OldScaleGuy

My Feedback: (2)

Jack Stafford Models Announces Closing


http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/foru...smode_1/tt.htm

Boomerang1

The world is changing. Now it's a matter of 'how cheap?' not 'how good?' Not just modelling products. What happens when everything is really cheap but no one has a job to buy anything? I never had the pleasure of building one of your kits but saw many built by others. Good luck in the future. - John.

Helijack

We as a society have done this to ourselves.

Least expensive for the customer, highest profit markup for the retailer....Cheap foreign labor.

All these Unions, minimum wages, strikes, discounting, will eventually come up and bite this country and surprise many many folks who think all is fine and dandy. A sign of the times, and not just in the modeling industry.

Rember when WalMart's biggest phrase was made in America? No more. The almight Dollar means more.

SoCalSal

My Feedback: (16)

Well now, This is just the start of it. But I hope it will turn around someday. Most ARF's are cheap because we as American's can't see the Chinese kids working for penny's an hour to put these things out. Also the quest for instant gratifacation is a big factor as well. And the companys that distribute and sell these things are after one thing , $$$$$$$$$$. They don't give a damn about anyone but themselves and how much profit the can sqeeze out of some poor people in another country because they can't see them. If I can't see it it must not be there.
It is just like the old saying , "you get what you pay for" These people who buy these products will wake up one day without a job and wounder why? Well we can get it made cheaper off shore so we don't need you anymore SORRY!! What do you want us to do??? pay you a living wage to assemble this things here in the U.S.? We can't do that because it would drive the cost up to the point people might just want to build them on their own. This goes for everthing that is produced in this country. If the owners of these company's can get fat by cutting out your jobs and sending the jobs off shore then they will. They don't give a hoot about you or your famliey

If you quit buying these cheap products, sooner or later it will stop. Say to your self..to hell with these model suppliers that import cheap off shore products. Why should I support them?? They don't support the U.S. labor force. They don't care weather you or your kids can eat, live in a desent home, all they care about is their needs not yours.

Boycott these suppliers and hobby shops that sell this crap just don't buy them. If the ARF is built in the U.S then buy it, sure it may cost a few dollars more. Or better yet take the time and learn how to build from a kit or scratch, expand your thinking, it may surprize you haw much fun it is to build. Do it with your kids, show them how to use their God given talent. Teach them the value of working for themselves to acheive a goal, not just plopping down the cash 'cause it is the easy way out. What better way of stimulating your brain and spending quality time with your kids then building one of the kits out there. I do it all the time with my son and we have a ball coming up with ways to improve the design of the kits we build. Don't give me the " I don't have time to build" answer, You found time to fly it, you can find time to build it. If your just scared to even try to build the make sure you buy ONLY AMERICAN MADE PRODUCTS this includes ARF's
Am I mad about Jack Stafford closeing his doors?????? hell yes and those of you who have bought off shore ARF's or kits should be too. Your selling the American Chraftsman out.
Maybe when you loose your job to the off shore pruducers you will wake up, but it will be too late then. Sure it costs more to buy an American made kit or Arf but you get what you pay for in many more ways then just cost. Think About it.

[>:]

Scar

My Feedback: (3)

Guys,

The website ad says " All internet and phone sales will cease as of December 31, 2006."

You still have a day or two to order from them. Get out your checkbooks!

Best wishes,
Dave Olson

w0mbat

My Feedback: (1)

Unfortunately, very few people want to spend the $1500.00 it would cost to buy a .60 size American made ARF!

TexasAirBoss

My Feedback: (22)

Heck, I can't even get 450 for my Ercoupe, radio and engine included !!

Stafford has gone out of business 3 times now.

wingman371

In my post to where have the builders gone everyone seems to have an excuse. The only one that even comes close to raiting as not one is family. Even then the kids do go to bed and the wife watche's tv or reads etc. Better yet get the kids involved. Theres your time. It is a sad day when another quality AMERICAN MADE company has to shut it's doors to the pressure from ARF kits.

abufletcher

It that really what's going on here? Maybe the product line just wasnt' competetive anymore. For example, I can't imagine that the "Mooney" was ever a big seller. Or maybe, like many long-standing, family owned RC model companies (like WB) family circumstances made is impossible to continue.

Mode One

And another quality kit manufacturer bites the dust!

Abu, go to the thread posted in the first post. This post appears written by one of the principles of the company. In it, he gives his clear opinion on what transpired to cause the business' failure.

SoCalSal

My Feedback: (16)

It is very hard to sell a complete plane anywhere. Online selling is even harder and I think it is because the potential buyer does not really know or trust the skills of the builder. Think about what recourse a buyer has online if he gets a piece of junk???
Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying yours is nor anyone else's is. It is just the way people think.
Funny how many people will drop their pants for a "Factory" ARF ARC RTF and not even know the quialty involved. But if a privet person has built the thing there is so much doubt.

I have been building a couple of kits in the last month for some locals. The ONLY reason they trust me is they have seen my planes and feel I know what I'm doing. I do not really want to build for others but it helps pay for my planes. Building for others takes a lot of time from my free time so my stuff has to wait.

BobH

My Feedback: (2)

Back when cars were first introduced buggy Mfg's were reluctant to design and build any thing other than buggies. Most of them went out of business but not all. The business of business is.... business.
If you make a product that people want and are willing to pay for it sells; if not you either change or close the doors. You can't stay in business making what YOU want if it doesn't sell for what ever reasons. Hence is the case with Stafford Mfg.
Don't blame the customer.. he is after all.. always right.

Helijack

Excellent statement. My son, with my help, is building a Martin guitar for his senior project. The 'intimacy' of this is bringing the two of us closer to each other. My son who never built anything but legos, seems to be enjoying himself (17 year old). I am enjoying it too, using my modeling skills, building skills, woodworking skills, and years of scratch building ..... and sharing them with him.

A lot of kids don't care about planes and models and such, so when you can get them going utilize that.

Sorry for digressing, seems we have a good grasp on why folks like Stafford have to close. The Almight Dollar.
Jack

Mode One

Why was this response in reply to me? I said nothing about customers, business, offering kits as opposed to ARFs RTFs, etc., etc. All I said was "Another quality kit manufacturer has bitten the dust" and told Abu where he could locate information on the original posters opinion on the companies demise!

However, now I feel compelled to give my opinion and the following applies: I hate to see kits cease to be and kit manufacturers go out of business. 50% of my enjoyment of this hobby comes from building models! ARFs and RTFs, hold little interest for me. Unless you have 32 years as a small business owner and 25 years in manufacturing, it's unlikely you can tell me much about business! It had crossed my mind to ask why Stafford had not jumped on the "ARF Band Wagon" like all the rest of the manufacturers which are likely holding on to staying in business by the tips of their fingernails! However, I thought doing so to be insensitive, when the person originating the post might be one of the principles of Jack Stafford Models.

If you have no concerns about the amount of jobs leaving this country and being done overseas, obviously your job has not been threatened YET!

SCALECRAFT

My Feedback: (13)

Hi All

In this global market place, where the U.S. can't control price and wage as much, we are starting to see the price fixing and job/wage security (unions) fall apart as it naturally had to, given enough time.

The poor Chinese kids who make products for us rich, and not so rich Americans, tried to buy our oil companies not so long ago. Impressive. So I don't feel so bad for them. I feel bad for our children of the working class. Learn chinese.

So who is using some of the communist ideas (controls) and who is the global capitalist? Economic controls in any form do not work well, ask the USSR. No one volunteers to pay more for something they can get cheaper of relatively equal quality. No one has incentive to perform if they cannot be terminate

Hopefully the Chinese will have to raise their wages one day, and maybe then the US can get back in the game.

Maybe it will be the global warming concerns. Right!

Just my two yen worth, I don't know how much that is in American

Steve

BobH

My Feedback: (2)

Sorry.. my response wasn't to you it was an opinion on business in general. I have plenty of experience in business too and I know the simple truth that if you don't offer the customer what they want you don't stay in business.
It makes no difference if it's an arf or a kit your product has to have a market. There are kit Manufacturers that remain in business and don't sell arf's. They have found their nitch and it works for them.
I think Abu was asking that very question.. why aren't the kits that are being produced being sold? Is it cost alone or is it something else. No one should blame arf's for everything we don't like. To do that would be a mistake IMHO.

abufletcher

First, I don't really know anything about Jack Stafford Models and even less about business. But I agree with Bob; not everything can be blamed on "those damn Chinese made ARFs." Selling kits is always going to be a niche business. And like lots of niche businesses they are often labors of love of minimal profitability. Or a side business on top of a "day job."

The buzz on the net was that Jack Stafford models were "builder's models" -- and this seems to have meant different things to different modelers. For some this phrase seems to call to mind classic models that gave builders exactly what they wanted. For others it seems to have implied that the models were "hard to build" if you weren't already an experienced builder.

BUSA has built a solid reputation (and a solid business) on the image of "easy to build and easy flying" models of classic aircraft. Flair in the UK had largely the same business plan but had trouble and ended up selling to new owners and moving into ARFs as a way to be able to continue to offer their classic kits.

Mode One

I also agree about producing a product for which there is a market. However, I will let OldScaleGuy have his say in what he feels the problem was for his company. I'm not a kit nor an ARF producer, so I think he knows quite a bit more then I about this line of work. The ARF manufacturers would not be selling ARFs if the market demanded kits. So, the real question is, why doesn't the market want kits?

rrudytoo

My Feedback: (27)

Now, there's a good question! I certainly don't claim to have the answer but I do have a few hunches. One is that we, as Americans, work too much and have such busy lives that there simply isn't as much time to build.......or do much of anything else, for that matter...........as we once had. Another is that ARF's are still a relatively new item in our hobby. Had ARF's been available, say, 30 or 40 years ago, the kit manufacturers may have suffered declining sales long before now. Yet another thought is the instant gratification society wants more and more of each day. ARF's come closest to that end in our hobby. I'm a builder myself but it sometimes gets old working on the same project for months, occassionally years. Heck, even I bought an ARF once. Hated it. Gave it away.

One thing is for sure, though: ARF's are getting better all the time and fewer and fewer kits and plans-built planes are showing up at the local club field. There will always be builders.........those who don't want a "belly button" airplane........but there won't be as many of them. Too bad. [&o]

Al

abufletcher

Are there actually fewer kits available today than there were at any specific given time in the past? It seems to me that there are quite a lot of kits out there. And while it probably true that there are fewer "self-build" models at the field today, I'd imagine that in the past many of the people who today would just buy an ARF would have just stuck together some non-scale kit.

So are there actually fewer quality scale kits today? Or are there actually more quality scale kits today?

I guess what I'm saying is that kit-builders can be further subdivided into those who just build a kit to have something to fly (e.g. funfly kits, Cadets, trainers, 4 stars, etc.) and those that build more serious scale kits. There's no doubt that ARFs are replacing the first category. And that's just fine with me. I don't see why anyone has to build a trainer. I sure didn't. And even though I love building scale models, I'd never waste a single minute of building time putting together a non-scale model like an ugly stik or funfly.

On the other end, kit manufacturers are up against the fact that the really skilled builders don't even need a kit. They can scratch build any aircraft they want. So kits fill a very specific market niche, beyond the level of the folk that just want to fly a model but below the scratch/plan-builders.

Mode One

It is dangerous and foolish to make a statement like: "we, as Americans, work too much and have such busy lives that there simply isn't as much time to build.......or do much of anything else, for that matter...........as we once had". This statement is very short sighted and totally incorrect! You are claiming that "we" work harder then the rest of the world and "we" also work harder now then our parents, grand parents, great grand parents...etc, did.

These statements are chauvinistic to the rest of the world and not giving great deserving credit to the hard work of our for-bearers!

Oh, Abu, take it from me, there are far fewer kits available today, then there were in the not so distant past.

rcmiket

There's no stopping it so enjoy the ride. There was a time the only way to have a R/C radio was to build it, fuel brew it and so on. Times change. There are still plenty of plans and kit cutters out there to fill the void. Don't complain about something we have brought on ourselves. If you see something you want but it. Never know what tomorrow will bring.

Stickbuilder

Good morinig all, and Happy New Year. I am saddened by the news that another grand old Kit manufacturer and plan sales company has succumbed to the ARF infection. You may, as BobH, posted not wish to blame the influx of the ARF movement, and you would be correct in doing so. The proliferation of ARF, and RTF model airplanes is not the problem, but rather the symptoms of what is wrong within this hobby. The actual disease is the desire for instant gratification, and the manufacturer's being willing to supply the cure for that desire. We have (as a society) lost our willingness to wait, and/or work for the thing that we most desire. There is no self reliance, or discipline left any longer.

As to the notion that there was something wrong with Jack Stafford models airplanes, let me soundly inform you that there was not. Over the years I have built several of their pfferings for others, and they were wonderfully engineered and cut models.

The entire problem with this hobby (if you want to call it a problem) is that YOU are not willing to build something that you can now buy. You want it NOW and damn the idea of doing it yourself. You have forgotten how to build (if you in fact ever learned) and are ready to jump on anyone who suggests that you should know how do build it yourself, or at least be willing to learn how to do it. I have been party to several threads that were discussing the ARF vs Build thing, and should someone suggest that the build kit was in any manner superior to an ARF, the person making that statement is tarred and feathered to a fare thee well. Well, here is graphic proof that the problem within this industry is real.

Jack Stafford model kits will (and I'll cover all bets on this) become very desirable, and as with the Pica kits, will become sought out on e-bay, and will begin bringing stupid prices. Will the bulk of them be built? Not likely, since so many of you have never troubled yourselves to learn how to do anything other than assemble sub assemblies, but will rather become hoarded items of great value, since there is a scarcity of them. It's enough to make a grown man cry.

If you want to see what is the major reason for the decline of kits in this hobby, it's simple...GO AND LOOK IN THE MIRROR.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

abufletcher

It would be interesting to put together a list of "great kits" that are no longer available. Now from my perspective for a kit to "make" this list, it should be a kit for a scale model. And it should be better than any other kit of the same aircraft that's still available. Or if not exactly "better" it should have some quality that sets it aside (i.e. a quality that would make it competitive in the kit market today).

Equally interesting would be a wish list for kits that have never been available. Something for present and future kit manufacturers to think about.

In terms of the offerings of any particular kit maker, it's interesting that the number of kits increases with time. For example, BUSA, AZM, Proctor and GTM have added kits to their lineup over the years yet you can still get the "classic" kits that these companies cut their teeth on. for example Glenn's DrI or Proctor's Nieuport 28.

Mode One

Why would we want to keep the list restricted to scale model kits? My interests include fun fly and other types of planes then just scale!