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do arfs belong in scale forum?

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RC Scale Aircraft Discuss rc scale aircraft here (for giant scale see category above)
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yes its a scale airplane
56.13%
no its a stand WAY off look alike
43.87%
Voters: 155. You may not vote on this poll

do arfs belong in scale forum?

Old 11-26-2006, 01:31 PM
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BlackSheep-1
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Default RE: do arfs belong in scale forum?

What was the question again?
Old 11-26-2006, 01:54 PM
  #27  
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Default RE: do arfs belong in scale forum?

I don't know anything about competiton and will in all likelihood never compete so I'm not really interested in that side of the argument. I will say though that I've been a bit disillusioned of late with some of the models competing at Top Gun. Oh they all LOOK great. But when I see three or four F-100s or Sabre jets all up there in the top 20, I say something has got to be wrong. For my way of thinking every darn model at Top Gun ought to be a self-designed, scratch-build, one of a kind, original.

But then that's just me.
Old 11-26-2006, 05:23 PM
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Default RE: do arfs belong in scale forum?

Abufletcher,
Once again, I agree with you. However, make that rule and less there will only be about 1 to 6 entries.
Old 11-26-2006, 07:15 PM
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Default RE: do arfs belong in scale forum?


ORIGINAL: eagledancer

maybe its just me, lets do a poll to see what everyone thinks
do arfs belong in scale forum or not?
I’m not sure that I understand the poll question. RCU has a forum exclusively devoted to folks that buy pre-built aircraft at http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/forumid_75/tt.htm If you are you asking about people that may accidentally post in the wrong forum you can use the report link on the post and have them moved to the correct forum.
Old 11-26-2006, 07:22 PM
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Default RE: do arfs belong in scale forum?


ORIGINAL: 8178


ORIGINAL: eagledancer

maybe its just me, lets do a poll to see what everyone thinks
do arfs belong in scale forum or not?
I’m not sure that I understand the poll question. RCU has a forum exclusively devoted to folks that buy pre-built aircraft at http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/forumid_75/tt.htm If you are you asking about people that may accidentally post in the wrong forum you can use the report link on the post and have them moved to the correct forum.
Not trying to put words in his mouth, but the posts that this poll is referencing are not accidental. There are those who for one reason or another think that just because they bought an ARF that kinda-sorta looks like a scale airplane, they should be posting in this forum that is dedicated to scale models. To me, calling an ARF anything, "Scale", is kinda like putting red silk panties on a spotted Poland-China Sow and trying to pass her off as a Go-Go dancer. It just don't wash.

Bill, AMA 4720
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If that don't bring em outta the woodwork, I don't know what will.
Old 11-26-2006, 07:53 PM
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Default RE: do arfs belong in scale forum?

I like to give people the benefit of doubt because there are a lot of new folks on RCU so it could be accidental. I wouldn’t think anyone would post stuff about their pre-built aircraft in a forum that has absolutely incredible museum quality work like this as the “scale standard bench mark”. http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_5029692/tm.htm
Old 11-26-2006, 07:56 PM
  #32  
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Default RE: do arfs belong in scale forum?


ORIGINAL: 8178

I like to give people the benefit of doubt because there are a lot of new folks on RCU so it could be accidental. I wouldn’t think anyone would post stuff about their pre-build aircraft in a forum that has absolutely incredible museum quality work like this as the “scale standard bench mark”. http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_5029692/tm.htm
Yeah, they do, and they are pretty much militant about it. Also in the kitbuilder forum as well. Think I'm wrong? Look at what has happened to the giant scale forum. Virtually nothing but 37% and 40% ARF's.

Bill, AMA 4720
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Old 11-26-2006, 10:19 PM
  #33  
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Default RE: do arfs belong in scale forum?

quote:

ORIGINAL: 8178

I like to give people the benefit of doubt because there are a lot of new folks on RCU so it could be accidental. I wouldn’t think anyone would post stuff about their pre-build aircraft in a forum that has absolutely incredible museum quality work like this as the “scale standard bench mark”. http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_5029692/tm.htm


Yeah, they do, and they are pretty much militant about it. Also in the kitbuilder forum as well. Think I'm wrong? Look at what has happened to the giant scale forum. Virtually nothing but 37% and 40% ARF's.

Bill, AMA 4720
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that is the main reasion i no longer go to the giant forum, and that is all i like to build. but i also like building scale and it just toasts me to have to sort through all the ARFs here. and if you say something talk about a flame war! anymore i am spending less and less time here on rcu and more on rcsb at least there i dont see any arf junk. dont get me wrong there is nothing wrong with arfs but keep them where they belong (yes i do own 1 of em but wont buy another one) i have yet to see a arf that is going to last any length of time.
Old 11-26-2006, 10:27 PM
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Default RE: do arfs belong in scale forum?

I like to build scale. I have seen some pretty nice arf scale planes.
The only scale item that I think should be kept out of this forum is the scale that resides in the bathroom. That is not a true scale. It always reads higher than it is supposed to!
(Just for humor!)
I think that scale arf aircraft and their modifications and methods of doing so would help many of us. There is always something to be learned. My 2 cents.
Old 11-26-2006, 10:58 PM
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Default RE: do arfs belong in scale forum?

ORIGINAL: eagledancer
i am spending less and less time here on rcu and more on rcsb
RCU and RCSB are both great places and both are worth visiting frequently. The build threads on RCSB often reach epic proportion going on for 30+ pages and sometimes spanning multiple years. My own Snipe build thread is a bit more "RCSB style" than the typical RCU builds -- though there are some exceptions.

Personally, I prefer the casualness of RCU and the easier and faster interface. It's NOT where I would typically go to learn new scale building tips however. Working through a good RCSB thread, like Bob's SE5a thread or Donnie Coe's Camel build, can be a serious learning experience. I sometimes feel I should be taking notes.

Also I would never post a random one-off (scale) question like how to do WWI hinges or what's the best way to get PC10 on RCSB. It's not really a place for dialog. RCU is much more conversational.

If the casualness of RCU means that a few newcomers end up occasionaly posting their ARF photos and queries, that's a price I'm willing to pay.
Old 11-26-2006, 11:42 PM
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Default RE: do arfs belong in scale forum?


ORIGINAL: sebo

I like to build scale. I have seen some pretty nice arf scale planes.
The only scale item that I think should be kept out of this forum is the scale that resides in the bathroom. That is not a true scale. It always reads higher than it is supposed to!
(Just for humor!)
I think that scale arf aircraft and their modifications and methods of doing so would help many of us. There is always something to be learned. My 2 cents.
I agree. This is the scale forum, and any scale is fine by me.
What really grabs me is the arrogance of some guys, there is already a forum just for kitbuilders, no arfs. They can go hang out there if they like and not have to deal with arfs and rightly tell the arf posts to go to other forums. But no, they have to keep running around trying to get all the other forums they frequent to send the arf guys to their own bathrooms and sit at the back of the bus. This is the second time in the last few weeks that this garbage has come up. The many varied ideas of what should be allowed in here would count most of those builders out. If scale fidelity is the criteria and only 100% scale is allowed then few zirolis, or pica kits, no top flite or meister scale and few others. The same few yahoos going around with holier than thou attitudes trying to belittle arf builders. The funny thing is that few of the quality scale builders get in on it. If you have to be the designer and scratchbuilder then few posts in here at all.
The poll itself was a dead giveaway. "no its a stand WAY off look alike"
Well this arf is very scale, better built than ninety percent of all kit built planes I have ever seen. Now it is more scale than most planes you will see around, so should it be allowed, or is this not about the plane being scale? is it about those same few ego maniacs who because they glue a few extra sticks together are sure that they live on a higher plane than someone who just actually loves scale planes, and does not worry how they are built. I have yet to meet someone who thinks that they have done as much work in an arf as a kit built version of the same plane so who cares. The only whines I hear are from the odd builder who feels a desperate need to put them down.
Again, if you only want to congregate with kitbuilders then go to the kitbuilder forum, if you want to congregate with scale aircraft lovers then stay here and enjoy them all to different degrees. If you want a kit only scale forum, then ask for one to be started.
By the way, if loudest protestors would put some of their work in the gallery, we would be able to see the level of scale fidelity and quality we should aspire to that would make us want to detract so loudly from the thousands of decent scale and other rc aircraft lovers out there.
Good Luck
Paul
good luck
Paul
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Old 11-27-2006, 02:09 AM
  #37  
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Default RE: do arfs belong in scale forum?

Voted yes because who is more an RC scale scale modeller? The guy who bought an ARF scale model & flys it every weekend or the guy who painstakingly builds a great scale model from scratch & never flys it? Discussion is going on in Australia (and I would bet in a lot of other places around the world) about how can ARF's be included in some sort of scale competition.

Like it or not ARF's are not going away. They are now looking like the point at which the average Joe begins to become involved in scale flying so if the established scale organisers cannot accomodate them somewhere where else are the future scale flyers going to come from? The hope is the ARF flyers will become interested enough to actually build something. - John.
Old 11-27-2006, 02:46 AM
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Default RE: do arfs belong in scale forum?

I agree with the points made by both Paul and John. There are indeed a number of ARFs now available that are a good deal more scale than some of the perennially popular "scale" kits we regularly see built here. And there are some truly hideous ARFs too. There is no logically clean line between ARFs and "builds" along the axis of scale. And is a "scale-builder" to be held in higher regard than a "scale flyer?" I hope not. I admire both.

Besides, even most kit-builders today rely on a range of "pre-build" products which in the past might have been done by the builder by hand. Case in point being WB machine guns and wheels. I love'em and would hate to have to do without them or scratch-build them each and every time. How about pre-printed lozenge fabric for that DVII or $400+ dollar Robart gear for that "scratch built" Spitfire? Of the full cockpit kit people buy for their F-16s. Or that custom aircraft-specific metal spinner which in the past might have been scratch-built of balsa? Or the highly details set of Cub landing gear that modelers uncomfortable with metal work can happily bolt onto the kit-built cubs? Some kits do a lot more of the work for the modeler than other kits. Does this make them ARFish? There's just no end to this.

BTW, I have posted questions about my Kyosho Me109 ARF on this forum. Primarily because this is where I know people and those people have the knowledge to answer the kinds of questions I asked (about the operation and modification of mechanical retracts). To stay healthy a forum needs to be line an normal community. You the people and topics at the center, but you also have the people and things on the edge of the community and all of them play a necessary part.
Old 11-27-2006, 06:52 AM
  #39  
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Default RE: do arfs belong in scale forum?


ORIGINAL: 8178

I like to give people the benefit of doubt because there are a lot of new folks on RCU so it could be accidental. I wouldn’t think anyone would post stuff about their pre-built aircraft in a forum that has absolutely incredible museum quality work like this as the “scale standard bench mark”. http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_5029692/tm.htm
Think that I was kiding about how militant they are??? Read post #36. These guys think that they should be able to be in any forum. That's all I have to say about that.

Bill, AMA 4720
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Old 11-27-2006, 07:58 AM
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Default RE: do arfs belong in scale forum?

I didn't vote because I don't think BARKS (Arf arf...lol) don't belong with the "from the ground up" scratch build. I build in many mediums, wood, fiberglass, composites, metals. Each has a learning curve and an acquired skill.

Flying on the other hand only takes a plank and radio (sorry I fly scale helis too). Why not use a BARKER to thrash around and just have fun and keep that special lady going nicely in the shop. I have helicopters I fly all the time because they are the 'garbage' aircraft and save the high end good stuff for perfect days. I do not compete anymore, but I do judge.

As far as competition, BARKS should have their own class, because all you are really seeing the pilot do is fly and add some goodies to scale it out. Not at all fair to the person who spends an entire year or more on a fine detailed aircraft or helicopter. Helicopters allow BARKERS to compete in major competitions. They have enough inherent visual flaws they are not a threat to any serious super scale event. On the other hand they do place well in fun scale.

Some of us like to build. Some of us like to fly. Some of us can't build, some can. No one forces you to click on a link that is a BARKER link. Skip it. I find I get more good information in the scratch forum. Regardless BARKS have increased the folks in the hobby, decreased the cost by volume on a bunch of other stuff. They are indeed helping the scratch builder and not aware of it. Kinda like being in the grocery store and seeing some gross thing with 72 kids hanging off of her and you NEED to go down that aisle. Sometimes you gotta go around and come in from the other side.
Jack
Old 11-27-2006, 08:08 AM
  #41  
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Default RE: do arfs belong in scale forum?

ORIGINAL: Stickbuilder



Think that I was kiding about how militant they are??? Read post #36. These guys think that they should be able to be in any forum. That's all I have to say about that.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1


Of course they should be allowed in any forum, except for the ones that are specifically for kits, or non- arfs. You are really are out there. Militant, you call me militant, you march around telling everyone how we need to toss arf builders out of every forum you deem necessary, you have posted five times in this thread touting your point of view and I posted once, start threads and polls about how low the arf builder is. It seems to be a central thread of your life and you attack everyone who disagrees, and then you call me militant. I must admit, I think your point of view is crazy, not a little different but totally off the wall. I understand pride in building and how builders want rule set in competitions where building is a factor. I even see how you take pride in building a kit and count ithe skill level higher than building an arf.
What I dont get is what stops an arf from being a scale model.
Make a list and then we will go from there.
Tell us what makes a scale model.
Is it just the scale outline.
The finish
scale details
Come on, just give us a list, why they are not scale.
Whether it is built to from a composite kit by some Top Gun contender, an old outdated wood close scale kit by some militant arf bigot, an arf that was built by some factory worker and assembled by a beginner who loves flying scale planes or by Santas elves out of Christmas tree wood and pixie dust. Scale is still scale and the same standards of being scale can obviously apply.
Come on just make a list of what makes a plane scale or not.
Thats all.
Good Luck
Paul
Old 11-27-2006, 05:37 PM
  #42  
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Default RE: do arfs belong in scale forum?

So, what is the poll for? Who is reading it? What will be done with it? Why must the ARF'ers continue to dredge the pond? OK, so ARF's will soon be like "Real" aircraft out of the box. The person who buys it will be able to proudly proclaim, "I bought this scale P-40 with all the goodies, to include panel lines, rivets, screws, scale retracts and a scale Pratt & Whitney engine". He'll go on to describe how the Warbird of his dreams has all the scale details he could never possibly have completed himself, as he did not have the time, the patience or the know how, but he did have the money to buy this one. There was once a time when being patient and paying attention to detail while trying to reach a level of master builder was considered a great achievement. Now, it's merely the thought of how fast can it be completed and put into the air with as little effort as possible. How can anyone take pride in something they did not do, but merely bought, completed some final assembly, maybe added some detail and flew it? I don't mind if there is a seperate forum for ARF Scale Aircraft, but don't tread on those of us, (Don't Tread On ME!) who wish to do things the "Old Fashioned" way.
Old 11-27-2006, 06:30 PM
  #43  
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Default RE: do arfs belong in scale forum?

Ever heard of plastic scale models? Do you think they banned all the ones at contests with the pre-moulded kit as a basis for the finished product? There's often little skill in the basic airframe build if truth be told, it's the application of detail/finish/markings/weathering that sets a true scale model apart from a "toy".

Personally I find some of the ARF overhauls MUCH more impressive than some of those glossy warbirds with spark plugs and mufflers hanging out that seem so prevalent in certain circles.

Who cares who built the basic box underneath, it's the finishing that counts. Live and let live.

My 2c

Cam
Old 11-27-2006, 07:18 PM
  #44  
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Default RE: do arfs belong in scale forum?

One question back to you...a very simple one...Did you build it?

Bill, AMa 4720
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Old 11-27-2006, 07:43 PM
  #45  
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Default RE: do arfs belong in scale forum?

I reckon this has been said before, this is an instant gratification society today. Patience is gone and time is wasted (ie not wasted on family and such) but wasted on the tv, wasted at wal-mart etc. I am what you would call a "young" scale bulider. 38 years of age at allot of scale comps puts me as the baby of the show in most cases. This is worriesome to me that the skill of building is dying. The same way the younger generations history knowledge is dying When and who attacked pearl harbor). I guess what I am trying to say is don't stop at the arf, learn to fly with it but look at the future and knowledge and excitement you will gain from building. I even take shortcuts with a design using kit cutters (this will even bring up a debate) but once again the time thing does come into the picture. There's my 100 rivets.
Old 11-27-2006, 08:26 PM
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Default RE: do arfs belong in scale forum?

Ever heard of plastic scale models? Do you think they banned all the ones at contests with the pre-moulded kit as a basis for the finished product? There's often little skill in the basic airframe build if truth be told, it's the application of detail/finish/markings/weathering that sets a true scale model apart from a "toy".

Personally I find some of the ARF overhauls MUCH more impressive than some of those glossy warbirds with spark plugs and mufflers hanging out that seem so prevalent in certain circles.

Who cares who built the basic box underneath, it's the finishing that counts. Live and let live.

My 2c

Cam
the box underneath does make a huge differance, i have several planes that are over 16 years old and still going strong, when you can pick and choose what wood/glue to use in each area and how you fit those pieces together, yep it sure does make a huge differance. if you can afford to buy a new fleet each year then go for it, but some of us choose not to. there are those of us that really enjoy doing it right! and i have the fleet to prove it. and yes the oldest one in my fleet is 20 years old, its next up for a recovering job then it will be ready to fly again and again and again.
i dont condem the the arfs, it is a way to get in the air, but lets not overlook the fact that there needs to be places for the people that wants to learn the old ways, this is one of the few forum that is for that, yes every kit out there can be reworked to a more scale apperance, i have a ikon monocoupe that was modified from the 90a version to the 90al, its 16 years old, still flying very well. what i do see at the fields is the arfs falling apart from wrong glues, poor quality materials ect.
yes arfs have a place, get people in the air, but dont confuse a quick makeover with a well built kit.
Old 11-27-2006, 08:27 PM
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Default RE: do arfs belong in scale forum?



What is a scale model? I'm not sure that I can put it all in words, but I'll give it a try.

1. Scale outline: (not just profile, but in wing to tail surface ratio, and correct dihedral and cross sections).

2. Scale fidelity: (does the finish closely replicate the original full scale not only in color, but texture)(if the full scale was covered in doped linnen, does the finish replicate that, the same goes for metal skin...etc)

3. The control surfaces should be controlled in the scale fashion. If the full scale used pull-pull on all flight controls the model should appear to do so as well (note I didn't say they had to be controlled the same way, just that they should appear to do so).

4. Any visible area of the model should be finished (cockpit included). Are the various controls appearent? Rudder pedals, stick, throttle, mixture, breakers, switches, seat/s, belts and harnesses etc. Are the rivets that are in evidence on the full scale the same type on the model (flush, or standard)? Are there the correct number of them? Are the inspection covers and hatches from the full scale evident on the model? Are the little fairings for the control cables included on your model? What about pitot tubes? The list can go on and on. It even includes placards and warning stencils.

5. Is the engine completely hidden within the cowl? There should be no protrusions that were not evident on the full scale.

6. Landing gear. Does the model replicate the full scale both in gear type, leg design, wheel type, and in the case of retracts, do the gear doors completely hide the gear when retracted, likewise does the well have the appropriate scale detail showing hydraulic lines, trunions, open structure, or did you just use the supplied smooth plastic tubs? In the case of fixed gear, especially those that are from duraluminum an the full scale, is the correct airfoil shape followed, or is it just a raw piece of metal stock with the blunt edges, and a continuous cross section front to back?

7. Did you mount your cowl in a scale manner? Are your fasteners visible externally, or do they look like the real deal?

8. Flying: Does your model fly in a scale like manner, or will it hover? More important can you fly it within the scale envelope?

9. Propeller: Does your model fly with a scale appearing propeller, or do you have to fly it with something that looks out of place?

10. External accoutrements: In the case of flying wires for Biplanes, or tail braces, do you make the attachment points as per the full scale, or do you use some kind of store bought clevises that are more at home on a trainer's pushrods?

11. Fueling points, are your fueling/defueling points hidden, or does it use the scale location for attaching your fuel probe, or do you simply use a fuel dot located in the exterior of the cowl?

Radio switches: Do you have your on/off switch mounted externally where it is visible, or do you have it hidden behind a hatch, or use an antenna as a switch?

12: Standing 50 feet away from your model, can you tell that it's a model, or could it be a full scale that is further away?

13: and most of all, can you honestly say that you are the builder of the model?

These are but a few of the things that set a scale model apart from the rest of the pack. I hold no animosities toward those of you who enjoy ARF's I am in the process of acquiring a 40% aerobat for myself. Will the guys ever see or hear of it in the scale forum, or the giant scale forum? Not from me, they won't. it will not ever be a scale model, just another ARF (albeit one with many thousands of dollars tied up in it) Why am I getting it? Cause I want it, and can afford it.

Bill, AMA 4720
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Old 11-27-2006, 10:33 PM
  #48  
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Default RE: do arfs belong in scale forum?

What on earth does number 13 have to do with it.
You are a funny guy.
thanks for the laugh.
good luck
Paul
Old 11-27-2006, 10:59 PM
  #49  
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Default RE: do arfs belong in scale forum?

There are two forms of RC airplane models. One is scale. The other is sport. All models will fall into one of these categories. How can you tell what your models is ? Its easy. If your model is a miniature replica of a real airplane, then its scale. If your model doesn't look like anything flown in the full scale world, then its a sport model. A 4 Star is an example of a sport model. There are no real 4 Stars at the airport.
ARF or kit or scratch or witchcraft, it doesn't matter how you obtain your airplane, if you are interested in learning or sharing techniques used to achieve scale effects, this is an appropriate forum to do so.
Old 11-27-2006, 11:34 PM
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dragoonpvw
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Default RE: do arfs belong in scale forum?


ORIGINAL: PilotFighter

There are two forms of RC airplane models. One is scale. The other is sport. All models will fall into one of these categories. How can you tell what your models is ? Its easy. If your model is a miniature replica of a real airplane, then its scale. If your model doesn't look like anything flown in the full scale world, then its a sport model. A 4 Star is an example of a sport model. There are no real 4 Stars at the airport.
ARF or kit or scratch or witchcraft, it doesn't matter how you obtain your airplane, if you are interested in learning or sharing techniques used to achieve scale effects, this is an appropriate forum to do so.
Precisely

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