede went bust some guys in California developed the water coolled Honda civic conversion for it. The only ones I ever saw fly were Honda powered and Long wing versions. The BD-5J's were all short wing but I can only think of three that ever flew. I wish that I had all the money that was spent by would be builders who waited years for things that were promised "next week, next month, and just around the corner"

As for the prop shaft, you might look into a plane that was designed by a Professer and his students at the U of Minnisota or Michigan in the mid to late 60's, the name escapes me. It had a midship engine with a long hollow shaft into which steel shot was added to damp any imballance. It worked pretty well. But hey. with the new batteries and high output motors this looks like a perfect candidate for E power.

I will watch your build as the -5 has always been a favorite of mine. Its a good thing I was poor in the late 60's or I would have poured it down the rat hole that became the Bede-5.


How about the Jet powererd one- I have seen the Coors Light Silver Bullet Jet fly - and it flies REALLY good - the current model turbines would fly one nice - just wish they were not so damn expensive........


Jackjet
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Old 12-16-2005, 12:16 PM
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Default RE: Palmer 1/4 Scale BD-5 and Misc. Info

Bob, Roger, Jack,

Thank you for your input! The Palmer is based on the long wing version, though it doesn't look long enough for sailplane use. Depending on how the thing flies, I think I might build a non-scale big wing so I can thermal Not commiting to e-power yet, but that would be another reason to forgo glow. Sorry, turbine is just not an option for me, unless I win the lotto. Besides, it would take too long for me to get a wavier. If memory serves correctly, very few Hirth planes made it into the air and the most succesful were the jet versions, according to at least one web site. Hopefully I won't have any vibration problems as the real one did, but I will look into the professor's work. Only things that scare me about the steel shot is possible RF noise problems and what would happen should my shaft be weak. And yes, I'm glad I didn't get into the real build either!-)

Frank
Old 12-16-2005, 02:19 PM
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Default RE: Palmer 1/4 Scale BD-5 and Misc. Info

I have read several posts, generally talking about a P-39, but it seems a driveshaft on a single cylinder motor that turns as fast as a model engine has several problems created by the power pulses. I have not tried it, so you may want to research it.
Also, you may want take anything on Palmers plans with a "grain of salt", proven by his projected weight of a completed model. It has been reported on more than one RCU post, and on other boards, that most of his designs were never prototyped, and I have heard he does not fly models.
Old 12-16-2005, 03:57 PM
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Default RE: Palmer 1/4 Scale BD-5 and Misc. Info

I purchased a nice set of BD-5 plans from one of the British R/C Magazines websites a few years ago....it uses a .40 engine in pusher config (no internal drive shaft). I can dig up my plans if you are interested. The outline is very scale in appearance.

Andrew
Old 12-16-2005, 04:05 PM
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Default RE: Palmer 1/4 Scale BD-5 and Misc. Info

Hi Terry,

Thanks for letting me know about the P-39, I'll look into the problems when the time is appropriate. As for Palmer not flying his designs I tend to agree with you from conversations at the field and from this particular plan. This BD-5 was built up as a fiberglass model and appears to have been flown at least on a limited basis, which doesn't lead to confidence in the prop shaft setup as presented. Also, the nose retract path doesn't match up with the action of the actual retract etc. I figure I have a start at least, I know there will be problems to be solved.
Old 12-16-2005, 04:12 PM
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Default RE: Palmer 1/4 Scale BD-5 and Misc. Info

Andrew,

Could you look at post #5? I think the picture there is of the Nexus plans you mention. I'm not sure since I downloaded it from the 'net and no caption was available. I've been tempted to order those plans just to get used to the handling characteristics of the high prop design before building the "real" thing, but then again the practical side of me tells me I won't have the time

Thanks!
Old 12-16-2005, 04:16 PM
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Default RE: Palmer 1/4 Scale BD-5 and Misc. Info

BTW one other "problem" with the design is that you need to make your own spinner in order to end up with a true scale plane.
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Old 03-29-2006, 10:18 PM
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Default RE: Palmer 1/4 Scale BD-5 and Misc. Info

sfsjkid,

Any progress to report on your BD-5D project? I had been following this thread with interest but lost it somehow. I just found it again.

Joe
Old 03-30-2006, 12:05 AM
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Default RE: Palmer 1/4 Scale BD-5 and Misc. Info

Ahh...well..., you see, it was this way...........

Sorry Joe, no progress so far. I picked up a Top Flite GS P-51 ARF real cheap and been working on that since it will be completed faster. As I mentioned before, I was hoping starting this thread would motivate me to start work on the BD-5 regularly, which it did for a time, but from the responses, I didn't think there was big audience for the build.

I do intend to carry on, I definitely won't give up, so your patience is appreciated. I do appreciate your follow-up. Are you building one also?
Old 03-30-2006, 02:39 AM
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Default RE: Palmer 1/4 Scale BD-5 and Misc. Info

I hadn't responded but I have been subscribed to your thread with great interest. Something about the unique little BD-5 I have always liked and the jet version in the old James Bond movie is too cool.

Back in the 1970's I bought the MH BD-5 1/2 kit designed for Cox 049. Unfortunately my model was crushed during construction and thrown away. I recently found another MH kit which I am saving for a future project.

A 1/4 scale BD-5 would be super impressive and gain much attention on the tarmac. In the future I'd like to build one too.
Old 03-30-2006, 12:25 PM
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Default RE: Palmer 1/4 Scale BD-5 and Misc. Info

That is good to hear. I didn't realize there was a slilent "majority" around either. When I get my second, well maybe my sixth wind(?), I'll keep everyone posted!

I'm not familiar with the MH BD, is it an all balsa kit?
Old 03-30-2006, 01:08 PM
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Default RE: Palmer 1/4 Scale BD-5 and Misc. Info

The MH, Montrose Hobby BD-5 kit had balsa fuselage with three piece foam wing. Wingspan 43" and a clear canopy was included. No full size plans, only assembly instructions with building diagrams.
Old 03-30-2006, 01:13 PM
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Default RE: Palmer 1/4 Scale BD-5 and Misc. Info

Just stumbled on to this thread. There is a full scale BD-5 on display at the Qakland aircraft Museum. Have you though of maybe going electric? I think that would solve lots of problems with cooling and even simplify the drive shaft if not completly eliminate it. I was thinking if the shaft is nesessary it could be a CF tube with R/C car CV joints at each end. Lots of those could be found that are set up for a 4mm shaft that just happens to be the same size shaft the electric motors of this size would have.


Shawn

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